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Katjo[Edited. Orig: “Arnold”],
You are misreading the intent of the Scriptures that you quote.
I detect that you are 'desiring horror'. Some people love being scared, frightened, even seek out fearful situations and undulge in them (You know the type: Peeping through slitted fingers at a gruesome scene while professing to 'hate' what they are seeing! I know a woman who seems intent on exposing abuse of women to her male colleagues in an almost 'pleasurable' manner even when the men themselves shudder at it. She 'hates' what she sees but revels in displaying it to those who she thinks will be 'excited' by it!)
T8, Had already explained that 'eternal torment' means 'eternally cut off from God', 'eternally Dead'.
This is what it means.Katjo[Edited. Orig: “Arnold”], you have probably been traumatised by medieval paintings by 'di vinci' and/or others depicting scenes of Satan with red hot pokers gouging men's parts out, children being eaten alive, women being…whatever…
its not true…
Just think: Satan is to be disposed of. How then is he to be eternally tormenting sinners?
Satan is a sinner, how then is he to be the tormenter of sinners?Hell is to be disposed of by Jesus. How then is it to have sinners in it being tormented forever. The scriptures would then be a lie. God would then be a liar!
Katjo[Edited. Orig: “Arnold”], Who is the Liar?Finally, Spirits cannot be tormented by physical acts. And there are only Spirits in Hell…
And finally, funally (yeah, spulling mistake but a finny one!) you are RIGHT, why would A Loving God want to torment sinners eternally in a physical way. God …'doesn't care'… About the flesh…it is the SPIRIT that has the LIFE, that he cares for. God can create a billion human bodies but if they don't have a spirit they are DUST, DEAD, just blobs of chemical elements and molecules and atoms and nucleus' and compressed energy (did you know that? Everything …everything physical is ultimately compressed energy…why do you think scientists are dangerously, suicidally, trying to smash the atom to release it's energy… Yes, and…God…is…the …source…of…all…energy…'light' it is called in the Scriptures.)
Who is the liar from the beginning? Satan.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.Go back to the beginning…
Genesis 3
” the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.”Karmarie,I know Rev; I know my bible, Ive been studying and going to church 3 times a week for years. it sounds like every one is freaked out to think there is a place of torment. BUT THERE IS! When you read something about hell and dont like it , you cannot just say its not true. NO GOD does not want you going there and he does not send you, hell is for the devil and his angels, not for Gods people, but if you choose not to have God in your life, than were else is there? God is a very loving God.BUT the bible also says to “fear God” but dont be afraid of Him. You cant deny what the scriptures says. i just showed you were Rev.20;10 says it is a place of torment day and night for ever, and Rev.14; tells us when Gods hour of judgement comes, if any man worships the beast and his image(any other god) and receives his mark in his forehead or in his hand, shall drink the wine of the WRATH of God. and be tormented with fire and brimstone, and the smoke of there torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. This is why our faith has to be so strong in God. We dont want to face eternal punishment. But we cant just blow it off and say its not so. If people thought they could go out and do anything against God they wanted and not face any consequence, that would be easy way out right?We have studyed this so much in church, and our Preacher even says ,He dont want to scare people, but God tells Him to preach the word, and hell is part of Gods word and He is going to let us know about it.ITS TRUE! its in Gods word, BUT if we are faithful christians,IT IS NOT FOR US! I worry about some family members YES, and I tell them all the time, but it has to first, start in their own heart before they finally wake up. COMMENTS;
GOD BLESS,
katjoHi Katjo.
I have to go for today but regarding following what a man should tell you, (it may sound harsh but I was shown this many times myself)
Jeremiah 17
5 Thus said Jehovah: Cursed is the man who doth trust in man, And hath made flesh his arm, And from Jehovah whose heart turneth.
7 Blessed is the man who trusteth in Jehovah, And whose confidence hath been Jehovah.
9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable — who doth know it?
10 I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way,“For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.” ..Hebrews 4:12
If we are commanded to love, then love should be what we live by.
