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Nick,
You actually teach that PARABLES are NOT FILLED WITH SYMBOLS?
You actually teach that a PARABLE IS NOT AN ALLEGORY?
Look up what the word allegory means.
No B,
But I do not allegorise the truth.In Luke 16 Jesus gave us the best teaching ever on the nature of Hades and you do not seem to want to accept his words.
Why is that?
You really have no idea what a parable is, do you.
To be honest, I wouldn't have bothered discussing it with you in that case. I thought you were aware of what a parable was.
Sorry to have wasted time.
In Jesus,
Berean2005
Hi david,
What do you make of the second death, the lake of fire. Do you think it is just the same as the first death?
The beast and the false prophet were cast into it in Rev 19.20 and were still there 1000 yrs later, at the end of the millenial kingdom in Rev 20.10-15It is so wonderful to hear others who have the same understanding (other than those in your own church) of such argued issues in the bible! The bible never once says man will inherit eternal torture, NO! Man will either inherit eternal life, or die again. Eternal damnation does exist… but the second death IS the eternal damnation, this in no way means being tortured forever. However, I do have another understanding of “hell” and “heaven” and whether or not there are people dwelling in them right now (whether or not we go straight to heaven when we die). The bible makes it clear that no one will rise until the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the last trumpet. EVERYONE will rise (at separate occasions), to face judgement, including even the worst people to have ever walked the earth… but they (deniers of Christ) will never put on the immortality and receive eternal life – true followers gift from God purchased through Christ's blood!!
Hope I explained that simply enough. If I confused anyone talk to me! I also would love to share information on God's Holy Days and Easter, Christmas, etc……
email me – [email protected]It was this topic which first drove me to search for the truth beyond the official doctrine. For me it was just so inconsistent with the character of God. Not that there wouldn't be a punishment, the scriptures are clear on that, But that gramma (or any other soul), would be tortured eternally, (even for refusing the greatest gift) seemed cruel beyond measure.
To me this one teaching seems to have done more to dissuade the world then any other I know of. I believe people will be drawn to Christ when we portray Him accurately and behave as we should (so He can truly be seen in us).
Hi,
Kenrch has reminded us that david has used commonsense in the past as equivalent to scripture in interpreting the nature of the second death or the Lake of fire.“would you burn your son for eternity” is the theme of his logic.
Do others agree this is the right way to look at scripture?
In my understanding of it an eternal hell would neccesitate eternal existence in order to endure it.
As I understand it God is the only one who exists eternally, along with the sons of God who do so by inheritance of life eternal that is from the Father.
In place in scripture it says behold the former things are finished and shall no more come to mind.
If there was a place that eternally existed in which the souls of the wicked were tormented would this be possible?
My understanding is that the lake of fire is a place of terrible punishment in which the souls of the disobedient shall be subjected to a just recompence of reward. It may be an aeon of time but I believe there will be a point at which those souls are totally annihilated.
It speaks of the fire of Babylon going up forever – yet this cannot be an eternal smoke, it is for an exceptionally long time though I would imagine.
IMHOHi Malcolm,
You may be right. Certainly Jesus said body and soul could be destroyed there. We really have no concept of time on these matters.Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Moving on: When the scriptures mention the 'wicked', they often refer to the following 2 words, 'perish' and 'destruction'.
Lets first of all look at some versus that talk about the wicked perishing.PERISH:
The Greek word for perish according to the Strongs Concordance, means to destroy fully, die or mar.To understand the meaning and context of the word perish; try the next 2 scriptures.
Colossians 2:21-22 21
21 Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.Hebrews 1:10-12
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.The following scriptures tell us that the wicked will perish too.
2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.The verse you have just read shows that the wicked will be destroyed/perish like beasts.
Now if that somehow means that the wicked suffer eternal torment, then we can only conclude given that argument that animals will also suffer eternal torment.
Doesn't sound right to me, I would suggest that both are destroyed ie;, they no longer exist.1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.Romans 2:12
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.2 Thessalonians 2:10
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.*John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.DESTRUCTION:
The Greek word for 'Destruction' according to the Strongs Concordance, can mean the following:
Perdition, waste, to die, destroying, utter destruction of vessels, ruin.To understand the meaning and context of the word destruction; Read the next 2 scriptures:
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.The following scriptures tell us that the wicked will also be destroyed.
Romans 9 22
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of peo
ple ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.It is possible that the fire God uses to destroy the universe is the Lake of Fire itself?
Isaiah 65:17
Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.Revelation 21:1-2
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.Note: If Hell is inside the earth and the earth is destroyed then can Hell exist after the destruction of the earth?
Also: The words “passed away” in the Strongs means 'Perish' or 'Go away'. The words 'Everlasting Destruction' actually mean that they will always be destroyed.
That is God's punishment to the wicked. They will never have life.
It is also God's mercy to the wicked because nobody really wants to exist forever in a sinful state, cut away from the presence of God who is Love and the source of all good.The last verse summarizes the truth that sinners lose their lives and destroyed:
Mark 8:36
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?Thanks t8,
I will ponder on it.But we do not know how long destruction takes as it is unlike the first physical death consuming man's pathetic bodies.
What of Satan and his condemned hordes? Are they destroyed or not?
The word “hell” only adds confusion in my view.
Hi Nick,
I am not sure at this stage regarding angels/demons. But I guess if there is a place in the next age where wicked beings are placed, then it seems that besides God's new Heaven and Earth, there will exist a place of crying and pain. In that scenario the old things do remain and the wicked do in fact have eternal life, albeit an eternity of suffering. I personally cannot see that, but I am willing to to change if the truth is contrary to what I have described.
As far as men go, I believe that they will suffer the same fate as the earth and the heavens.
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.One thing I know so far is that the wicked will perish, (they will be destroyed). I suppose if we are to talk about this, the only thing I think that can be debated is the meaning of the words 'perish' and 'destruction'. Or a possible but unlikely tampering with the scriptures that teach that the wicked will be destroyed and perish.
I look forward to your ideas and input.
Hi t8,
622 apollumi: perish. destroy, destroy utterlyThe word is almost the only one used in NT scripture to mean “perish”
And almost always it is used of things that are known to be perishable, the things that are visible and of this world.
the earth
humans
bodies
parts of bodies
clothing
jewellery
riches
It is used in about 26 occasions in relationship to such visible created matter.The challenge then is to find where it refers to invisible things like souls and angels and try to fathom the comparable meaning.
The word “HELL” was added to our bibles. You should note that the word hell is not used in the old testament. “HELL” is part of the Pagan religions. The word “GRAVE” is sometimes translated as “HELL.
Hell exists. The devil has man believing it doesn't and that hell is just the grave or sleep. Now man no longers fears death.
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