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kejonn
Wow! That truly is amazing. All those quotes that the Father is the Only true God!
But as youu know Trinitarians believe the Son and the Holy Spirit is also “True God”.
So this is not a contradiction!
No they are not the Father!
kejonn
It might help if you could find one of the early Fathers say Jesus is not God or is not to be worshipped!
But then again even if you do its not considered inspired is it?
Also when I get a chance I will show you how Justin and Irenaeus contradicted themselves if what you are trying to say with the isolated text is true!
To WorshippingJesus;
When you understand a truth you can easily convey that truth to another. When you refer me to four sites to pursuade me of your point of view what you are telling me is that you don't really understand it well enough to explain it yet. That's fine. There are many truths that we would all find hard to explain. The irony is that most dissertations regarding the trinity begin with the statement it is a very difficult concept to understand. I submit to you it is very difficult to explain because it contradicts the substantial passages of scripture in John (for starters), which is where the majority of Christ teaching is found regarding his relationship with his Father. John 1:1 which is used to support the deity of Christ doesn't even mention the title Son of God, or the name of Jesus. It's very presumptuous to build the trinity doctrine on these scriptures when Jesus expressly responds to those who were accusing him of claiming to be God in John 5. It is a very long passage of scripture, most of which I explained to you in my prior post. If Christ made any truth absolutely clear to the Jews it was that he was not claiming equality with God, but was entirely dependent on God for his life, power, and the “Words” he spoke. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the trinity doctrine states that Christ is equal with God. Jesus said the Father was greater than he. If you say that Christ is equal with God you are contradicting what Christ said in his very own words unambiguously, it simply cannot have any other meaning or interpretation. Since a statement that is spoken with the knowledge that Christ taught otherwise is spoken with knowledge of the truth of Christ, such a statement is an intentional defamation of the teaching of Christ. We can differ on many aspects of the word where we all see through a glass darkly but we cannot wilfully contradict what Christ spoke, we lie and do not the truth. The answer is merely to change our beliefs to be in accord with the word of God.
Take care,
Steven
Hi KJ ,
And while you are at it can you check the bible to see if
Adam and Abraham and Mary and Moses are not God as well.WorshippingJesus;
Chris created all things, isn't that correct? Colossians. Does all things include the Father? Remember the insight the Apostle Paul gave us (I can see why now) “When it is said that he puts all things under his feet, it is excepted that He is excepted that hath put all things under him”
Just as Christ created all things, it is excepted he did not create his God and his Father.Take care
Steven
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2007,17:26) kejonn Wow! That truly is amazing. All those quotes that the Father is the Only true God!
But as youu know Trinitarians believe the Son and the Holy Spirit is also “True God”.
So this is not a contradiction!
No they are not the Father!
kejonn
It might help if you could find one of the early Fathers say Jesus is not God or is not to be worshipped!
But then again even if you do its not considered inspired is it?
Also when I get a chance I will show you how Justin and Irenaeus contradicted themselves if what you are trying to say with the isolated text is true!
WJ,Yep, alot of work
. But I agree with what you said. They did call Yeshua “God”. But I think you might want to check out the post from Irenaeus' 4th book on heresies. He asserts that those who possess adoption are also called “God”! If that is so — and we certainly don't take his word above the Bible — then one has to consider what then “God” meant. YHWH is God in name AND Being. But can we be absolutely certain that Yeshua is? After all, he is flesh and spirit and God is spirit alone. Luk 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
That is Yeshua after the resurrection!
Not only that, but we see in Hebrews 1 that Yeshua was placed above the angels. But why do we not see that he was placed in euqality with the Father instead?
Hbr 1:4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Why does the author of Hebrews not say “having become equal with his Father”? It doesn't…it only says “much better than the angels”.
Certainly, Yeshua is of the family of God since he is the only begotten Son. As such, he inherits tha name of “God” without a doubt. But we already know he is not omniscient (Mark 13:32) so he has failed in that equality. If he fails here, and can only do as His Father tells him, is he then truly “God” in both name AND nature? There's where the rubber meets the road.
Kejonn;
You are wise above many that are ancient in years. Remember what Jesus told James and John when they said we want you to grant us what we desire. Christ asked what it was. They said to sit on your throne. Christ said “it's not for me to give”, but it shall be given to those to whom it has been prepared. A clear cut case of Christ making it expressly clear that the Father was greater than himself.