Love for God love for neighbour means letting go of the errors of thinking we will be happy in heaven while others are being tortured in hell forever.Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for another. Thats what Jesus did.
Katjo,
EVEN IF Hell is as you say, us denying it does not make ANY difference. Both YOUR outcome and OUR outcome are the same:
The Sinner is cut off permanently from God
Also, neither of US, ANY of US are NOT saying “Fear God … but Love God”.
To Fear God is to fear what NOT loving Him of our Free Will will result in.
To love God is to know what loving Him of our Free Will will result in.Also, NO ONE of US is saying that we can go out and do what we want against God and not face the consequences. In fact, WE are saying exactly the opposite.
So, all in all, your arguments are all mute – we aren't saying what you claim we are saying – Believe me – look again.
The ONLY difference is:
You say “Eternal Punishment – physically” (Our bodies are tortured everlastingly) By whom – Satan, as depicted in a painting by Atheists?
We say “Eternal Punishment Spiritually” (Our Spirits are destroyed – permanently – that is, Eternal destruction)Katjo, here is a verse by verse account:
Rev 14:
10: … and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Katjo, The wicked are Tormented. Then, the SMOKE of their Torment ascends everlastingly [as a warning to ALL as to what rebellion against God results in] – Where does it say “They are Tormented forever”?
Do you say “No rest day nor Night”… The Spirits of the DEAD have no place to rest… they have NO Spiritual ABODE… They CANNOT BE (Exist)
Hi Katjo.
Heres a word study I did a while back.
I use Youngs Literal Translation whenever I want to cheak the original words usedMatthew 25:46
“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
'age during punishment = a time of punishment, and life- age during = a time of life.
So it seems theres a time where some are punished and some are in life. Both for a period of time. So then what?
It would then be the Judgment day, the Great white throne judgment.A keyword search of these words…(In youngs Literal)..eternal eternity forever everlasting had very few finds and only applied to God and the Son.
the words 'age during'
– pages and pageshttp://www.biblegateway.com/keyword….ype=all
or skip to here the New Testement with many pages following
(Halfway down the page)http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword….ber=101
So what is this age during? And what happens after this time?
Age during throughout the bible is translated from the word aionios, explained here:http://www.aionios.com/appendix_b.html
A search of the word death..theres pages and pages but it all ends with this in revelations..
“He who is having an ear — let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death..(Revelation 2:11
“Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years..(Revelation 20:6
“and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire — this is the second death;..(Revelation 20:14
“and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'..(Revelation 21:4
“and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'..Revelation 21:8
So A period of punishment or a period of peace.. followed by the final judment.. then its either eternal death or eternal life as it says
Gods gift through his Son is eternal life. So to say the wicked also have eternal life doesnt fit scripture.
“For the wages of sin is death;. but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Quote (katjo @ May 31 2010,23:31) Karmarie,I know Rev; I know my bible, Ive been studying and going to church 3 times a week for years. it sounds like every one is freaked out to think there is a place of torment. BUT THERE IS! When you read something about hell and dont like it , you cannot just say its not true. NO GOD does not want you going there and he does not send you, hell is for the devil and his angels, not for Gods people, but if you choose not to have God in your life, than were else is there? God is a very loving God.BUT the bible also says to “fear God” but dont be afraid of Him. You cant deny what the scriptures says. i just showed you were Rev.20;10 says it is a place of torment day and night for ever, and Rev.14; tells us when Gods hour of judgement comes, if any man worships the beast and his image(any other god) and receives his mark in his forehead or in his hand, shall drink the wine of the WRATH of God. and be tormented with fire and brimstone, and the smoke of there torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. This is why our faith has to be so strong in God. We dont want to face eternal punishment. But we cant just blow it off and say its not so. If people thought they could go out and do anything against God they wanted and not face any consequence, that would be easy way out right?We have studyed this so much in church, and our Preacher even says ,He dont want to scare people, but God tells Him to preach the word, and hell is part of Gods word and He is going to let us know about it.ITS TRUE! its in Gods word, BUT if we are faithful christians,IT IS NOT FOR US! I worry about some family members YES, and I tell them all the time, but it has to first, start in their own heart before they finally wake up. COMMENTS;
GOD BLESS,
katjo
To katjo,When presented with clear teaching and prophecy that appears to contradict, clear teaching should win because it is clear and not open to speculation and interpretation. Prophecy is interpreted and symbolic and is not clear because its meaning is purposefully hidden. Clear teaching and instruction is purposefully clear and open and meant to be understood on the outset. It doesn't need certain things or conditions to take place in order for it to be understood.
