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Quote (Cato @ Aug. 14 2009,23:24) I think it is not a matter of trusting God, for I most certainly do. What I don't trust is people or books that tell me what God's will is. I don't trust that creator of the entire universe would have a favorite people (conveniently the people who wrote the scripture in the first place) much less be concerned with minor dietary habits. People accept scripture as such because they were raised that way and told not to question God, Just like all the good people throughout the Islamic world are taught to accept the Koran as God's word.
Good Morning Cato,The Israelites witnessed many signs and wonders leaving Egypt and also later in the wilderness. None of these however worked to give full trust in YHWH. When there was no sign of food, at the thought they might die, they quickly wished they were back in Egypt, showing a lack of faith. When Moses went up on the Mountain they made themselves a false idol to worship. I said that they were stupid, I think the better word would have been that they were STILL very ignorant as to WHO the one True God was. Coming out of Egypt they had all sorts of ideas about many gods, so who could really blame them. Trust and Faith can certainly be something difficult to build, and obviously it’s a process where dishing out discipline is necessary. The punishments given by YHWH often seem extremely harsh, as of right now without taking time for further thought, I can only give what is probably a dissatisfying explanation, that just as a parents ways seem cruel and unreasonable to a child or teenager, so like a child that is what we often determine are God’s ways unto us.
The truth that the bible teaches is that we are ALL chosen.
YHWH has chosen ALL of us to receive eternal life, some however will receive it before others. Man is an ignorant creature that must learn from it’s more intelligent Creator. The bible shows that God’s achievement to bring all people into the knowledge of the truth depends on the dynamic of leadership and influence.
Keeping to the understanding that the transliterated Hebrew word Ra’ represents dysfunction and NOT EVIL, I think we can better understand scripture. Not that I don’t believe that the word evil does not have it’s place in scripture, because it most certainly does. If we look at false gods and peoples superstitious beliefs that is certainly NOT an example of evil, it is an example of ignorance. People were always concerned about food and it’s abundance or lack thereof. They prayed to gods of their own imaginations of which had no power and could bring them nothing, thus it served to them to be of no value or function. The process of God bringing all nations unto Faith in Him had to start somewhere and so He chose first to make Himself known to the Israelites. With a whole lot happening in between the time YHWH called the Israelites out of Egypt and made Himself known to them, and our current time now where they seem to considerably still lack rightful knowledge of Him, He is certainly not finished with them. Now The Thinker has shown us that there is no true race of Jews left, we still know however that their ancestry, though not pure, does, and they still feel that Israel is their home and their land as YHWH promised them. As we know from scripture Jerusalem is the beginning of where Jesus will establish His Father’s Kingdom. The nation of Israel will be the center of the beginning of our Heavenly Father’s Kingdom, and thus the people living there will too. My understanding thus far is that Jesus will return to Jerusalem and be the Messiah that the Jews had always been expecting, and they, along with all of YHWH’s true followers that exist all through out the world, will together become the Leaders that bring all other peoples and nations into the knowledge, faith and love of YHWH.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,03:01) WJ your question, from the top of the page has morphed this way and that as you dodge the bullets. It was, originally: Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays?
You just do not get it do you?Hitler claimed to be a Christian. But he wasn't no more than those who murder and kill in the name of Judeo Christianity are Judeo Christians!
How hard is that for even a simple mind to understand? The NT Scriptures give us examples of true “Christians”!
WJ
Your entire post is circular, but I will touch on this…
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,03:41) I think in others’ eyes too it is the right thing to oppose religious persecution. If you were being persecuted I would stand up for your rights too. But you are not the persecutee, you are the persecutor.
OK lets test that!Would you stand up for an independent organization or church that believes gay acts are sin and are being attacked and forced to accept them in their organization as well as force them to change their bylaws to accomodate them?
Simple answer, yes or no will suffice!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 14 2009,13:45) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 08 2009,07:30) Paladin, So the question remains:
Was the ingestion of shellfish ever evil?
How exactly would you define the word evil, What is True?The Ancient Hebrew Research Center defines the transliterated Hebrew word Ra`, to be defined as meaning dysfunctional. The King James bible translates the word Ra’ as evil 442 times, wickedness 59, and wicked 25. Booo!
My understanding of YHWH my Creator, is that He is the designer of highly complex and sophisticated systems that function under great order and precision. Of course when He introduced death with it’s deterioration process, many created systems of supreme functioning gave way to processes of dysfunction and destruction.
