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Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 17 2008,08:59) Inner feeling and such is not the only place for truth, but truth is where the truth is. I do not think a book is the only way to find evidence, but rather looking at evidence is how you find truth.
According to all the evidence, Christianity is firm and all other grounds are blind faiths. Yes Kejohn, I am sorry to say, but this includes you.
Were you able to make the superhuman effort to analyse all the evidence we have, in all its various forms, do you really think it would point to christianity? Which of the 34,000 versions of christianity would it point to?just the evidence of radioisotope dating and plate tectonics flatly contradict Ussher's genealogical interpretation of Genesis, so at least his christianity must be wrong on 'the evidence'.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ July 15 2008,20:49) Or perhaps he is leaving because he doesn't want to be with those who have no faith. Who knows? If that is the case Theologian-and-Apologist, there is always the believers category.
There should be no interruptions there and if there is, they are usually cast out into the outer forums, like this one.
Funny t8, I always think of these as the central forums. The Boy Scout sections are irrelevant backwaters because there is no properly skeptical alternative view presented there and most discussions in there these days are either mutual congratulation sessions or full of the softest…sophistry.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ July 15 2008,23:37) Theologian-and-Apologist, I just read some of your posts. Know this, that you may be talking sometimes to people who are not interested in one iota of truth, but that doesn't matter, because they make a great springboard for getting truth out there to those who read. There are plenty of readers here and what you type will be read for many years to come too. Hecklers are actually very useful. Use them wisely I say.
Is that your attempt at tolerance t8, to show how others may be used?Stuart
Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 16 2008,10:53) I will still stay here, Is there a way to turn off posts by a certain member?
Hi Theologian-and-Apologist.You can exist in the Believers Place category with no interruptions from non-believers. If you wish to debate with certain people, and not others who may only be interested in disruption, then you can set up a debate with someone and stipulate the rules.
Quote (Stu @ July 18 2008,00:56) Quote (t8 @ July 15 2008,20:49) Or perhaps he is leaving because he doesn't want to be with those who have no faith. Who knows? If that is the case Theologian-and-Apologist, there is always the believers category.
There should be no interruptions there and if there is, they are usually cast out into the outer forums, like this one.
Funny t8, I always think of these as the central forums. The Boy Scout sections are irrelevant backwaters because there is no properly skeptical alternative view presented there and most discussions in there these days are either mutual congratulation sessions or full of the softest…sophistry.Stuart
Great, then we can co-exist. One man's rubbish is another mans treasure as they say.Quote (Stu @ July 18 2008,00:57) Is that your attempt at tolerance t8, to show how others may be used? Stuart
Um, no.Just making a point that hecklers attract crowds.
I guess I should thank you for a certain amount of interest in these forums. Keep up the useful work.
Quote (Stu @ July 18 2008,00:52) Which of the 34,000 versions of christianity would it point to?
The tenth one?Um hang on. Scripture and prophecy actually.
Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2008,00:04) What if I find it to be sad that people place their hope in something that has no evidence of being real outside of a book? Does my sorrow count? What if I find it to be sad that so many shun potential relationships with good people out there because they don't agree that Jesus is the savior of the world? I know, I missed out on many potential friendships with great people in life because they didn't believe as I did. Hi KJ.
My faith in God and belief that Christ is the prototype son is not based in a book. If it was just a book, then I am not sure that my faith would be as strong as it is. In fact I am not even sure that I would still believe at all, and might just hold onto it for insurance purposes only.
My faith in God is because I know him to a degree. I know that I could know him much more, but God speaks to me and his guidance has helped me over the years, and his visions are true. He has even spoken to me in English. In fact one time he spoke to me he saved me from possible serious injury, perhaps even saved my life.
Sounds to me KJ that you knew God only through a book and now the book isn't good enough. But you no what? That is actually good. The book on it's own is not good enough. You can know about God and you can know God. They are much different. If you know God, then you are not swayed to and fro from one thing to another. When you know God, your faith is built on a solid foundation that doesn't move. If anything moves it is the person.
I think the time is coming where all who do not know God will struggle to have any faith at all because the world will produce and has produced many works to discourage any kind of faith. Some of these works are intellectually compelling in their environment, but still make no sense when you look at the big picture. But the enemy certainly isn't in the business of giving up to easily.
Hi T8,
I certainly do not need to speak for kejohn. He does a splendid job of speaking for himself.
But I do not know where you got the idea that he does not believe in god.
Kejohn simply believes that Abraham, Moses and the boys got it wrong. They did a poor job of describing
who and what God really is.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ July 19 2008,11:49) Hi T8, I certainly do not need to speak for kejohn. He does a splendid job of speaking for himself.
But I do not know where you got the idea that he does not believe in god.
Kejohn simply believes that Abraham, Moses and the boys got it wrong. They did a poor job of describing
who and what God really is.Tim
Hi Tim:Believing in God and having a personal relationship with Him through our Lord Jesus is an entirely different issue.
God Bless
Quote (t8 @ July 18 2008,23:06) Quote (Stu @ July 18 2008,00:56) Quote (t8 @ July 15 2008,20:49) Or perhaps he is leaving because he doesn't want to be with those who have no faith. Who knows? If that is the case Theologian-and-Apologist, there is always the believers category.
There should be no interruptions there and if there is, they are usually cast out into the outer forums, like this one.
Funny t8, I always think of these as the central forums. The Boy Scout sections are irrelevant backwaters because there is no properly skeptical alternative view presented there and most discussions in there these days are either mutual congratulation sessions or full of the softest…sophistry.Stuart
Great, then we can co-exist. One man's rubbish is another mans treasure as they say.