You say you know your bible, but do you really? Do you for example know these clear teachings?
What about the most quoted text in the bible. Do you know what it is saying? Is it not saying that we will not perish because we believe.John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.or 2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.Or this pearl in 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.Then you have to contend with:
Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.And finally how do you reconcile that fact that God is going to make a new creation free of suffering.
Isaiah 65:17
Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”So, in the new creation there is no sin or suffering. No pain or crying, for the former things have passed away. And it is written that God will be in ALL and we know that this will happen because God will redeem and perfect that which he will dwell in. So if the wicked are still alive, then this could not be true. But we are told that the wicked will be destroyed. It is called the Second Death. All the wicked go to the Second Death.
Isn't God good and merciful.
No one is understanding what I said. I said; your SOUL is going one place or the other. but when judgement day comes all the dead will rise(bodily) to be judged, And yes Rev. does say;FOREVER,20;10 AND THE DEVIL THAT DECEIVED THEM AS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROHETS ARE, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER. and no i dont listen to what a man tells me, but when our preacher tells us He shows us the proof in the bible. You cant beleive some of it but not all of it. God warns of how bad hell is. We might not like it but He does not lie, and there is plenty of scriptures on it in the bible.
katjoOK, will start off small then.
Do you believe John 3:16?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.Do you believe that the wicked will perish?
Do you believe that the wicked will be destroyed?
Do you believe that the wicked will never have eternal life?Yes, no, or yes and no?
Hi Katjo, sorry about my long posts, looks like we all have alot to say about the topic. t8s right, better to start off small.
T8 we will all be judged to go somewhere. Yes I beleive John 3;16 those who keep there faith and walk with God will have eternal life. wicked will have eternal life in hell. I quoted you scripture were the wicked are and will be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER from Rev. and i could quote you more. Look at Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man is begging Lazarus to bring him some water to cool his tongue and begging Him to go tell his family so they dont have to come to that place. we might not like the sound of it but IT IS IN GODS WORD! We prepare our life on earth for our eternal life!
katjo
Quote (JustAskin @ May 31 2010,22:42) Katjo[Edited. Orig: “Arnold”], You are misreading the intent of the Scriptures that you quote.
I detect that you are 'desiring horror'. Some people love being scared, frightened, even seek out fearful situations and undulge in them (You know the type: Peeping through slitted fingers at a gruesome scene while professing to 'hate' what they are seeing! I know a woman who seems intent on exposing abuse of women to her male colleagues in an almost 'pleasurable' manner even when the men themselves shudder at it. She 'hates' what she sees but revels in displaying it to those who she thinks will be 'excited' by it!)
T8, Had already explained that 'eternal torment' means 'eternally cut off from God', 'eternally Dead'.
This is what it means.Katjo[Edited. Orig: “Arnold”], you have probably been traumatised by medieval paintings by 'di vinci' and/or others depicting scenes of Satan with red hot pokers gouging men's parts out, children being eaten alive, women being…whatever…
its not true…
Just think: Satan is to be disposed of. How then is he to be eternally tormenting sinners?
Satan is a sinner, how then is he to be the tormenter of sinners?Hell is to be disposed of by Jesus. How then is it to have sinners in it being tormented forever. The scriptures would then be a lie. God would then be a liar!
