Homosexuality

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,07:57)

If the truth be known, most everyone has probably at some time in their life been approached by some one gay for sex!

So what is YOUR point of the poll WJ?

Are you trying to prove that because homosexuals are out there trying to find lovers that means their agenda is also that they are trying to make EVERYONE a homosexual?

It seems that most people who become gay not through experimentation, like all the bisexual girls we have now a days, but because during puberty they find themselves attracted to the same sex, wish that they were strait. Those who find themselves to be gay at the onset of puberty usually have an identity crisis and eventually through support of older gays they then become PROUD.

I think you are totally wrong WJ in your assertion that ALL gays have an agenda to make everyone gay, I believe the truth is more likely to be that deep down inside many gays really wished that they were strait, and as a matter of FACT not only have I read about countless gays wishing they were not gay, but I know personally someone who wishes he did not have gay feelings.

So clearly your thinking is delusional WJ and your agenda seems to be to spread a fear of gay people under FALSE notions about them. Not cool man  

[Cato]

Dear Thinker,
Tell me what was in my post you quoted that was incorrect and thus indicative of a disregard of facts?  My points being:

1. Gay does not equate with pedophile.
2. Pedophiles are both gay and straight.
3. The vast majority of sexual predators are men.
4. The vast majority of sexual abuse victims are women.

Your point and  statement that “the homosexual is primarily pederastic”, you supported by looking at practices of ancient greece.  You then extrapolated that the morals of that particular time, culture and place are germane and predictive to modern homosexual behaviour.  This may or may not be true, but there is no evidence to support such a blanket statement as you made.  Furthermore if the pedphilia of which your source says concerned boys 12 to 16 primarily, then I could add that most of the ancient world's heterosexual men could likewise be classified pedaphiles.  To quote the encyclopedia of ancient Greece “at Athens during the classical period the average age of marriage for a man was around 30 while, in order to ensure the virginal status, the bride was usually half his age”.  So should I claim that based on ancient greeks, heterosexual men are primarily pedaphiles also?  Back then having sex with a young teenage girl was normal, today we would call it statutory rape.   Should I make the same conclusions about modern straight men today as you make with gays?

[WhatIsTrue]

Paladin wrote:

Quote

And some laws were simply to see if Israel would obey him.

I presume that you would put the dietary laws in this category.  Yes?

If so, why would God call shellfish an abomination?  Was that just a bit of hyperbole on his part?

Furthermore, if he used the same strong word for the consumption of shellfish as he did for homosexuality, is it smart for you to assume that he doesn't still feel that way about shellfish?  Wouldn't this fall under the “loving God” category in the new convenant, (i.e. honoring God's disdain for shellfish by abstaining from it)?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 05 2009,21:50)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 05 2009,04:32) Quote Estimates of the occurrence of exclusive homosexuality range from >1% to 10% of the population, usually finding there are slightly more gay men than lesbians. Source What's your source? I wasn't far off. Even if we go with 10% there is still a whole lot of homosexuals who prey on children given their small population. This is a clear indicator. If the homosexual population was reversed and they were the super majority sex crimes against children would be much more rampant that it is now. My point still stands. thinker

I think that your math is off.

If 10% of rape victims are male, and 10% of the population is gay, then, assuming all things equal, homosexuals are commiting rape directly in proportion to their prevalence in society.

Of course, this whole issue can't be reduced to simple math, as the sexual orientation of the rapists and the rape victims are not attainable from the given data.

As Cato pointed out elsewhere though, if you removed all homosexuals from the planet, the vast majority of sexual abuse, which overwhelmingly involves female victims, would still take place.

[Jodi Lee]

Strong's Number:   08262 Browse Lexicon
Original WordWord Origin
#qXa primitive root
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
ShaqatsTWOT – 2459
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
shaw-kats'    Verb
Definition

  1. (Piel) to detest, make abominable, count filthy, make detestable
        1. to detest
        2. to make detestable

King James Word Usage – Total: 7
abomination 2, abominable 2, abhor 1, utterly 1, detest 1

Hebrew Word: #qX
Transliterated Word: shaqats
Book to Display: Leviticus
Verse Count: 4

Le 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

Le 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

Le 11:43  Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.

Le 20:25  Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

==============================================

Strong's Number:   08441 Browse Lexicon
Original WordWord Origin
hb[wtact part of (08581)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Tow`ebahTWOT – 2530a
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
to-ay-baw'    Noun Feminine
Definition

  1. a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
        1. in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
        2. in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)

King James Word Usage – Total: 117
abomination 113, abominable thing 2, abominable 2

Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Le 18:26  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

Le 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

Le 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

Le 18:30  Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

Le 20:13  If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

=================================================

The word abomination contains variance to it's severity depending on the ACT to which it is described.

