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There is no question that Saul of Tarsus was a redneck zealot homophobe who did not care about humans.
Who would sweet sinless baby Jesus have stoned first?
Now I remember, Jesus wimped out of punishing an adulteress. Seems the OT laws don't apply after all, even though Saul said they did, if it was he who wrote Timothy.
Christianity can't even get it's brutal story straight.
Stuart
I don't think anyone is trying to deny that predatory behaviour is distressing, and sometimes life-changing for the victim.
Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 05 2009,13:07) Hi stu Quote (Stu @ Aug. 04 2009,14:53) If abrahamists did not preach from a book that contains pronouncements of abomination and incitements to murder for gay people, taken seriously by so many redneck christians, then maybe people would be more honest about their sexual feelings.
Are you making a confession here?
WJ
I do resist the temptation to call people idiots here.Which I will also resist on this occasion.
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 05 2009,13:48) Paladin, Your OP does not explain the nuances between the abomination of shellfish and the abomination of homosexuality as described in Leviticus.
Furthermore, why would something that is abominable to God at one point now be perfectly fine? Is sin really that arbitrary? Is God a moral relativist?
Israel was a Theocracy. That means God was their moral and political leader. When Israel asked for a king, God told them he is their king, and that since they reject him as their king, he would give them what they asked, to their everlasting sorrow.God gave Israel a law which was unlike any law of any nation before or after. But it was limited to the nation of Israel. He gave them some laws to limit the problems they could make for theirselves. He gave them some laws to lay our for them, what they were to do on a daily, weekly, monthly, or annual basis. He gave them laws of ommission (Don't do that) and laws of commission, (Do this). ALL laws made by God had a purpose, whether it was to aid in communication between himself and his people when they were happy, and wanted to share it with him, or when they were sad, or needed to repent of something. And some laws were simply to see if Israel would obey him. He even had laws to accomodate ignorance, for example when a king ignorantly sinned, or a priest, or a member of the community. But all of his laws were for his people, Israel.
When God anointed the Jewish carpenter, Jesus, to preach and heal and begin to build the house of God in a new and living way, he prepared to fulfill the law and make place for a new one.
As Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind, his sacrifice replaced the blood of bulls and goats, which was once the blood of the covenant, but satisfied no more. The old had been fulfilled, and the new had been inaugurated.
All the old dietary laws no longer mean anything. None of the Old Testament 10 commandment laws mean anything. They were a law for a people, for a time.
Under the new covenant law, everything that was incorporated in the 10 commandment law, was reinstituted in the law “Love God, lovve thy neighbor as thyself.”
If one loves his neighbor truly as he loves himself, that eliminates the need for laws against murder, lying, stealing, adultry, false witnessing, gossipping, and any other act that is contrary to the true meaning of “love thy neighbor.”
The only law that did not come into the new covenant was the Sabbath law, which was fulfilled at Jesus' death. Now EVERY DAY is the Lord's day. “TODAY” is the “day of salvation.”
To fail to understand the fulfilling of one law and the application of a new law is to fail to understand the covenants under which God communicates to his people.
You ask “is sin that arbitrary?” Do you know the other name for an “arbitrator?” Try “Mediator.” God did not “arbitrarily” assign guillt to the old covenant, he assined values to it.
Then he gave the people choices that They did not previously enjoy. “Choose you this day whom ye will serve.”
He gave them two landmarks, Mount Ebal, and Mount Gerizim, to serve as reminders, one to remind them of the blessings of the covenant, if they remained faithful. The other to remind them of the curses of the covenant to which they pledged their lives and fortunes.They obeyed, and God blessed them so much other nations sent emmissaries just to look at the splendor of their system.
They rebelled, and God enforced the covenant rules, the curses.It was not an arbitrary arrangement, but was one of agreement. Kinda makes you ponder “Be careful what you agree to.”
It is not sick at all. There is a story in Richard Dawkins's book of a woman who was sexually abused by a priest, AND had been told that her unsaved four year-old friend who died in tragic circumstances was going to hell because she was not saved.
In her opinion she was able to get over the sexual abuse, but was permanently scarred by the nasty christian mythology.
I am not saying that victims need no consideration here. Rather the opposite: before christians tear into other abuses of young people how about they consider their own nasty mythologies and the inappropriateness of sharing them with children.
Stuart
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 05 2009,10:08) FROM THE BOOK “HOW CHRISTIANITY CHANGED THE WORLD” PEDASTRY (PEDOPHILIA)
Many people today know that the Greeks were notorious for their homosexual behavior. But often they do not know that the Greek homosexual was primarily pederasty or pedaphilia, that is, an adult man having sex with a young boy who commonly was between twelve and sixteen years old. Roman literature both before and after the birth of Christ has numerous references, similar to Greek writings, showing that this kind of homosexual behavior was widespread and common.