YHWH as our Designer knows the best way for mankind to function as a whole and as individuals. Righteousness is the equation of which man needs within himself to be of supreme functioning.
My understanding is that YHWH has complete control over mankind, we are easily influenced and manipulated little creatures. If you’ve ever read Guns Germs and Steele, by Jared Diamond and kept YHWH in mind with what scripture tells us, it gives you a very interesting perspective on life. YHWH as our Creator and the person of which controls such things as weather, natural resources and intelligence, you could easily see exactly how YHWH has CAUSED everything in history to come about. Man to YHWH is so ridiculously predictable it’s truly rather pathetic.
Back to the question, why the meat laws?
Eating certain foods during that time period would have had to have created some sort of dysfunction for the developing nation and people of Israel.
It seems clear that YHWH wanted to keep the Israelites away from pagan nations. Possible that maybe YHWH gave the Israelites rules that would distinguish them from the pagans. Laws and Rituals unlike those of the pagans that would work to keep Israelites separate from other cultures? Human nature reflects the disposition to stay close to your own kind out of ignorance and fear. If YHWH wanted to keep the Hebrews isolated, giving them culturally unusual laws and rituals would certainly do that.
It would have been dysfunctional to the developing nation of Israel if they would have mingled with the surrounding pagan cultures. Pagans had unusual customs themselves developed through ignorance and superstition. Speaking from the viewpoint that YHWH is true, another possibility is that the pagan rituals done for their false gods contained certain foods, and therefore by YHWH making those foods unclean He would be further deterring the Israelites from worshipping those false gods, which of course worshiping those false gods would be dysfunctional.
Another idea is that maybe the food laws were set in place because the meat was truly unclean at that time. Maybe YHWH was using germs in food to control the population of outside nations, so He didn’t want the Israelites to eat them. Having a nation that is suppose to be growing and thriving will not occur if everyone is eating tainted meat!
An Israelite not following the food law at that time would clearly not be trusting in YHWH, and YHWH’s purpose is always under a purpose of creating function, therefore IMO it does not really make the person eating selfish evil, it just makes them stupid for not trusting in YHWH!! …….and acting stupid is always rather dysfunctional.
Given your premise, your explanation, while containing a lot of speculation, sounds plausible. However, when an individual broke one of those “unusual” laws, that person often paid for it with his life, like the man who picked up sticks on the sabbath. In your opinion, is it befitting of a holy God to have individually “dysfunctional” people exterminated?Paladin wrote:
Quote What history? What you have presented is certainly not history. It is a corrupted account of what really happened. To correct your ignorance would require a much longer post than I care to entertain here and now.
Corrupted? Ignorant? I quoted and paraphrased scripture. Surely you can devote a few seconds to point out what part of my post was “corrupted” and what salient points I left out in my ignorance.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 15 2009,07:59) Paladin wrote: Quote What history? What you have presented is certainly not history. It is a corrupted account of what really happened. To correct your ignorance would require a much longer post than I care to entertain here and now.
Corrupted? Ignorant? I quoted and paraphrased scripture. Surely you can devote a few seconds to point out what part of my post was “corrupted” and what salient points I left out in my ignorance.
It will require more than a simple response to your question.I will try to post a new thread showing the difference between the covenants that may answer your questions.
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote You just proved my point! Not a single example or any shred of evidence that the early 1st century Christian Church committed acts of violence against any part of humanity.
The best historical record we have of that is the NT scriptures!
Please show me some examples there. All you have done is shown what religious men have done in contrast to what the scriptures teach!
Heck, you can find the same thing happening in all religions, the Muslim terrorist is a good example!
You need to read more carefully. I clearly said:
Quote Christian violence is a reflection of the degree to which Christians hold power in a given society. Can you name a Christian nation that was dominated by openly religious leaders, (i.e. no separation of church and state), that wasn't violent towards non-Christians? 1st Century Christians held no power, so they were in no position to persecute anyone. But, as soon as Christians gained power, persecution by Christians became the norm.
The point of that list was to refute your statement that Christian violence was constrained to the “middle ages and a few random acts”.
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 15 2009,03:22) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 15 2009,07:59) Paladin wrote: Quote What history? What you have presented is certainly not history. It is a corrupted account of what really happened. To correct your ignorance would require a much longer post than I care to entertain here and now.
Corrupted? Ignorant? I quoted and paraphrased scripture. Surely you can devote a few seconds to point out what part of my post was “corrupted” and what salient points I left out in my ignorance.
It will require more than a simple response to your question.I will try to post a new thread showing the difference between the covenants that may answer your questions.