If I were to say, Sue is a BAD person because she likes to repeatedly bring up peoples faults and talk behind their backs, and then say Jill is a BAD person because she physically abuses her children, do we conclude that the separate acts are equally bad since the same word is being used to describe the separate acts? Of course not, we know from the act itself that one is worse then the other, regardless of the fact both acts were described as bad.

This same logic should be applied to the word in the bible that is translated into abomination.

[WhatIsTrue]

JodiLee,

Yes, but in your example, both things are still bad.  You would not expect someone with consistent standards to one day re-classify either action as good or neutral.  Would you?

[KangarooJack]

Cato said:

Quote

So should I claim that based on ancient greeks, heterosexual men are primarily pedaphiles also?  Back then having sex with a young teenage girl was normal, today we would call it statutory rape.   Should I make the same conclusions about modern straight men today as you make with gays?

There is a lot of homosexual pedophilia going on for such a small population of people who are homosexually oriented. Yes you should make the same conclusions I have made because homosexual nature has not changed. It is the Judeo Christian laws that have created the conscience needed that prevent history from repeating itself. That conscience is slowly eroding the more we become a permissive society. Eventually history will repeat itself and we will become like the ancients. Some of us will learn from history and some of us will not.

This is the second time you have been warned.

thinker

[Paladin]

Quote (Cato @ Aug. 06 2009,01:55)

Paladin the whole crux of this discussion is that you believe that having sexual feelings for one's own sex is sin, plain and simple just like theft, murder, etc. This is clearly stated in books such as Leviticus.  Yet you indicate such rules were of the old law and with Jesus were replaced with Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself.  In your view evidently homosexual relations must either interfere with love of God or loving thy neighbor. Others believe that this in no way conflicts with love of God or loving thy neighbor (in some ways its loving thy neighbor too much like thyself). [pun intended].  So where is the sin?

Cato, I am now going to assume something. I am going to assume you either did not read the OP, OR, you are not familiar with the books of the New Testament.

I covered the New Testament comments on the issue in the OP, AS WELL AS the Old testament issues.

Whenever, The new testament covers an issue previously covered in the old testament, it is a sure sign that it is still important to God and his people.

[Paladin]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 06 2009,05:53)

Paladin wrote: Quote And some laws were simply to see if Israel would obey him. I presume that you would put the dietary laws in this category.  Yes? If so, why would God call shellfish an abomination?  Was that just a bit of hyperbole on his part? Furthermore, if he used the same strong word for the consumption of shellfish as he did for homosexuality, is it smart for you to assume that he doesn't still feel that way about shellfish?  Wouldn't this fall under the “loving God” category in the new convenant, (i.e. honoring God's disdain for shellfish by abstaining from it)?

No!

ALL of God's law was given to the children of Israel to see if they would obey him, while they travelled in the desert for forty years, over a route that should have taken just.

It took Israel forty years to travel what should have been an eleven day journey, because they rebelled against God and he made them wander in the wilderness until all the adults died out. In the meantime, they were tested to see if they would obey God's laws or not.

All of God's laws were given to the Jews. Only those which were restated to Christians, were of any effect to those Christians. The dietary laws were not part of the new law. As a matter of fact, that became an issue between Jews who converted to Christ, and Gentiles who converted to Christ. The Jewish converts had a hard time giving up the things of the law.

As for anything being “smart to assume” about God's law, I wouldn't presume such behaviour. I know what God said about such things, and act accordingly.

[Paladin]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 06 2009,06:57)

Strong's Number:   08262 Browse Lexicon Original WordWord Origin #qXa primitive root Transliterated WordTDNT Entry ShaqatsTWOT – 2459 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech shaw-kats'    Verb Definition   1. (Piel) to detest, make abominable, count filthy, make detestable         1. to detest         2. to make detestable King James Word Usage – Total: 7 abomination 2, abominable 2, abhor 1, utterly 1, detest 1 Hebrew Word: #qX Transliterated Word: shaqats Book to Display: Leviticus Verse Count: 4 Le 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Le 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, Le 11:43  Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. Le 20:25  Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. ============================================== Strong's Number:   08441 Browse Lexicon Original WordWord Origin hb[wtact part of (08581) Transliterated WordTDNT Entry Tow`ebahTWOT – 2530a Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech to-ay-baw'    Noun Feminine Definition   1. a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable         1. in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)         2. in ethical sense (of wickedness etc) King James Word Usage – Total: 117 abomination 113, abominable thing 2, abominable 2 Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Le 18:26  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: Le 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) Le 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Le 18:30  Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. Le 20:13  If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. ================================================= The word abomination contains variance to it's severity depending on the ACT to which it is described. If I were to say, Sue is a BAD person because she likes to repeatedly bring up peoples faults and talk behind their backs, and then say Jill is a BAD person because she physically abuses her children, do we conclude that the separate acts are equally bad since the same word is being used to describe the separate acts? Of course not, we know from the act itself that one is worse then the other, regardless of the fact both acts were described as bad. This same logic should be applied to the word in the bible that is translated into abomination.