That Roman homosexuality was largely pederastic is underscored by its own poet Martial. He is rather explicit and unembarrassed in referring to it. To Phaedrus, he writes, “You sleep with well endowed boys” (Epigrams 3.72) To another he says, “You do it with long-haired boys whom you have procured for yourself with your wife's dowry (Epigram's 7.97) So explicit are Martial's writings that he even notes one man was unable to sodomize his boy lover who had diarrhea (Epigram's 11.88). Florence Dupont, a modern historian, writes that the Romans were so obsessed with pederasty that “beardless youths had to be prohibited from taking part in Saturnalia [a festival in honor of Saturn, the harvest god] in order to protect their virtue.”Today's outlawing of pedophilia, that is, and adult having sex with someone who is a juvenile, is the result of Chtistianity's influence. Had Christianity not entered the culture of the Greeks and Romans, where pederasty was common, widespread and accepted, it is doubtful that there would now be laws against child molestation.
(How Christianity Change the World pages 86-87, Alvin J. Schmidt, Zondervan)
To read the entire chapter on homosexuality click on the link below. Then click on chapter 3 “Christianity Elevates Sexual Morality.” All facts are documented and only those who love homosexuals can deny it. We are on our way back to degradation thanks to modern day pagans of which some post here. Some of you people here ought to thank God we Christians exist. And some day you will regret your being our enemies.
http://books.google.com/books?i….f=false
thinker
Thank you for the input.I was mor einterested in demonstrating what God has to say about the issue, but your post certainly points out why God legislated against it.
It is also notable, that the nations God destroyed to make room for Israel, were ALL involved in that behaviour. God will not tollerate it in the U.S. either.
This is why we have a man in the presidency that we have. God is giving us a look at what we deserve for killing all the babies. Abortion and Homosexuality are the depth of depravity to which a naiton falls, before God destroys them.
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 05 2009,22:02) All the old dietary laws no longer mean anything. None of the Old Testament 10 commandment laws mean anything. They were a law for a people, for a time. Under the new covenant law, everything that was incorporated in the 10 commandment law, was reinstituted in the law “Love God, lovve thy neighbor as thyself.”
If one loves his neighbor truly as he loves himself, that eliminates the need for laws against murder, lying, stealing, adultry, false witnessing, gossipping, and any other act that is contrary to the true meaning of “love thy neighbor.”
I would assume that the prohibitions against homosexual relations likewise went out with the dietary laws then?How is the fact that one's make-up leads one to be sexually attracted to the same sex rather then the opposite sex not loving thy neighbor?
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 05 2009,22:15) This is why we have a man in the presidency that we have. God is giving us a look at what we deserve for killing all the babies. Abortion and Homosexuality are the depth of depravity to which a naiton falls, before God destroys them.
Sometimes I am utterly amazed at what people believe. Next you will no doubt tell us crack was created by the CIA, the moon landings were faked and Elvis is still alive?While I did not vote for the President and I think he is spending too much and has a strong socialist bent I hardly view he was sent by God as some kind of a sign of moral depravity in America.
Homosexuality and pedophilia are nor the same. Pedophilia affects both straight and gays. It is however overwhelmingly male yet victims are both male and female. If all homosexuals were suddenly removed from earth there would still be pedophiles. Also it would hardly make a dent in cases of rape and other sexual abuses of women which everyone here when they spout sexual depravity seems to leave out.
While it may be true that many boys may have been hit up on by older gay men it pales in comparison to the number of girls hit up on by straight older men. Perhaps it is not gay or straight but just men in general who are overwhelmingly the sexual predators.
No Cato in this thread you MUST distinguish between homosexual predation and all the other kinds, none of which exist.
Stuart
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 05 2009,23:10) Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 05 2009,22:15) This is why we have a man in the presidency that we have. God is giving us a look at what we deserve for killing all the babies. Abortion and Homosexuality are the depth of depravity to which a naiton falls, before God destroys them.
Sometimes I am utterly amazed at what people believe. Next you will no doubt tell us crack was created by the CIA, the moon landings were faked and Elvis is still alive?While I did not vote for the President and I think he is spending too much and has a strong socialist bent I hardly view he was sent by God as some kind of a sign of moral depravity in America.
Homosexuality and pedophilia are nor the same. Pedophilia affects both straight and gays. It is however overwhelmingly male yet victims are both male and female. If all homosexuals were suddenly removed from earth there would still be pedophiles. Also it would hardly make a dent in cases of rape and other sexual abuses of women which everyone here when they spout sexual depravity seems to leave out.
