Hell

[NickHassan]

hi t8
The Isaiah verse is shown also in Rev 22.14-15 outside the gates of the new Jerusalem but we will be inside?

[Proclaimer]

Revelation 22:14-15
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

If we took that literally which is possible, it would mean that there was total corruption outside of the city of God. But I think that all of creation will be perfect so that God can dwell in all things, as he does create a new heaven and a new earth. The Heavenly city doesn't encompass all of the heavens physically or literally, or does it? I know it is a place where the government of God is and where the throne is. E.g. there is a description regarding the gates to the city. What is before those gates surely wouldn't be total corruption would it? My understanding is that Paradise is outside the city, or that the city is in Paradise, (Heaven).

If we took the verse symbolically it could mean that outside of the promise (the city of God) there would be corruption. In other words those who were/are corrupt can not enter into the city. They have been shut out from God forever. They can never enter the city.

I am not sure if this verse can be used literally to explain the destiny of the wicked except to say that they have no part in God's kingdom and never will they walk through the Heavenly city.

What are your thoughts? Are the wicked lurking outside the city? Or are they just shut out from it forever. If the answer were the former, it would indicate that the Heavenly city were actually in the fire itself and the only place of refuge was this floating sanctuary.

So if the wicked and the Lake of Fire were outside, then inside is the city?

[NickHassan]

Hi t8.
The beast and the false prphet are cast into the Lake of Fire in Rev 19 before the Judgement in rev 20. Since everyone is still on the old earth then it is likely that it too is on that earth . My suggestion is that it is a new fiery pool opened up by the earthquakes at that time near Jerusalem.
It is gehenna to me or the 'Hell' that is mentioned 13 times in the Gospels in my NASB, mainly in Matthew.

If the same name “lake of Fire” appears in the new earth it gives weight to the thought that it is the old earth, renovated.

[NickHassan]

Ok T8,
Do you see any significant difference between Rev 21 25-27and Rev 22.15f? In my view the first is a repeat and an enlargement of the second but others disagree.
I would value your view.

[NickHassan]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 05 2005,00:30)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2005,18:30) Hi t8, What do you make of Is 66.24? It is quoted in Mk 9.45 as Gehenna so that makes it a risk for the human listeners to the words of Yeshua. Hi Nick, The verse talks about the flesh or carcasses of the wicked. I am not sure that you hold to the view that their bodies are preserved in some kind of eternal state of decay as a reminder for us. Does not the body go back into the earth from where it came? Does God destroy the earth? To me the real question is, can the soul be destroyed. I think so, and that is why God stopped man from eating from the Tree of Life, lest he live forever as a sinner. Which is what the 'eternal torment' teaching seems to say. Isaiah 66.24 is an interesting scripture and of course should never be ignored if one's belief seems in contradiction to it. But it is talking about the flesh. I am not sure how this is suppose to be viewed? Literally or is it symbolic? Either way it is talking about the flesh, not the souls from what I can see. Isaiah 66:24 24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” Other translations use carcasses instead of bodies. We read in another verse that the body turns back to dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it. Of course it may be possible that even though God purges creation of all sin and he dwells in all, that there may be another dimension where the fire burns. It is a lot to assume, but I guess it is possible. Still searching…

Hi t8,
What you say about the natural body is true. But we do not know about the resurrected body or corpse. When their bodies are reconstructed from wherever their parts have been strewn in land or sea we are not told how they will now behave are we? After all death itself has already been cast into the lake of fire so we do not know if the second death is of the same nature as the first do we?

We do not know if resurrected bodies retain the same characteristics as before they died and we should not assume their nature is the same?

If scripture states they remain as is outside the walls of the new Jerusalem then perhaps what it says is what it means?

I don't know but am still searching here.

[NickHassan]

ps What do you make of Rev 14. 9-11?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If we understand so little about death itself then how can we hope to understand the second death? Could it be eternal death?