Take care,
Steven
Mr. Steve,
Thanks, but I wouldn't go that far
. In any case, you are right. But Trinitarians say subjection is not a measure of equality because humans are subject to one another and yet all are still human. I can see this reasoning. But then Yeshua fails to be YHWH, and then can only be “God”. So, does the Trinity have YHWH as one of the 3 persons, or is the Trinity YHWH? It cannot be the latter IMO because the OT would not allow it to be possible.
Hi,
God introduced Himself as “I Am Who Am”
But I have yet to see the question answered
by those who will not accept that God is One
as to whether it was one voice or three in unison.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2007,17:26) kejonn Wow! That truly is amazing. All those quotes that the Father is the Only true God!
But as youu know Trinitarians believe the Son and the Holy Spirit is also “True God”.
So this is not a contradiction!
No they are not the Father!
kejonn
It might help if you could find one of the early Fathers say Jesus is not God or is not to be worshipped!
But then again even if you do its not considered inspired is it?
Also when I get a chance I will show you how Justin and Irenaeus contradicted themselves if what you are trying to say with the isolated text is true!
WJ,Can you show me where Yeshua was ever called “true God” or the “one God” or the “only God”? This is where Trinitarians have to start implying.
Hi KJ,
That is the problem when you start with a dogma and then work backwards to justify it.
The chosen name gives it all away.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2007,20:43) Hi,
God introduced Himself as “I Am Who Am”
But I have yet to see the question answered
by those who will not accept that God is One
as to whether it was one voice or three in unison.
Nick,Since I'm “expanding” knowledge with Irenaeus, here is some more that help with the “one God” theology. In his Against Heresies: Book III, Chapter XI—Proofs in continuation, extracted from St. John’s Gospel. The Gospels are four in number, neither more nor less. Mystic reasons for this.
The disciple of the Lord therefore desiring to put an end to all such doctrines, and to establish the rule of truth in the Church, that there is one Almighty God, who made all things by His Word, both visible and invisible; showing at the same time, that by the Word, through whom God made the creation, He also bestowed salvation on the men included in the creation; thus commenced His teaching in the Gospel: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made What was made was life in Him, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.”
Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,13:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2007,17:26) kejonn Wow! That truly is amazing. All those quotes that the Father is the Only true God!
But as youu know Trinitarians believe the Son and the Holy Spirit is also “True God”.
So this is not a contradiction!
No they are not the Father!
kejonn
It might help if you could find one of the early Fathers say Jesus is not God or is not to be worshipped!
But then again even if you do its not considered inspired is it?
Also when I get a chance I will show you how Justin and Irenaeus contradicted themselves if what you are trying to say with the isolated text is true!
WJ,Can you show me where Yeshua was ever called “true God” or the “one God” or the “only God”? This is where Trinitarians have to start implying.
KejonnI have! But you have chosen to read into the text what you want.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.This is the true God and “eternal life”.
Who is? The one who we are in. We are in both the Father and the Son!
John who also recorded John 1:1 “The Word was God”, also recorded 1 John 1:1,2.
1 John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us😉John starts his epistle with the Word who is God, saying that this Word is the “Eternal Life” that was manifested to us, and in vrs 3 he says our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son. Then he ends the Epistle calling the Father and Jesus the True God and Eternal life, and that we are in this one true God.
…and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
The 1st Epistle of John is about the Word that came in the flesh. The Word that was with God and was God!
Jesus is also true God in other ways…
Jn 1:
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.John 6:
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.Jn 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.John sees the heavenly vision of this one who is true…
Rev 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (origin) of the creation of God;Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?Rev 15:3
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.Rev 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.It dosn't take a rocket scientist to see the Word who is God is true God!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2007,01:59) Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,13:44)
WJ,Can you show me where Yeshua was ever called “true God” or the “one God” or the “only God”? This is where Trinitarians have to start implying.
KejonnI have! But you have chosen to read into the text what you want.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.This is the true God and “eternal life”.
Who is? The one who we are in. We are in both the Father and the Son!