That's fine, but it would be nice to have a specific response to my post, given your specific accusation.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 15 2009,04:02) The Israelites witnessed many signs and wonders leaving Egypt and also later in the wilderness. None of these however worked to give full trust in YHWH. When there was no sign of food, at the thought they might die, they quickly wished they were back in Egypt, showing a lack of faith. When Moses went up on the Mountain they made themselves a false idol to worship. I said that they were stupid, I think the better word would have been that they were STILL very ignorant as to WHO the one True God was. Coming out of Egypt they had all sorts of ideas about many gods, so who could really blame them. Trust and Faith can certainly be something difficult to build, and obviously it’s a process where dishing out discipline is necessary. The punishments given by YHWH often seem extremely harsh, as of right now without taking time for further thought, I can only give what is probably a dissatisfying explanation, that just as a parents ways seem cruel and unreasonable to a child or teenager, so like a child that is what we often determine are God’s ways unto us.
JLI take it you are using the exodus as a kind of fable or parable. The exodus never happened, of course.
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 14 2009,16:29) WorshippingJesus wrote: Quote You just proved my point! Not a single example or any shred of evidence that the early 1st century Christian Church committed acts of violence against any part of humanity.
The best historical record we have of that is the NT scriptures!
Please show me some examples there. All you have done is shown what religious men have done in contrast to what the scriptures teach!
Heck, you can find the same thing happening in all religions, the Muslim terrorist is a good example!
You need to read more carefully. I clearly said:
Quote Christian violence is a reflection of the degree to which Christians hold power in a given society. Can you name a Christian nation that was dominated by openly religious leaders, (i.e. no separation of church and state), that wasn't violent towards non-Christians? 1st Century Christians held no power, so they were in no position to persecute anyone. But, as soon as Christians gained power, persecution by Christians became the norm.
The point of that list was to refute your statement that Christian violence was constrained to the “middle ages and a few random acts”.
WitIs there anything between your ears that is stopping them up?
The term “Christian” was coined by the NT followers of Jesus!
The Greek word “Christianos” means…
A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST or to be Christ like!
When someone ceases to be a follower of Christ or Christ like, they are no longer CHRISTIANS or in most cases never were but simply imposters.
When you can give me a NT example from which the word “Christians” was first spoken of the followers of Christ that commited any violence on humanity then you would have an argument.
But all you have is a huge strawman!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,04:07) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,03:01) WJ your question, from the top of the page has morphed this way and that as you dodge the bullets. It was, originally: Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays?
You just do not get it do you?Hitler claimed to be a Christian. But he wasn't no more than those who murder and kill in the name of Judeo Christianity are Judeo Christians!
How hard is that for even a simple mind to understand? The NT Scriptures give us examples of true “Christians”!
WJ
I do not have a simple mind.What difference should it make to me who claims to be christian and who else claims they are not? When christians claim stuff in the name of their religion then it IS a christian claim! I have no responsibility for what infighting amongst the adherents of a religious delusion is necessary to correctly ascertaining the nature of things that do not exist, or are based on fantasy tales.
You seem to want everyone to claim they are christian but then retain the right to decide who is and who is not, by yourself. It would seem that out of all those 39,000 denominations totaling 2.1 billion SELF-IDENTIFIED christians, there is only actually one, calling himself WorshippingJesus, coincidentally posting here.
If I have this wrong, and there are others, perhaps you might estimate how many of those 2.1 billion are TrueChristiansTM according to you.
Have you told Nick that he might not make the cut?
By the way, if this counts as any kind of interet debate then I claim victory because you were the first to mention the insane Roman Catholic German with the silly moustache.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,17:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,04:07) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,03:01) WJ your question, from the top of the page has morphed this way and that as you dodge the bullets. It was, originally: Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays?
You just do not get it do you?Hitler claimed to be a Christian. But he wasn't no more than those who murder and kill in the name of Judeo Christianity are Judeo Christians!
How hard is that for even a simple mind to understand? The NT Scriptures give us examples of true “Christians”!
WJ
I do not have a simple mind.What difference should it make to me who claims to be christian and who else claims they are not? When christians claim stuff in the name of their religion then it IS a christian claim! I have no responsibility for what infighting amongst the adherents of a religious delusion is necessary to correctly ascertaining the nature of things that do not exist, or are based on fantasy tales.
You seem to want everyone to claim they are christian but then retain the right to decide who is and who is not, by yourself. It would seem that out of all those 39,000 denominations totaling 2.1 billion SELF-IDENTIFIED christians, there is only actually one, calling himself WorshippingJesus, coincidentally posting here.