Very good point. I overlooked that one.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 05 2009,11:18)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,07:57) If the truth be known, most everyone has probably at some time in their life been approached by some one gay for sex! So what is YOUR point of the poll WJ? Are you trying to prove that because homosexuals are out there trying to find lovers that means their agenda is also that they are trying to make EVERYONE a homosexual? It seems that most people who become gay not through experimentation, like all the bisexual girls we have now a days, but because during puberty they find themselves attracted to the same sex, wish that they were strait. Those who find themselves to be gay at the onset of puberty usually have an identity crisis and eventually through support of older gays they then become PROUD. I think you are totally wrong WJ in your assertion that ALL gays have an agenda to make everyone gay, I believe the truth is more likely to be that deep down inside many gays really wished that they were strait, and as a matter of FACT not only have I read about countless gays wishing they were not gay, but I know personally someone who wishes he did not have gay feelings. So clearly your thinking is delusional WJ and your agenda seems to be to spread a fear of gay people under FALSE notions about them. Not cool man

Jodi

Seriously I do not care what you think. Not to be rude, but I have had the experience of gay men trying to molest me, 4 times between the age of 12 and 16.

But my point that they have an agenda is proven by the very fact that they try to push their lifestyles on others by making us all accepting of it.

“Its okay as long as its consentual between two adults”!

Thats bull. Its sin. And true believers should speak the truth.

What do you think the fight to have equal rights in churches as pastors and teachers that do not condone their practices is all about?

Or their pushing for “hate crime” laws to silence those who preach against their lifestyles as being immoral?

This is a free country and free speech is protected unless you are inciting violence or racism against another person or group.

And preaching against their lifestyle as being immoral is no more wrong than preaching against using drugs, or alcholism etc.

I watched a gay rally on TV where the speaker a “dike” they call them was screaming out to the audience they would love to F___ the presidents wife. This was during the Clinton years.

What are these rallys all about but to propagate their lifestyles.

Their agenda is for everyone to accept their lifestyle and if you do not accept it, then you are a bigot and committing a hate crime.

Again, you have your head in the sand if you do not believe the movement does not have a purpose or agenda.

Open your eyes believers. Remember Sodom and Gamorah.

Love the Sinners and hate their sins for God does!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 05 2009,06:03)

It is not sick at all.  There is a story in Richard Dawkins's book of a woman who was sexually abused by a priest, AND had been told that her unsaved four year-old friend who died in tragic circumstances was going to hell because she was not saved. In her opinion she was able to get over the sexual abuse, but was permanently scarred by the nasty christian mythology. I am not saying that victims need no consideration here.  Rather the opposite:  before christians tear into other abuses of young people how about they consider their own nasty mythologies and the inappropriateness of sharing them with children. Stuart

Hi STU

Amazing, you actually believe what that woman believes?

Still sick to believe that something experienced like rape is equal to something that cannot be experienced until death.

But you believe they are equal, the Fairy tales as you call them and the raping of a child! Sick indeed!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cato @ Aug. 05 2009,07:18)

While it may be true that many boys may have been hit up on by older gay men it pales in comparison to the number of  girls hit up on by straight older men.  Perhaps it is not gay or straight but just men in general who are overwhelmingly the sexual predators.

Cato

I think if you have the straight men on the right and the gay men on the left and checked the percentages you would be wrong!

