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Hello Chap
No, without the breath you can not live;
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, THEY ALL HAVE ONE BREATH; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”All that have the breath of life, ARE SOULS, and in the grave they no nothing;
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”These verses don't indicate that Hell is real?
Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mark 9:43-48
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.Mark 9:43-48
“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries”
Quote (acertainchap @ July 31 2007,00:31) These verses don't indicate that Hell is real? Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mark 9:43-48
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.Mark 9:43-48
“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries”
Actually, none of those indicat a hell unless hell is what you are looking for.To begin with, just because a fire is eternal doesn't mean that you are cast into it eternally. I don't know what you believe this eternal fire is. some believe it is the lake of fire.
But the lake of fire is the second death, and scriptures tell us that the dead know nothing. So obviously a person can not be dead and suffer for eternity. The lake of fire can not be hell because hell is cast into the lake of fire.The simple fact is that there is no such thing as hell.
Simple words like grave, pit and even a garbage dump outside of Jeruselum were translated to hell by men that wanted to scare people into loving God. How can you be scared into loving someone?The Mark passages that you referred to were simply used to indicate that you would be better off removing whatever limb caused you to be punished than to let it get you in to trouble.
How many people do you really think cut off their hands or plucked out their eyes. I would guess maybe zero.Those who enter the straight and narrow (difficult) way will enter into the Kingdom of God, but those who go the broad way will go into DESTRUCTION. This is certainly true. However. What is the final destiny of those who go the broad way to destruction. Is there hope for the lost, the perish, the destroyed? Jesus said, “The Son of Man is come to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10, Matt. 18:11).
The word translated “lost” is the Greek word “apollumi” which is translated “LOST,” “PERISHED,” and “DESTROYED.” Jesus Christ said that He is come to SAVE all those who are “apollumi”–destroyed, perished, and lost.
But does anyone believe Jesus?
Tim
The grave is our hell, that is what hell really means, a hole in the ground; that's were you place the dead, in a hole/hell, a grave.
A hell burning with fire is the imagination of men; have you heard about “Dante's Inferno”?
Jesus referred to a place outside Jerusalem, Valley of Hinnom, a garbage dump. Everything from garbage to dead animals to executed criminals were burned there, the fire burned day and night; but it does not burn there any more; it has been quenched.
Where do we get the idea that fire preserves anyway?
Any one that has received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and has been taught in the truth, and has been given an understanding of the word of God, and than falls away, there is no more forgiveness for such a one. He is trampling on the sacrifice of Christ. His end will be the lake of fire, total destruction, from which there is no resurrection. It will be his hell/grave for eternity, but there will be no torture, he will be ashes;
Mal. 4:1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire, says the LORD Almighty. Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
v. 3 “Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things, says the LORD Almighty.”What about all these people who have died and then were brought back to life by the grace of God? Many of them have claimed to have seen Hell firsthand, yet many have claimed to have seen Heaven firsthand, as well.
2Pe 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
Sodom and Gomorrah is an example to the wicked. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
The wicked “shall be ashes”. Burned up, destroyed, ASHES.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are found guilty: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
The inhabitants of the earth are burned and few men left.
Mat 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will BURN UP with unquenchable fire.
The fire is unquenchable NOT those thrown in the fire! Those thrown in the fire are BURNED UP!Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will DESTROY body and soul, NOT continually burn them forever and ever.
Rev 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured burning forever?
I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.
Quote (kenrch @ July 31 2007,03:09) No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured burning forever? Rev 20:14 “'And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.'”
“Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!”I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.
No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured burning forever?*First off, who ever said that people in the NEW KINGDOM would be able to see this?
Rev 20:14 “'And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.'”
“Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!”*Don't you mean eternal death in fire?
“I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.”
*Why do we have free-will? Can you explain this? What is the point of it?
*'Where the worm dieth not.' What does that mean to you?
What about the tale of the Rich Man and Lazarus? As evenly important, what would be the point of The Great Throne Judgement if all the unsaved were to meet the same fate?
If you don't answer, I assume that you agree with me.Quote (acertainchap @ July 31 2007,08:50) Quote (kenrch @ July 31 2007,03:09) No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured burning forever? Rev 20:14 “'And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.'”
“Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!”I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.
No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured burning forever?*First off, who ever said that people in the NEW KINGDOM would be able to see this?
Rev 20:14 “'And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.'”
“Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!”*Don't you mean eternal death in fire?
“I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.”
*Why do we have free-will? Can you explain this? What is the point of it?
*'Where the worm dieth not.' What does that mean to you?
What about the tale of the Rich Man and Lazarus? As evenly important, what would be the point of The Great Throne Judgement if all the unsaved were to meet the same fate?
