- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,19:10) Quote (gollamudi @ June 02 2008,17:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,16:35) t8…..I disagree with you, you are the one reading into the text things it doesn't specifically say if not Show me one Place where Jesus said He was a preexisting being and I change my mind , but saying because He said before Abraham i am is saying the same thing a him saying he preexisted before him, that is forcing the text to say what you want it to say. So whose pushing their own view point which is not specifically said in scripture like the trinitarians do. Why did Paul call him the second Adam then when in fact He was nothing like Adam being a super being who created all the world and every thing in it as you preexistence's say. I believe what Paul said was right He was truly a second Adam in every way simply a man
from his berth to His death, a man who God Perfected and became to him a Father and He became to Him a son.Just like it say's, For he (shall)be unto me a so and I (shall) be unto him a Father.Some say (will be) instead (shall be) but non the less it's future tense showing that at the time that statement was made that relationship did not exist. So where is a preexistence son then, its not their because it had not happened yet.
so maybe you need to get the log out of your eye before accusing others of having one in their eye.
IMO…………….gene
Excellent post Gene,
Let all pre-existence believers reply your query what was the relationship their pre-existent being having with God. When all the prophecies about Jesus the Christ in O.T. were future events like “This day or he will be a son to me” how can these people create a pre-existing son? Is there a logic in that?
Peace to you
Adam
I don't mind replying. I don't hold that Yeshua was the perpetual Son. I think scriptures like Luke 1:35, Romans 1:4 and Hebrews 1:5 unmistakably bear out that the sonship of Yeshua relates to His earthly birth. That is not to say that He did not preexist the incarnation – He did! As the Logos.Endure sound teaching…..
Hi Is 1:18Good points! Another one to fly in the Henotheist face that claims he was the “firstborn” Son way back before creation!
Blessings!
Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,20:27) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,19:10) I don't mind replying. I don't hold that Yeshua was the perpetual Son.
Welcome to the Heretical club. I think you might find that the guardians of the Trinity doctrine would hold you as a heretic for saying that the son wasn't perpetually begotten/generating.Of course I don't believe in the Trinity doctrine so I don't think that the guardians of that doctrine have any right to judge those that do not believe it.
But you go on about how heretical I am, and yet you could be too from the point of view of the official Trinity doctrine police.
So is your Trinity the right one, or is the official Trinity the right one?
Perhaps your time might be spent more efficiently convincing those that hold to the Trinity to go with your version instead of the Apostles Creed.
Then when you have conquered them, you could all gang up on us.
Just a suggestion.
t8Look around you at all the variations of your henotheistic view!
Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,21:09) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,21:00) Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,20:27) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,19:10) I don't mind replying. I don't hold that Yeshua was the perpetual Son.
Welcome to the Heretical club. I think you might find that the guardians of the Trinity doctrine would hold you as a heretic for saying that the son wasn't perpetually begotten/generating.Of course I don't believe in the Trinity doctrine so I don't think that the guardians of that doctrine have any right to judge those that do not believe it.
But you go on about how heretical I am, and yet you could be too from the point of view of the official Trinity doctrine police.
So is your Trinity the right one, or is the official Trinity the right one?
Perhaps your time might be spent more efficiently convincing those that hold to the Trinity to go with your version instead of the Apostles Creed.
Then when you have conquered them, you could all gang up on us.
Just a suggestion.
I have already gone on record as saying my theology is generally orthodox, but has elements of non-orthodoxy. The pre-inncarnation sonship of Yeshua is one aspect of the creeds I don't happan to hold to. Neither do a lot of trinitarians actually. Ironically you do. So much for your aspirations for being the archetypal iconoclast.
You made a spelling mistake IS. It sounds like you might be a bit mad right now and are not concentrating.That is OK of course.
But I just find it ironic that you accuse me of pretty much being an outsider or having my own doctrine and then you admit that you are outside the Apostles Creed too and have your own doctrine.