If I have this wrong, and there are others, perhaps you might estimate how many of those 2.1 billion are TrueChristiansTM according to you.
Have you told Nick that he might not make the cut?
By the way, if this counts as any kind of interet debate then I claim victory because you were the first to mention the insane Roman Catholic German with the silly moustache.
Stuart
StuI do not care what you claim. Because you just realized how much of a strawman you have been trying to build!
So claim the victory if you like.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,09:23) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,17:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,04:07) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,03:01) WJ your question, from the top of the page has morphed this way and that as you dodge the bullets. It was, originally: Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays?
You just do not get it do you?Hitler claimed to be a Christian. But he wasn't no more than those who murder and kill in the name of Judeo Christianity are Judeo Christians!
How hard is that for even a simple mind to understand? The NT Scriptures give us examples of true “Christians”!
WJ
I do not have a simple mind.What difference should it make to me who claims to be christian and who else claims they are not? When christians claim stuff in the name of their religion then it IS a christian claim! I have no responsibility for what infighting amongst the adherents of a religious delusion is necessary to correctly ascertaining the nature of things that do not exist, or are based on fantasy tales.
You seem to want everyone to claim they are christian but then retain the right to decide who is and who is not, by yourself. It would seem that out of all those 39,000 denominations totaling 2.1 billion SELF-IDENTIFIED christians, there is only actually one, calling himself WorshippingJesus, coincidentally posting here.
If I have this wrong, and there are others, perhaps you might estimate how many of those 2.1 billion are TrueChristiansTM according to you.
Have you told Nick that he might not make the cut?
By the way, if this counts as any kind of interet debate then I claim victory because you were the first to mention the insane Roman Catholic German with the silly moustache.
Stuart
StuI do not care what you claim. Because you just realized how much of a strawman you have been trying to build!
So claim the victory if you like.
WJ
No reasoned response again. What strawman? How many christians do you think there are in the world? A simple number will suffice!Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,17:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,09:23) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,17:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,04:07) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,03:01) WJ your question, from the top of the page has morphed this way and that as you dodge the bullets. It was, originally: Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays?
You just do not get it do you?Hitler claimed to be a Christian. But he wasn't no more than those who murder and kill in the name of Judeo Christianity are Judeo Christians!
How hard is that for even a simple mind to understand? The NT Scriptures give us examples of true “Christians”!
WJ
I do not have a simple mind.What difference should it make to me who claims to be christian and who else claims they are not? When christians claim stuff in the name of their religion then it IS a christian claim! I have no responsibility for what infighting amongst the adherents of a religious delusion is necessary to correctly ascertaining the nature of things that do not exist, or are based on fantasy tales.
You seem to want everyone to claim they are christian but then retain the right to decide who is and who is not, by yourself. It would seem that out of all those 39,000 denominations totaling 2.1 billion SELF-IDENTIFIED christians, there is only actually one, calling himself WorshippingJesus, coincidentally posting here.
If I have this wrong, and there are others, perhaps you might estimate how many of those 2.1 billion are TrueChristiansTM according to you.
Have you told Nick that he might not make the cut?
By the way, if this counts as any kind of interet debate then I claim victory because you were the first to mention the insane Roman Catholic German with the silly moustache.
Stuart
StuI do not care what you claim. Because you just realized how much of a strawman you have been trying to build!
So claim the victory if you like.
WJ
No reasoned response again. What strawman? How many christians do you think there are in the world? A simple number will suffice!Stuart
StuDoes it matter?
Christians do not commit violence on humanity, or they are not Christians at all but merely imposters!
Hey Stu, why don't you look for a homosexual forum and post the same stuff at them that you post against believers.
I know you won't do that because you are obviously for homosexuality and against christianity.You are allowed that choice and can persecute any group you like. Such is the gift of free will.
But let's not pretend that we do not dislike a group.
You dislike Believers/Christians plain and simple and you persecute to fulfil that condition of your heart.
Might as well be straight up about it. You are not the only one, after all.Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2009,18:32) Hey Stu, why don't you look for a homosexual forum and post the same stuff at them that you post against believers.
I know you won't do that because you are obviously for homosexuality and against christianity.You are allowed that choice and can persecute any group you like. Such is the gift of free will.
But let's not pretend that we do not dislike a group.
You dislike Believers/Christians plain and simple and you persecute to fulfil that condition of your heart.
Might as well be straight up about it. You are not the only one, after all.