I refuse to be satisfied by answers that say that
“God could not be like that” or
“God is kind and fair like me” or
“God loves everybody and couldn't do that”

Those answers are based on human judgement and wisdom and the only source of true spiritual wisdom is the Word and the Spirit.

[Proclaimer]

To Nick,

My current belief that people will not burn in extreme pain forever is not so much based on my opinion that this shouldn't happen, rather it is founded in the scriptures that talk about the destruction of the wicked and the many references to the wicked perishing. This I cannot ignore and it agrees with my distaste of torture.

E.g. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whomever should beleive on him shall not PERISH, but have everlasting life.

So it appears that we either live forever, or we perish.

I do however think that my distaste for torture and hurting others comes from God for God is love and he is also forgiving. God is perfect and desires to inhabit all of his creation by his Spirit. But in order for that to happen, God sent Yeshua to make all God's enemies his footstool. That said however, I will admit that there are certain verses that do not fit this view, mainly the verses that you have pointed out. But I think that if I changed my view based on those verses, then the scriptures regarding destruction of the wicked would now be in conflict.

First of all, I think that the true understanding of judgement for the wicked will not conflict with any verse of scripture, so I am the first to admit that I am still searching out this matter and am open to accepting the truth when it is presented to me.

At this stage I feel that the verses that talk about destruction of the wicked are numerous and straight teachings while the verses that talk about the wicked burning in the Lake of Fire forever are few and are written amongst many other scriptures that are symbolic in nature. So I personally would like to understand those scriptures. I feel that this is a good direction for me to go in order to understand comprehend this subject.

Your explanation regarding the Lake being on earth (a renovated earth) is possible and seems to fit well. But I still think that 2 Peter 3:7 is saying that the same fire that is reserved for the heavens and earth is the same fire for ungodly men. It seems to suggest a fire as big as the universe itself. Interestingly enough most scientists are in agreement that the universe will end and that it had a beginning.

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

I know that your view is that there is a smaller fire for the ungodly and it culminates to the big one. That is quite possible and seems to make these verses fit together in a uncontradictory way. But if we take that view, we know that the fire that melts the universe is so that the old is done away with and then God can create a new and inhabit all his creation. Given this understanding we would have to assume that God actually leaves a little bit of the fire as a testimony/reminder for future generations of the fate of the wicked.

This view still doesn't necessarily mean that the wicked are alive at this point as that means they also have eternal life, albeit a life of pain and suffering. My conclusion is to meditate and pray that God would reveal the true understanding. Even Yeshua himself said:

John 8:25-26
25 “Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus replied.
26“I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

[Ramblinrose]

The following writings may be of assistance to the topic at hand.

http://www.shmabelievers.org/id4.html

Scriptures testifying about death 1 to 6.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,

Yes there is some valuable insight there but the writer falls into the trap of not understanding fully Gen2 and not discerning between the “inner man” and the “outer man” thus seeing man as a combined body/soul entity and disallowing any reference to the soul as a separate entity as shown in 1Thess.

It also highlights the value of our weak tent/body and distorts the meaning of all scriptures where these two entities are shown.

He warns of eternal damnation then denies it has meaning.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
I too am still searching. Do you think the beast and the false prophet are human and do you agree they spent at least 1000yrs[the Millenial reign]in the lake of fire without being destroyed?

[Anonymous]

Hello there,

I would like to know what you all think of Revelation 14:9-11 where it says that people will have no rest, day or night, i.e., the ones who worship the beast…

[NickHassan]

Welcome.SS,
Rev 14.9f
” Then another angel, a third one, followed them saying with a loud voice
'If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger;
and
he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb.And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;they will have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image and whoever receives the mark of his name”

To me we cannot ignore the “and” in any phrase.

The first applies these warnings to only those who worship the beast and receive the mark.

The first warning seems to relate to suffering the complete expression of God's wrath in the last half of the tribulation.
The second risk is of destruction of the body and the eternal suffering of the soul in the Lake of fire following the second resurrection.

That is what you are talking about and it is written as eternal and continuous without even a break for rest as human tormentors would need.