Can I suggest that it may not be a good idea for persecuting those who challenge known false but official teachings because you admit to doing it yourself.
I am not saying it is wrong to disagree but that you shouldn't persecute people for disagreeing with dodgy doctrine.
Thanks for listening.
t8This is untrue and unmerrited judgment of Is 1:18.
He dosnt post here very often, but when he does I have never seen him “persecute” anyone?
Maybe it feels that way to you because his sound doctrine cuts to the heart.
Instead of making such accusations why dont you show some proof he has done such. Or at least challenge his post.
Instead you just resort to name calling like a kid in a school yard.
Why havent you put a little yellow or red mark beside his avatar if he has persecuted anyone?
Why dont you ask anyone here if they ever felt persecuted by Is 1:18?
Most of the time I see judgment, patronizing, and condemnation coming from you.
I can show you those post if you would like.
But I am quite sure yoiu dont care, because it seems you believe that you are the only one here with sound truth.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 03 2008,01:58) Quote I don't know if there is an actual scripture that says that he was the son of God before being the second Adam John 3:16 (niv)-16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Isaiah 9:6 (niv)- 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Psalm 2:7 (niv)- 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son [a] ;
today I have become your Father.Psalm 2:12 (niv)- 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.All scriptures referring to Jesus before his birth
Thanks DK.
The Son is also mentioned in Prov 30.Quote (dirtyknections @ June 03 2008,01:58) Quote I don't know if there is an actual scripture that says that he was the son of God before being the second Adam John 3:16 (niv)-16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Isaiah 9:6 (niv)- 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Psalm 2:7 (niv)- 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son [a] ;
today I have become your Father.Psalm 2:12 (niv)- 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.All scriptures referring to Jesus before his birth
Hi Brother:These verses are prophetic. “The government shall be (future). His name shall be called (future)
Hi WJ,
You say
“So t8, unless you believe that Justin as well as Ignatius and others were polytheist and believe that we can worship other beings or gods, then you have a problem.You see t8 we can continue the debate about the forefathers if you would like, and you will see contrary to your Henotheistc belief, that the forefathers were not Polytheist nor Henotheist, they did not believe in the existence of any true God (Theos) but One. “
Somehow you always seem to think all gods in scripture should be worshiped.
That deception should stop when you come across the god of this world there.We should not get so muddled because it says
For us there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2008,10:05) Hi WJ,
You say
“So t8, unless you believe that Justin as well as Ignatius and others were polytheist and believe that we can worship other beings or gods, then you have a problem.You see t8 we can continue the debate about the forefathers if you would like, and you will see contrary to your Henotheistc belief, that the forefathers were not Polytheist nor Henotheist, they did not believe in the existence of any true God (Theos) but One. “
Somehow you always seem to think all gods in scripture should be worshiped.
That deception should stop when you come across the god of this world there.We should not get so muddled because it says
For us there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER.
NHIs this what you are here to do? To make jabs and bear false witness?
You said…
Quote
Somehow you always seem to think all gods in scripture should be worshiped.
That deception should stop when you come across the god of this world there.Have you ever heard me say that there were other so-called god and especially have you ever heard me say we are to worship other so-called gods. My statement was to t8 who believes that Yeshua can be worshipped and infact admits that he does.
There was a guy here who got kicked off this sight by misrepresenting others and making false accusations.
Is your job here only to be contentious and bear false witness and to make stabs or throw spiritual stones at those who believe?
Quote (942767 @ June 03 2008,10:00) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 03 2008,01:58) Quote I don't know if there is an actual scripture that says that he was the son of God before being the second Adam John 3:16 (niv)-16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Isaiah 9:6 (niv)- 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Psalm 2:7 (niv)- 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son [a] ;
today I have become your Father.Psalm 2:12 (niv)- 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.All scriptures referring to Jesus before his birth
Hi Brother:These verses are prophetic. “The government shall be (future). His name shall be called (future)
Hi 94,
Yes in the fulness, but Christ rules now.Lk16
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Hi 94,
The bible is full of all sorts of prophecy.