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2009,11:14)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 05 2009,11:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,07:57) If the truth be known, most everyone has probably at some time in their life been approached by some one gay for sex! So what is YOUR point of the poll WJ? Are you trying to prove that because homosexuals are out there trying to find lovers that means their agenda is also that they are trying to make EVERYONE a homosexual? It seems that most people who become gay not through experimentation, like all the bisexual girls we have now a days, but because during puberty they find themselves attracted to the same sex, wish that they were strait. Those who find themselves to be gay at the onset of puberty usually have an identity crisis and eventually through support of older gays they then become PROUD. I think you are totally wrong WJ in your assertion that ALL gays have an agenda to make everyone gay, I believe the truth is more likely to be that deep down inside many gays really wished that they were strait, and as a matter of FACT not only have I read about countless gays wishing they were not gay, but I know personally someone who wishes he did not have gay feelings. So clearly your thinking is delusional WJ and your agenda seems to be to spread a fear of gay people under FALSE notions about them. Not cool man   Jodi Seriously I do not care what you think. Not to be rude, but I have had the experience of gay men trying to molest me, 4 times between the age of 12 and 16. But my point that they have an agenda is proven by the very fact that they try to push their lifestyles on others by making us all accepting of it. “Its okay as long as its consentual between two adults”! Thats bull. Its sin. And true believers should speak the truth. What do you think the fight to have equal rights in churches as pastors and teachers that do not condone their practices is all about? Or their pushing for “hate crime” laws to silence those who preach against their lifestyles as being immoral? This is a free country and free speech is protected unless you are inciting violence or racism against another person or group. And preaching against their lifestyle as being immoral is no more wrong than preaching against using drugs, or alcholism etc. I watched a gay rally on TV where the speaker a “dike” they call them was screaming out to the audience they would love to F___ the presidents wife. This was during the Clinton years. What are these rallys all about but to propagate their lifestyles. Their agenda is for everyone to accept their lifestyle and if you do not accept it, then you are a bigot and committing a hate crime. Again, you have your head in the sand if you do not believe the movement does not have a purpose or agenda. Open your eyes believers. Remember Sodom and Gamorah. Love the Sinners and hate their sins for God does! WJ

Hey WJ,

I think we really actually agree on this more then we disagree.

I don't deny that gays have an agenda to push their acceptance and that many of them would indeed love to see more of themselves out there and that some do have an agenda to influence people to become gay.

I totally agree with you that our country is turning into Sodom and Gomorrah and is becoming utterly drenched in ALL SORTS of immoral sexual sin.

I fully agree that we should hate the sin and still love the sinner.

One thing that bothers me the most is when gays are complete hypocrites wanting free speech but at the same time want to silence those who want to speak out about homosexuality being wrong and sinful. They speak of tolerance and respect but yet like you said if we disagree with them we are bigots and are committing hate crimes.

What really bothers me is their current push to teach homosexuality in school, in elementary school for crying out loud, as if it is an acceptable normal lifestyle that one should consider choosing for themselves.

Where I disagree with you completely is with your view that the following is true,

“A.  All homosexuals have an agenda of converting as many heterosexuals as possible into homosexuals.”

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2009,14:57)

If the truth be known, most everyone has probably at some time in their life been approached by some one gay for sex!

I am 42 and have never been hit on by a homosexual. I have had several women make such passes at me.

Maybe you put off a subconscious homosexual vibe?

[kejonn]

WJ,

Your overt homophobia is not attractive.

[kejonn]

Are Christians feeling threatened by those who don’t desire the opposite sex?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 05 2009,22:10)

Are Christians feeling threatened by those who don't desire the opposite sex?

Hi kejonn

How are you?

No, its not a fear for perfect love cast out fear.

But it is a concern for the direction our country is taking.

The lifestyles of Homosexuals are sinful, and as believers in the scriptures it is our responsibility to warn them of the pending judgment of God regardless if it is popular or not!

Hope you and yours are doing well!

Keith

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 05 2009,22:08)

WJ, Your overt homophobia is not attractive.

Hi Kejonn

Why? Because I am telling the truth?

I don't hate them, I hate the lifestyle.

I am a victom of their attempted seductions!

I am not afraid of them.

I am willing to stand up for the truth, in Love!

I am not threatening them with violence. But I do have a right to speak my peace, don't I?

Homosexualism is sin. That simple. They can do as they please, and they do not have to heed to a word I say.

That is their right. But I will stand up as much as I can through the legal system to stop them from silencing me through the gize of “hate speach”.

I will stand up and shout as loud as I can that you have no right to try and make my church ordain you as a minister.

Start your own church.

I could go on, hope you get my point.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 05 2009,21:54)

[Where I disagree with you completely is with your view that the following is true, “A.  All homosexuals have an agenda of converting as many heterosexuals as possible into homosexuals.”

Okay, fair enough.

This is what I said in response to WITs question…

“So far “A” is what I see! Why wouldn't that be their agenda?

The first step is to teach that there is nothing wrong with the acts.

Secondly, if they can get everyone to agree to accepting their life style then they will influence more to join their cause”.

So far that is my experience with them. You say not so, ok I accept that!

Thank you for your response.

WJ

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