Hi t8Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2009,18:32) But let's not pretend that we do not dislike a group.
You dislike Believers/Christians plain and simple and you persecute to fulfil that condition of your heart.
Might as well be straight up about it. You are not the only one, after all.How true!
WJ
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 15 2009,08:32) Paladin,Aug. wrote:[quote=WhatIsTrue,Aug. 15 2009,07:59]Paladin wrote:
Quote What history? What you have presented is certainly not history. It is a corrupted account of what really happened. To correct your ignorance would require a much longer post than I care to entertain here and now.
(WIT)Corrupted? Ignorant? I quoted and paraphrased scripture. Surely you can devote a few seconds to point out what part of my post was “corrupted” and what salient points I left out in my ignorance.
(P) It will require more than a simple response to your question.
I will try to post a new thread showing the difference between the covenants that may answer your questions.
(WIT) That's fine, but it would be nice to have a specific response to my post, given your specific accusation.
Understood. I would take my time, and give you a “best effort” response, rather than just give you a “get rid of him” ten word “covers nothing” response.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,09:33) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,17:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,09:23) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,17:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2009,04:07) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,03:01) WJ your question, from the top of the page has morphed this way and that as you dodge the bullets. It was, originally: Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays?
You just do not get it do you?Hitler claimed to be a Christian. But he wasn't no more than those who murder and kill in the name of Judeo Christianity are Judeo Christians!
How hard is that for even a simple mind to understand? The NT Scriptures give us examples of true “Christians”!
WJ
I do not have a simple mind.What difference should it make to me who claims to be christian and who else claims they are not? When christians claim stuff in the name of their religion then it IS a christian claim! I have no responsibility for what infighting amongst the adherents of a religious delusion is necessary to correctly ascertaining the nature of things that do not exist, or are based on fantasy tales.
You seem to want everyone to claim they are christian but then retain the right to decide who is and who is not, by yourself. It would seem that out of all those 39,000 denominations totaling 2.1 billion SELF-IDENTIFIED christians, there is only actually one, calling himself WorshippingJesus, coincidentally posting here.
If I have this wrong, and there are others, perhaps you might estimate how many of those 2.1 billion are TrueChristiansTM according to you.
Have you told Nick that he might not make the cut?
By the way, if this counts as any kind of interet debate then I claim victory because you were the first to mention the insane Roman Catholic German with the silly moustache.
Stuart
StuI do not care what you claim. Because you just realized how much of a strawman you have been trying to build!
So claim the victory if you like.
WJ
No reasoned response again. What strawman? How many christians do you think there are in the world? A simple number will suffice!Stuart
StuDoes it matter?
Christians do not commit violence on humanity, or they are not Christians at all but merely imposters!
I see. So let's take all those who 'follow Jesus', but have ripped out Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Romans from their bible in order for there to be no question of them preaching from a book that incites violence, then shall we count them?Hmmm… I bet that is not a very big number.
Stuart
t8! Hello!
Quote Hey Stu, why don't you look for a homosexual forum and post the same stuff at them that you post against believers.
This now seems to be a homosexual forum. I did not post on the subject first. Why don’t you address your suggestion to Paladin?Quote I know you won't do that because you are obviously for homosexuality and against christianity.
I am for just treatment for humans. As far as I have been able to tell reading here, christianity does not share that objective.Quote You are allowed that choice and can persecute any group you like. Such is the gift of free will.
I have never persecuted anyone.Quote But let's not pretend that we do not dislike a group. You dislike Believers/Christians plain and simple and you persecute to fulfil that condition of your heart.
I do not dislike believers, I pity them. Christianity is a nasty affliction, and I am just doing my bit to help the sufferers! You may not see it as helping, but then the illness is an insidious one, like AIDs that strikes at your defenses.Quote Might as well be straight up about it. You are not the only one, after all.
Is there meant to be hidden imagery in that statement?!Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,18:56) [I see. So let's take all those who 'follow Jesus', but have ripped out Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Romans from their bible in order for there to be no question of them preaching from a book that incites violence, then shall we count them? Hmmm… I bet that is not a very big number.
Stuart
Since it doesn't do any good to repeat oneself over and over again to someone who has closed their ears, then maybe if I speak to this cyber wall the vibrations may get through!
“WE ARE NOT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT ANY LONGER”!
“WE ARE UNDER A NEW COVENANT”!
Now show me where Jesus who introduced the New Covenant incited his followers to commit violence in any form against humanity? Then show us if any of his followers carried out any acts of violence!
Shall we say STRAWMAN!
WJ
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