It is not a matter of degrees of evil. It is a matter of how much society seems to accept a lowering of expectation as regards deviant behaviour.Whenever society begins to accept bad behaviour, until they call it “acceptable” and finally begin to call evil “good,” God will hold them accountable. And if Christians stand by while God's judgment takes place, they WILL be caught up in it.
It gives a new emphasis to “come out from among them and be ye separate.”
You may be amazed all you want, it remains a fact, God is in charge and will exercise his right to judge AND EXECUTE judgment on nations.
Too many times people will just stand by and watch man's inhumanity to man and proclaim loud and long “If God is so loving, and just, why does he allow this to happen.” The answer is simple. God does not intervene at individual case levels, he intervenes at national levels. This is because he expects his people to handle the small stuff. When his people fail to act, or respond, he watches, and when it become so bad as to reflect upon him as our God, he will no longer allow it to continue.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
GOD IS THE POWER BEHIND THRONES:
Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: 21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings:AND HE SETS OVER US THE MEN WE DESERVE
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.Quote (Cato @ Aug. 05 2009,22:39) Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 05 2009,22:02) All the old dietary laws no longer mean anything. None of the Old Testament 10 commandment laws mean anything. They were a law for a people, for a time. Under the new covenant law, everything that was incorporated in the 10 commandment law, was reinstituted in the law “Love God, lovve thy neighbor as thyself.”
If one loves his neighbor truly as he loves himself, that eliminates the need for laws against murder, lying, stealing, adultry, false witnessing, gossipping, and any other act that is contrary to the true meaning of “love thy neighbor.”
I would assume that the prohibitions against homosexual relations likewise went out with the dietary laws then?How is the fact that one's make-up leads one to be sexually attracted to the same sex rather then the opposite sex not loving thy neighbor?
Exactly – you assume.You must have missed this part –
Quote Under the new covenant law, everything that was incorporated in the 10 commandment law, was reinstituted in the law “Love God, lovve thy neighbor as thyself.” If one loves his neighbor truly as he loves himself, that eliminates the need for laws against murder, lying, stealing, adultry, false witnessing, gossipping, and any other act that is contrary to the true meaning of “love thy neighbor.”
Where does this leave room for homosexuality, pedophisia, fornication, adultry, or any other attack in sin against my neighbor?
you said
Quote How is the fact that one's make-up leads one to be sexually attracted to the same sex rather then the opposite sex not loving thy neighbor? I say it is a lie. God did not make ANYONE sin. ALL men have one basic objective in life, and that objective is “to overcome the natural man.” Do you think homosexuals alone are condemned? Do you think all those people who think it is o.k. to tell a “little white lie” seriously have a chance for heaven?
ALL are seriously self-deluded. Sin is common to all men, not “which sin?” Not “degrees of sin.” Not “everyone's doing it” kind of sin. And not “your sin is worse than my sin” kind of thinking. All are self-delusions.
How does that mitigate the punishment of homosexuals? Do you really think that because there are liars, pedophiles, fornicatores, cheaters, thieves, and whatever men can think to do, homosexuals and abortionists will not have to pay for their stupidity?
How does one stupidity negate the other stupidity?
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 05 2009,21:33) There is no question that Saul of Tarsus was a redneck zealot homophobe who did not care about humans. Who would sweet sinless baby Jesus have stoned first?
Now I remember, Jesus wimped out of punishing an adulteress. Seems the OT laws don't apply after all, even though Saul said they did, if it was he who wrote Timothy.
Christianity can't even get it's brutal story straight.
Stuart
Every time some nut posts a statement like “There is no question…” I immediately search for the “questionable” that person is trying to negate with his rhetoric.Of COURSE your conclusion is questioned, nay, even denied by anyone who knows anything at all of scripture.
You baseless attack on Jesus and Paul, and all the Apostles, scripture itself, is just that, a baseless attack, wiothout foundation in fact, in history, in literature, in logic, or in any sense other than self deluded hate.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 05 2009,06:53) If abrahamists did not preach from a book that contains pronouncements of abomination and incitements to murder for gay people, taken seriously by so many redneck christians, then maybe people would be more honest about their sexual feelings. The difficulty in determining this figure I would guess is not only due to the risk of social isolation because of persecution by inhuman religionists, but because sexuality is a spectrum and different people will have a different self-view about exactly what their attraction is, which may not be purely gay or straight but somewhere between the two, perhaps leaning more one way than the other.
This is why Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Romans are books for simpletons, they oversimplify a complex and fascinating question and kill it dead. Or would like to kill the subjects of the question dead.
It might be more reliable to forget claims of higher predation rates that cannot be substantiated because a figure for homosexuality cannot be determined, and turn it round and say that it is likely that the figures for gay people and straight people are in proportion, and therefore the proportion of men who are gay is about 9%. After all the motives, whatever they are, must be similar.