Katjo[Edited. Orig: “Arnold”], Who is the Liar?Finally, Spirits cannot be tormented by physical acts. And there are only Spirits in Hell…
And finally, funally (yeah, spulling mistake but a finny one!) you are RIGHT, why would A Loving God want to torment sinners eternally in a physical way. God …'doesn't care'… About the flesh…it is the SPIRIT that has the LIFE, that he cares for. God can create a billion human bodies but if they don't have a spirit they are DUST, DEAD, just blobs of chemical elements and molecules and atoms and nucleus' and compressed energy (did you know that? Everything …everything physical is ultimately compressed energy…why do you think scientists are dangerously, suicidally, trying to smash the atom to release it's energy… Yes, and…God…is…the …source…of…all…energy…'light' it is called in the Scriptures.)
So how long will those in hell be tormented when Jesus says:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-45Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45-47Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47-49And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-43this is physical
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49-51This is physical
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:50-51This is physical
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luke 13:27-29This is physical
Now who told you that flesh was not important it's what God placed you in
You are rejecting the part about hell, and it doesnt matter if you like it or not, God said it!! Just like i told you about Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was in a nice place and the rich man wanted water cause he was burning, to cool his tongue. he had a body, He felt the pain He remembered his family.When the saints are resurrected, all the dead shall rise, our souls meet back up with our bodys, because we get to have a ressurected body just like Christ.
katjo
Even so, O Lord God, the Ruler of all, true and righteous are Thy judgments.“Rev 15:3Great and wonderful are Thy works, O Lord God, the Ruler of all. Righteous and true are Thy ways, O King of the nations.” Rev 5:9
I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev 1:8
He who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:20
He retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.” Micah 7:18
The Lord is kind and full of pity, not quickly made angry, but ever ready to have mercy. He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.” Psalm 103:8
I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.” Isaiah 43:25“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”
Isaiah 43;25 is for people who excepte christ, your sins are forgiven than wiped away!
katjo
[The following is an actual excerpt of a debate that took
place on an atheist website forum. The debate was on
the existence of Hell. It didn’t continue past this one
exchange]
1. SG wrote:
1. THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF HELL
First and foremost, there is no physical, empirical evidence for the existence of hell (or
heaven for that matter). Being that this is so, my question for you would be why you
believe that there is a hell?
Bodhitharta: Because there is no reason not to believe in Hell anymore than
there is a reason to believe there is no suffering on earth now. In-fact people have
experienced Hellish experiences from the very beginning of time. So is that Hell?
Is being burnt in an oven or someone using your skin as a lamp shade, Hell? Is
being put on a slave ship with Iron chains around your neck and legs Hell? So the
fact is unless you can clearly see the hellish realities in this world, Hell to you will
just be a philosophical argument.
SG Wrote:
2. THAT THERE IS NO NEED FOR GOD TO HAVE CREATED HELL
There does not seem to be any logical need for a place such as hell. Even if you are a
theist, there isn't a very rational explanation as to why God would need to have created
a hell. Why would he have not simply made man so that he would live for as long as it
took him to attain the purity and piety that most church doctrines say is necessary for
the entry to heaven?
Bodhitharta: Hell was created for the same reason that prisons were created.
Those who are outlaws are responsible for themselves being in prison. Would you
recommend that all the rapist, child molesters and murderers be released from
prison or do you find it Just that repeat offenders be locked up permanently?
SG Wrote:
3. ARGUMENT AGAINST HELL (or heaven for that matter) AS BEING A
PREDETERMINED DESTINATION
As quoted from Bodhitharta's profile…
Bodhitharta Quote:
It has already been pre-determined who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell.
SG Wrote:
If this were true, as you would appear to think, then what would be the point of praying,
going to mass, reading scripture, doing good deeds, etc…? Further, if another life after
this existed and it were already predetermined as to where we would end up… then why
would we even need this life?
Wouldn't you just skip all of the pain and suffering in this lifetime and just go straight
to heaven, where I am assuming you believe that you are going?
And wouldn't it be easier for me to skip straight to hell, as I'm assuming that you
believe I am going to go to, as I am Agnostic?