If you don't answer, I assume that you agree with me.
What is the second death? Does that mean eternal life burning?And NO I meant eternal life burning. According to your hell these people ARE ALIVE and burning forever.
But you are right the wages of sin is death NOT eternal life in burning fire, but ETERNAL death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Chap If I had a son that in short made Hitler look like santa clause I couldn't burn him forever. I could burn him up STOP him from existing.
Accept what I gave or don't. We will find out during the Mellennium.
Quote (acertainchap @ July 31 2007,08:50) Quote (kenrch @ July 31 2007,03:09) No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured burning forever? Rev 20:14 “'And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.'”
“Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!”I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.
No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured burning forever?*First off, who ever said that people in the NEW KINGDOM would be able to see this?
Rev 20:14 “'And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.'”
“Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!”*Don't you mean eternal death in fire?
“I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.”
*Why do we have free-will? Can you explain this? What is the point of it?
*'Where the worm dieth not.' What does that mean to you?
What about the tale of the Rich Man and Lazarus? As evenly important, what would be the point of The Great Throne Judgement if all the unsaved were to meet the same fate?
If you don't answer, I assume that you agree with me.
Hi chap,You said, “First off, who ever said that people in the NEW KINGDOM would be able to see this?” and then you said “What about the tale of the Rich Man and Lazarus?”
Isn't that what you think that the parable of Lazarus and
the rich man is telling you. Lazarus can see across the gulf to see the rich man suffering in hell. And it is a parable, not a tale. I explained what a parable was to you in another thread.You said, “Why do we have free-will? Can you explain this? What is the point of it?”
It would take much to long to explain, and you probably would not want to believe me any way, but there is no such thing as “free will” independent of the will of God.
You and everyone else has free choice, but if God wills differently, believe me, it will happen. I have also given you many scriptures that prove that God makes people do as He wants, against their will.You said, “As evenly important, what would be the point of The Great Throne Judgement if all the unsaved were to meet the same fate?”
Nobody said that everyone meets the same fate. The judgement is just that. And some will get many stripes and some will get few. But none will burn for ever and ever in a hellhole pit of fire.Tim
What about people who have died and brought back, only to claim that they saw hell and people who have died and claimed to have seen Heaven? Surely at least one of these millions of people would have saw an actual hell without Satan clouding their vision. If you don't respond to this, then I assume that you agree with me.
Quote (acertainchap @ Aug. 01 2007,00:03) What about people who have died and brought back, only to claim that they saw hell and people who have died and claimed to have seen Heaven? Surely at least one of these millions of people would have saw an actual hell without Satan clouding their vision. If you don't respond to this, then I assume that you agree with me.
Chap, IFthis is true and these people come back and decide to do good because of their “vision” then their righteousness is false because they become “good” because of fear and not love.Quote (acertainchap @ Aug. 01 2007,00:03) What about people who have died and brought back, only to claim that they saw hell and people who have died and claimed to have seen Heaven? Surely at least one of these millions of people would have saw an actual hell without Satan clouding their vision. If you don't respond to this, then I assume that you agree with me.
Hi chap,assuming that people agree with you merely because they do not respond to you is entirely unwarranted.
You will go through life believing that everyone that does not respond to you agrees with you.Many people tell many stories about near death experiences.
The defining word being “near” death.
Let someone who has been clinically dead for at least 30 minutes be brought back to life and see what their story is.Tim
Tim
A man who was there for 23 minutes. After all, who would wish for seven minutes longer in that place? I'm sorry but it seems that we are divided on this issue.
Hell is real and here is his story. Copy and paste this to your internet browser.Hi chap,
This man had a dream that he was in hell for 23 minutes. He was not dead and got a glimpse
of hell before he was revived. You are correct, we are devided on this issue.
I do not believe fictional stories from people who want their 15 minutes of fame.
Jesus warned us about these people.I honestly feel a deep sadness that you must live with the thought that our God would torture
anyone that way for even 23 minutes, let alone for eternity. I pray for your peace of mind chap.Tim
Chap,
Please read carefully what the scriptures have to say about God's use of fire.
Our merciful and graceful loving God and Father does not eternally torture humanity IN fire, but rather eternally saves humanity BY fire.
Let’s read it and rejoice:
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE” (I Cor. 3:13-15).
Does everyone understand this? NO ONE is tortured, killed, or annihilated in this fire! This fire of God SAVES people who go through it! There is salvation BY means of this fire. This fire is part of God’s judgment and grace!
Some people feel better believing in torture and hell. It gives them comfort thinking that other people will go there and not them.
I feel better believing in the grace of God.Tim
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