Well obviously we can't coexist, as you have barred some from participating and consigned them to an area that you consider a backwater. I wonder whose philosophy is the 'rubbish' if yours needs prrotecting and mine doesn't.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ July 18 2008,23:08) Quote (Stu @ July 18 2008,00:57) Is that your attempt at tolerance t8, to show how others may be used? Stuart
Um, no.Just making a point that hecklers attract crowds.
I guess I should thank you for a certain amount of interest in these forums. Keep up the useful work.
We should also celebrate the steady increase in the numbers voting in the poll for the truth of evolution (a large percentage for a forum like this) and the marked decrease in creationist posts in that area of the forum. People either avoid the topic because they don't know enough about it (quite a reasonable approach) or realise, perhaps begrugingly, that actually there is no controversy except that conjured up by fundamentalist christians and islamists. Given that the arguments against Darwin presented here (and elsewhere) are fallacious maybe it is time time to review the piece on evolution linked from the front page.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ July 18 2008,23:11) Quote (Stu @ July 18 2008,00:52) Which of the 34,000 versions of christianity would it point to?
The tenth one?Um hang on. Scripture and prophecy actually.
Ussher based his estimates on a very close study of scripture, and others worked independently to come up with a similar time since creation. Apologia of the 'a day is worth a thousand years' kind has limited use in this case because he was adding human lifespans together from a tedious genealogy (which he should have paid bo attention to, according to another verse!). The evidence says Ussher is wrong. His calculation is the equivalent of saying that the distance from Kaitaia to Bluff is just under 3 metres. Ussher is supported by scripture and is wrong.Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2008,23:13) If God wanted people to know Jesus, he would have left more than just some writings about him.
John 14:11-14
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
NIVMark 16:17-18
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
NIVHere's the thing, Kevin:
This is the life of a normal believer. Not an exceptional one, a normal one. Scripture is clear that these things are supposed to happen and this fruit is shown to bring esteem to the Father.
Miracles are very common. If you have seen what I have seen, you would have no excuse for not believing. You would be judged more severly if you witness His power and then deny Him. For this reason, I think it is good that you have not witnessed His power yet, and I am hoping that when the time comes and you see these things, you will not deny Him.
I have prayed for the sick and seen them healed. I have seen broken bones [with x-ray evidence] healed. I have seen babies come out of ICU. I have seen an arm that was crooked for 3 years straighten out. I have seen someone who fell down a flight of stairs while carrying a tv that was swollen and limping all day walk away just fine. [This was not overseas in a 3rd world country. This was in my hometown, USA- up close and personal.
My close friends have seen more. People out of wheelchairs. Legs that grew right in front of their eyes. Goiters disappear. Lumps disappear. Insane restored. Blind see. Deaf hear.
These things are a lot more comman than you think. If you want to know more, you can pm me.
To doubt what these men have said about God is to doubt their experience and communication with God.
In that case, he may doubt his own experience with God too.Doubt being the keyword. Doubt leads to unbelief and men are certainly entitled to not believe.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2008,20:41) To doubt what these men have said about God is to doubt their experience and communication with God.
In that case, he may doubt his own experience with God too.Doubt being the keyword. Doubt leads to unbelief and men are certainly entitled to not believe.
Do you doubt Mohamed's experience with angels of Allah? Do you doubt the various writers of Hindu texts when they speak of their experiences with Brahman? How about the writers of any religious text? If you doubt them, you have no right to look askew at someone who doubts the bible, eh?Quote (Shania @ Aug. 14 2008,20:26) Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2008,23:13) If God wanted people to know Jesus, he would have left more than just some writings about him.
John 14:11-14
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
NIVMark 16:17-18
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
NIVHere's the thing, Kevin:
This is the life of a normal believer. Not an exceptional one, a normal one. Scripture is clear that these things are supposed to happen and this fruit is shown to bring esteem to the Father.
Miracles are very common.
What constitutes a miracle? Walking on water and feeding thousands with a happy meal would rank right up there with me, yet no one has done these things except in the bible. So why should I believe the bible?
Quote If you have seen what I have seen, you would have no excuse for not believing. What have you seen?
Quote You would be judged more severly if you witness His power and then deny Him. For this reason, I think it is good that you have not witnessed His power yet, and I am hoping that when the time comes and you see these things, you will not deny Him. The bible is full of examples of people witnessing the supposed power of Yahweh, yet turning around and doubting him. Moses did it. Elijah did it. And they supposedly witnessed much greater things than you or I ever have (or likely ever will). Why are we expected to have faith even as strong as theirs?
Quote I have prayed for the sick and seen them healed. I have seen broken bones [with x-ray evidence] healed. I have seen babies come out of ICU. I have seen an arm that was crooked for 3 years straighten out. I have seen someone who fell down a flight of stairs while carrying a tv that was swollen and limping all day walk away just fine. [This was not overseas in a 3rd world country. This was in my hometown, USA- up close and personal. Any medical records? Your word is truly not good enough.
But have you seen someone cured of autism or Down's syndrome? How about cystic fibrosis? Type 1 diabetes?
Quote My close friends have seen more. People out of wheelchairs. Legs that grew right in front of their eyes. I will have to stop you right there. If this truly ever happened the world would hear of it. The silence — except these words on an obscure internet forum — is deafening
Quote Goiters disappear. Lumps disappear. Insane restored. Blind see. Deaf hear. Any documented evidence of these miraculous events? Hearsay just doesn't cut the mustard.
Quote These things are a lot more comman than you think. If you want to know more, you can pm me.
No, you should be able to provide evidence so the world can see it. Mere claims just will not suffice, I'm afraid.
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