“Who”? No, the verse you quoted says “This”. Is Yeshua a “this”? Nope. He is a “he” or “him”. So already this verse flops in support for the Trinity. If anything, it is the summation of the whole of the preceding sentence. What does it mean by “so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ”. Who is the “Him” here? The Father. So you could replace “Him” with Father.And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know The Father who is true; and we are in The Father who is true, in the Father's Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Who is true in the first sentence of the verse? The Father. Why would it then switch to Yeshua in the last sentence of the verse?Is either the Father or the Son a “this”?
Quote John who also recorded John 1:1 “The Word was God”, also recorded 1 John 1:1,2. 1 John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us😉John starts his epistle with the Word who is God, saying that this Word is the “Eternal Life” that was manifested to us, and in vrs 3 he says our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son. Then he ends the Epistle calling the Father and Jesus the True God and Eternal life, and that we are in this one true God.
…and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
The 1st Epistle of John is about the Word that came in the flesh. The Word that was with God and was God!
Jesus is also true God in other ways…
Jn 1:
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.John 6:
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.Jn 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.John sees the heavenly vision of this one who is true…
Rev 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (origin) of the creation of God;Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?Rev 15:3
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.Rev 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.It dosn't take a rocket scientist to see the Word who is God is true God!
No cigar again. No instance of “true God”, “one God”, or “only God” attributed to Yeshua. Yet I provided plenty of examples of the same being said of the Father.Implications will only get you so far.
Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You[The Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1Cr 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
John knew the true God. Paul knew the one God. Both knew He is the Father. Shame people ignore them.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2007,01:59)
John who also recorded John 1:1 “The Word was God”, also recorded 1 John 1:1,2.1 John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us😉John starts his epistle with the Word who is God, saying that this Word is the “Eternal Life” that was manifested to us, and in vrs 3 he says our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son. Then he ends the Epistle calling the Father and Jesus the True God and Eternal life, and that we are in this one true God.
Wait…no Holy Spirit? Where is the 3rd “person” of the Triune God in this? Oooppps. Binity again.Quote Jn 1:
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Still comes from the authority and power of the FatherCol 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Quote John 6:
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Last I looked, my food was not me unless you like the saying “you are what you eat”
. So if Yeshua is the bread, He is not the giver of the bread.Quote Jn 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
And yet you missed that the vine cannot live without the husbandman (vinedresser).Quote John sees the heavenly vision of this one who is true… Rev 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (origin) of the creation of God;
Yes, Yeshua is true. Is he supposed to be false? But neither of these verse say “true God”. Only “true” and “true witness”. Oh yeah, and “the beginning of the creation of God” (The Word).Quote Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Still no “true God”.Quote Rev 15:3
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
God Almighty is just and true. Are you trying to say they are singing about Yeshua here? If so, Moses needs to be in the Godhead too — “the song of Moses the servant of God”.Quote Rev 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.It dosn't take a rocket scientist to see the Word who is God is true God!
Nope, just a Trinitarian .kejonn
You say..
Quote
John knew the true God. Paul knew the one God. Both knew He is the Father. Shame people ignore them.Interesting. And yet you say Jesus is “a god”!
John knew who Jesus was…
Why do you think he says we are in Jesus Christ, this is the true God and Eternal life! Why didnt he just leave him out of the 20th verse.
How can millions of believers be “In Jesus” and “In God” at the same time if he is not God?
How can this Jesus call to men everywhere at the same time saying “Come unto me” if he is not God?
How can this Jesus dwell in the hearts of every born again child of God and be every where at the same time where 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name, if he is not God?
How could this being lay the foundations of the world if he is not God? Have you considered what these things mean and how big this Jesus is to be able to fill all things and to uphold all things by the word of “his power” and that by this being all things consist and had their origins?
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.Look again my friend. The apostles didnt call any other “Theos” in a true sense but the Father and the Son.
You have yet to show that the Apostles were polytheist and believed that there was more than one God!
1 Cor 8:4
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Cr 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
1Cr 8:6 yet for us there is {but} one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we {exist} through Him.How do you explain this kejonn?
There is no other God but one. Yet we see the Apostles calling him God.
You have shown nothing to say Jesus is not God. You continue to ignore that “God alone” made the heavens, yet say that he did it through Jesus the Word, Implying that there was another being less than God with God that God made all things through.
You show the early Fathers calling the Father the One God and creator and yet the same Fathers calling Jesus the creator.