It takes the revelation of faith to know when they are fulfilled.
Jesus revealed to the men travelling to Emmaeus the ones that he had encompassed.
They could have chosen to believe that he was wrong and the promises remained just as prophetic words.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2008,10:25) Quote (942767 @ June 03 2008,10:00) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 03 2008,01:58) Quote I don't know if there is an actual scripture that says that he was the son of God before being the second Adam John 3:16 (niv)-16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Isaiah 9:6 (niv)- 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Psalm 2:7 (niv)- 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son [a] ;
today I have become your Father.Psalm 2:12 (niv)- 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.All scriptures referring to Jesus before his birth
Hi Brother:These verses are prophetic. “The government shall be (future). His name shall be called (future)
Hi 94,
Yes in the fulness, but Christ rules now.Lk16
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Sorry Dk and Nick, I thought that DK was stating these in support a pre-existent Jesus. If this is not what was intended, please forgive me.Hi WJ,
Was Paul a polytheist?
1Cor8
3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Hi Nick see the verse 4, “there is no God but One”.
We need not confuse again and again by making Jesus as God (so called) by quoting the same verse 5 repeatedly.
Peace to you
AdamHi Gm,
We do not need these labels do we?
If we follow Christ then christian is good enough.
Only those who add the teachings of men seem to need to label others.Yes you are right, ultimately Jesus is the one whom we have to follow to reach that One God.
Thanks
AdamQuote (t8 @ June 02 2008,21:33) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,21:13) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,20:50) Explain SOMETHING to me t8, according to Hebrews 1:5 the Father said to the Son these words: “I will be a Father to Him and He will be a Son to Me”. Why would he say that He will be (future tense) a Father to Him IF HE ALREADY WAS A FATHER TO HIM??
This question.
Jesus was the Word of God. He was with God in the beginning.I don't know if there is an actual scripture that says that he was the son of God before being the second Adam. We do have angels as sons of God, and I know that he is greater than the angels, therefore greater than the sons.
Hebrews 1:1-8
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.” 7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.” 8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.It says that God created all things through the son and the son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being.
Of course I am open to this simply meaning the son as he was before he was the son.
This post is nothing short of a tacit admission that there really is no biblical evidence to support your contention that the title Son of God relates to Him being supernaturally 'birthed' before His incarnation. And your silence on Hebrews 1:5 speaks volumes. I surmise that is because it really doesn't fit within the framework of your understanding of the sonsip of Christ at all. When that happens you should reevaluate your theology t8.Cheers.
Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,21:38) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,21:19) Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,21:09) But you go on about how heretical I am, and yet you could be too from the point of view of the official Trinity doctrine police. But I just find it ironic that you accuse me of pretty much being an outsider or having my own doctrine and then you admit that you are outside the Apostles Creed too and have your own doctrine.
t8, where have I said such things? I don't believe I have. Please find a quote to support the accusations. Otherwise hold your (figurative) tongue.
Looking for it would be like finding needles in the haystack, but you have recently said on occasion that I am a Polytheist, Heno-something, and I know that you have said in the past that I have my own made up doctrine. In other words you are saying that I am outside the truth when you sum up your attacks.You are entitled to your opinion of course. But you have said such things about me and you might see them quoted on that great day. But I pray that God forgives you.
Henotheist and polytheist are not perjoratives. I use these terms because they accurately reflect the doctrines you hold to. You believe Yeshua is a godly person and has ontology intermediate to YHWH and angels. That's a quintessentially henotheistic precept. You believe there exists more than one divine being – that's polytheism by definition. The evidence speaks for itself.Hi Nick,
what do you want to make with your god of this world as you repeatedly quote as you like him??
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