Bodhitharta: I would like for you to understand what the word determined
means, If you are determined to go to Hell it means that you are doing so with
resolute purpose. The determination of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell
has been set by such rules that determine the outcome. In other words if you want
to go to heaven simply be determined to go and then with that determination
follow the path of righteousness with honesty and love. God does not send to Hell
those that are determined to please Him.
SG Wrote:
4. THAT THE EXISTENCE OF A HELL WOULD TAKE AWAY FROM THE
GLORY OF A HEAVEN
Consider the following bits of catharsis which I like to use in my radio shows…
Two men are walking down the street. The two men had been good friends for years
and were laughing and recounting times past, when an out of control bus swerves
towards the men. Just as the bus is about to hit one of the men, the other man rushes
over and pushes him out of the way, effectively saving the first man's life at the cost of
his own.
The man whose life had been saved was forever grateful that his friend had given his
life that he might live. Years later, when the man died and arrived in heaven, he went
looking for his friend, but an angel told him that his friend was in hell.
“But why is he in hell?” asked the confused man “This man saved my life.”
“Yes,” said the angel “but he was also an atheist and so he is in hell.”
“But it isn't fair.” screamed the man, as he broke down in tears at the thought of his
dearest friend in the torments of hell for all eternity.
“No, it isn't fair… but don't yell at me,” said the angel “After all, I didn't make up the
rules… I just work here.”
———————————————————
The point of this semi-humorous story is to illustrate the common argument that, if
heaven is the greatest thing which one could ever hope to imagine, then how could
anything exist which took away from that greatness?
Bodhitharta: This story is a common misconception of why someone goes to
Hell. A person who goes to Hell is wronging their own soul. How can it be wrong
to give someone what they earned. However, I must state what would the motive
be for the Atheist to save the man? I don't think it would've happened that way. If
you don't believe in life after death you would be way to careful to give your one
and only life away. So, any story like this is always hypothetical.
SG Wrote:
Aside from the story above, another way of telling this argument would be to imagine
that if you had a child, sibling, or parent who did not share in your faith. Then just
imagine how you could be in the eternal bliss that is heaven, with the knowledge that
you cannot interact with them, because they are in hell.
In other words, the argument against hell in this case illustrates how if hell existed, it
would take away from the concept of heaven… and therefore, if one believed in a
heaven, as I am assuming that you do, then hell could not exist.
Bodhitharta: What creates height is depth. How do you know that you have a
wealth of something unless you are aware of its opposite. Does hate take away
from the concept of love or does it magnify the intensity of love. Take a food you
really hate and chew it up. Then take a food you really love and chew that
afterwards.
[Immediately after this exchange I was banned from
posting at this atheist forum.]Karmarie,
We can know that Hell is not a place of simply not being alive anymore as you have said
It was revealed to me by The Holy Spirit of God for me to explain it to you by saying
that remember everyone will be judged “ACCORDING to thy works”This tells me that there will even be lessor and greater punishment in other words the person who had a few
neighborhood fist fights and died getting hit by a car wthout ever taking the time to really consider God will not
be punished the same as Hitler or someone who killed a village with poison in the well.So the KEY is in the word ACCORDING
Now I have also noticed or remembered you saying two things that conflict
on one hand you say that Hell is simply eternal death
on the other hand you said that hell was seperation from God and is expressed as regret and remorseThese two don't agree, if someone is simply punished with eternal death they can have NO remorse or regret
A person would have to be living in some form or another to feel the punishment.Now if we take one of these verses of Jesus
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44-46Note that to say the fire will never be quenched would carry no psychological weight to the reader if there is no “feeling” of this fire
who cares if the fire burns forever if you have no conscious notion of it?and now look at this verse
Luke 12:4-6 (King James Version)
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Now notice the scripture says fear him that can do more to you after the physical body is dead, now why would someone fear someone
simply putting them in the same state as the dead physical body.When you see words like torment or gnashing those are active words that can't apply to a simply nonexistent consciousness
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