Yet some how you think that they are saying the Father only is God and that the Son is a lessor god in contrast to the Hebrew scriptures.
What gives?
Again, 1 John 5:20 includes Jesus as the One true God, or why did he place him in there with the Father?
Your rants will not change the thousands of years the truth of God has shouted Jesus is God.
He truly is.
Maybe he is not your lord and God, I dont know. But he is mine. And I am not a polytheist!
How many gods do you have?
To say the Jesus is God is true statement but to make that the end of your understanding is a pity. How is Jesus God. Specifically, he is the Son of God. He came out from God the Father. He was begotten by God the Father. Otherwise, if he is the only begotten you are teaching that he begat himself which contradicts scripture. Christ is the Son of God begotten by God before all things. Christ is the beginning and the end. But when we say that Christ is the alpha and the omega it is accepted that he did not create God his Father and our God and Father. He was declared to be the Son of God with power, not by a carnal commandment but by the power of an endless life. By divine decree he has been given an eternal sonship. The Lord hath sworn and will not repent “Thou art a priest after the order of Melchizedek” As Melchizedek was without a beginning so is the Son of God, without beginning of days or end of life because he was begotten by God who is eternal life.
Kejonn
You say…
Quote Wait…no Holy Spirit? Where is the 3rd “person” of the Triune God in this? Oooppps. Binity again. I thought you were more tactful than that! To resort to such logic.
HMM. Let me see…
Thomas said unto him…
“My Lord and my God”. Oops. Thomas forgot to mention the Father and the Spirit so I guess they are not God.
You say…
Quote
Yes, Yeshua is true. Is he supposed to be false? But neither of these verse say “true God”. Only “true” and “true witness”. Oh yeah, and “the beginning of the creation of God” (The Word).Lets see Jesus is true. Jesus is God
HMMM. So are you saying Jesus had a beginning?
Show me the scripture. Look at the greek for the beginning my friend. It means he is the “Origin”?
He is the origin of all things. He is before all things and by him all things consist.
Jesus is called the Word because the word was spoken by him who laid the foundation of the earth. Hebrews 1:10.
You say…
Quote Still comes from the authority and power of the Father Yea, and what is your point?
Jesus is both God and man my friend. Jesus left his Glory he shared with the Father as God! Phil 2
He emptied himself and took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. Strange. I feel like I have been around this mountain with you before.
He has been restored to his original position. Check it out.
Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;It aint no little god that upholds all things by the word of his power.
BTW. “All things consist” by this little god.
You say…
Quote And yet you missed that the vine cannot live without the husbandman (vinedresser). What are you saying here? That the Father is not in the Son and the Son is not in the Father.
What is this supposed to be proof that Jesus is not the Word/God in the flesh?
Jesus is the vine because he is also a man. We were grafted into the vine because of his humanity. He is God manifest in the flesh.
Only Jesus could say “If you have seen me you have seen God”
You say…
Quote
God Almighty is just and true. Are you trying to say they are singing about Yeshua here? If so, Moses needs to be in the Godhead too — “the song of Moses the servant of God”.Absolutly. The song of Moses is the song of the Lamb.
Its a song about YHWH the deliverer, the Saviour of his people.
Who is the Saviour and deliverer?
Since you dont think they are singing the praises of Yeshua then maybe you should look here…
Rev 5:
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
[11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
[12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
[14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.As usual the Son right next to the Father being worshipped as God!
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 01 2007,05:30) To say the Jesus is God is true statement but to make that the end of your understanding is a pity. How is Jesus God. Specifically, he is the Son of God. He came out from God the Father. He was begotten by God the Father. Otherwise, if he is the only begotten you are teaching that he begat himself which contradicts scripture. Christ is the Son of God begotten by God before all things. Christ is the beginning and the end. But when we say that Christ is the alpha and the omega it is accepted that he did not create God his Father and our God and Father. He was declared to be the Son of God with power, not by a carnal commandment but by the power of an endless life. By divine decree he has been given an eternal sonship. The Lord hath sworn and will not repent “Thou art a priest after the order of Melchizedek” As Melchizedek was without a beginning so is the Son of God, without beginning of days or end of life because he was begotten by God who is eternal life.
steveNope, not a modalist!
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