Any conjecture out there on an explanation for this absurd claim that gay people are more predatory? A mechanism that goes beyond a brainless application of the 'evil' dogma? I think scripture and those who follow it blindly are peddling toxic hot air on this one.
Stuart
So you think the way to improve your position is to insult and bellitle your opposition.That does nothing toward mitigating your premise, but rather shows us what a very small mind you really present on these pages.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 04 2009,20:41) From: http://www.springerlink.com/content/6wnv26q344t52hw7/ Donna Eshuys1 Contact Information and Stephen Smallbone1
(1) School of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Griffith University, Queensland, 4001, AustraliaPublished online: 2 August 2006
Abstract This article examines associations between self-reported religious affiliations and official offense histories among 111 incarcerated adult male sexual offenders. Four categories of religiosity were devised according to self-reported continuities and discontinuities in life-course religious affiliations: atheists, dropouts, converts, and stayers. ANCOVAs indicated that stayers (those who maintained religious involvement from childhood to adulthood) had more sexual offense convictions, more victims, and younger victims, than other groups. Results challenge assumptions that religious involvement should, as with other crime, serve to deter sexual offending behavior.Stuart
Ary you claiming that only Athiests are perfect?Paladin the whole crux of this discussion is that you believe that having sexual feelings for one's own sex is sin, plain and simple just like theft, murder, etc.
This is clearly stated in books such as Leviticus. Yet you indicate such rules were of the old law and with Jesus were replaced with Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself. In your view evidently homosexual relations must either interfere with love of God or loving thy neighbor.
Others believe that this in no way conflicts with love of God or loving thy neighbor (in some ways its loving thy neighbor too much like thyself). [pun intended]. So where is the sin?
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 05 2009,23:54) Whenever society begins to accept bad behaviour, until they call it “acceptable” and finally begin to call evil “good,” God will hold them accountable. And if Christians stand by while God's judgment takes place, they WILL be caught up in it. It gives a new emphasis to “come out from among them and be ye separate.”
You may be amazed all you want, it remains a fact, God is in charge and will exercise his right to judge AND EXECUTE judgment on nations.
This is probably the same line of reasoning the various mullahs, ayatollahs and sheiks use for justifying, honor killings, jihad, female circumcision and keeping women in burqas.Just this week in according to the, Associated Press Wed. Aug 5 KHARTOUM, Sudan — Sudanese police fired tear gas and beat women protesting at the trial Tuesday of a female journalist who faces a flogging for wearing trousers in public. Lubna Hussein could receive 40 lashes if found guilty of violating the country’s indecency law which follows a strict interpretation of Islam…
The government there thinks it's laws and actions prevent moral decline in their society and also believe God justifies and supports them. As a matter of fact wherever we have theocratic governments this kind of behavior takes place; Iran anyone? I find it dangerous when governments act upon what they think are divine directives.
I have concerns over moral decay in society also, too much sex and violence on TV, drugs and excess materialism. I simply don't view having a thing for your own sex one of them and am leary of groups stepping in speaking for God with there own solutions which often prove worse then the disease itself.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 05 2009,04:32) Quote Estimates of the occurrence of exclusive homosexuality range from >1% to 10% of the population, usually finding there are slightly more gay men than lesbians. What's your source?
I wasn't far off. Even if we go with 10% there is still a whole lot of homosexuals who prey on children given their small population. This is a clear indicator. If the homosexual population was reversed and they were the super majority sex crimes against children would be much more rampant that it is now. My point still stands.thinker
Stu said:
Quote Any conjecture out there on an explanation for this absurd claim that gay people are more predatory? See the thread I started titled “Homosexual pedophilia in ancient Rome” (though I meant to say Greece). All the facts about ancient homosexual predators are documented.
thinker
Cato said:
Quote Homosexuality and pedophilia are nor the same. Pedophilia affects both straight and gays. It is however overwhelmingly male yet victims are both male and female. If all homosexuals were suddenly removed from earth there would still be pedophiles. Also it would hardly make a dent in cases of rape and other sexual abuses of women which everyone here when they spout sexual depravity seems to leave out. Cato,
Do you even care about the facts? No one has said that homosexuality and pedophilia is the same. What is being said is that the homosexuality is primarily pederastic.Quote Many people today know that the Greeks were notorious for their homosexual behavior. But often they do not know that the Greek homosexual was primarily pederasty or pedaphilia, that is, an adult man having sex with a young boy who commonly was between twelve and sixteen years old. (How Christianity Changed the World, p., 86) Humanity has not changed for the better. It's just that we have Judeo-Christian laws in place that help to create the conscience needed to avoid history repeating itself. In time history will repeat itself thanks to too many people like you.
You have been informed.
thinker
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