[NickHassan]

Hi Berean,
You may be interested in this forum.

[berean2005]

Revelation is filled with symbolic language. It is filled with symbols.

John does tell us 'exactly' what the image of a burning lake of fire and sulfur was. John explains what the lake of burning fire and sulfur is. John tells us the lake of burning fire and sulfur is death — the second death.

The first death is a 'sleep' because there is resurrection from the first death.

The second death is not sleep — the second death is permanent death. There is no resurrection from the second death.

Jesus Christ died to save us from the second death.

The punishment for sin, from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation, is death.

Revelation is 'filled' with symbols. It is important to understand what these symbols actually mean. Sometimes John explains some of the symbols, and sometimes John does not. Just as some of Jesus' parables are explained, and some of His parables are not explained.

In the case of the image of the lake of burning fire and sulfur, John explain this one for us.

I will close with the words of Jesus, who I believe is God and man:

Luke 17:26-27
26As it happened in the days of Noah, even so will it be also in the days of the Son of Man. 27They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Jesus tells us the Final Judgement will be just like the destruction of sinners during the flood. Jesus goes on to say:

Luke 17:28-30
28Likewise, even as it happened in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from the sky, and destroyed them all. 30It will be the same way in the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

Jesus is asking us, “Do you want to know what the Final Judgment will be like when all men are resurrected and will stand before Him? Just look at what happened during the Flood,” Jesus tells us. “Just look at what happened during the days of Lot,” Jesus says. For, according to Christ, the Final Judgment will be the same. Let us therefore heed these two great examples of God's terrible wrath.

The punishment for sin is death.

Berean2005

[berean2005]

By the way, regarding the word 'soul' in Scripture.

It does not say Adam was given a soul, instead, it says Adam became a soul. Adam was a soul. In the Scriptures, both men and animals are called 'souls'. Men are created in God's image and likeness, as it is written in Genesis 1:27. However, man is still only a temporary, mortal creature formed from the dust of the ground, the same as the animals are. Scripture teaches that man has no advantage over the animals — both die and become dust. Souls die, of course, because of sin.

The Hebrew word 'Nephesh' (neh'-fesh) is translated as 'soul' in most English Bibles. This same Hebrew word, 'Nephesh' is also translated as 'creature'.

Here are a few examples:

Genesis 1:20-21
20God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures (Nephesh), and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of sky.” 21God created the large sea monsters, and every living creature (Nephesh) that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:24
24God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures (Nephesh) after their kind, cattle, creeping things, and animals of the earth after their kind,” and it was so.

Therefore, according to Scripture, both animals and men 'are' living souls. As it is written in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20:
19For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity. 20All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Psalm 78:50
50He made a path for his anger. He didn't spare their soul from death, But gave their life over to the pestilence,

Scripture teaches that man is a living soul. Your soul is your life. It says in Scripture that souls die, because men's lives are only mortal. Scripture doesn't use the word 'soul' the same way the pagan world religions do.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I suggest we move to the appropriate forum.

[berean2005]

THE FOUR WORDS TRANSLATED 'HELL'

Sheol: This is the Old Testament word which means the 'Grave' or 'The Pit'. The Hebrew word Sheol (translated into the Greek word Hades) signifies the state or abode of the dead. Sheol is used 65 times in the Old Testament Scriptures. In the King James Version it is translated 'Grave' 31 times, 'Hell' 31 times, and 'Pit' 3 times.

Hades: In the New Testament, the Greek word 'Hades' is used instead of the word Sheol. It has the exact same meaning as the word Sheol.
The Hebrew Old Testament, some 300 years before the Christian era, was translated into Greek, but of the 64 instances where Sheol occurs in the Hebrew, it is rendered Hades in the Greek 60 times, so that either word is the equivalent of the other. Hades is used 11 times in the New Testament. In the King James Translation, it is translated 'Hell' 10 times, and 'Grave' 1 time.

Gehenna: The Greek word “Gehenna”, often translated “hell”, comes from the Hebrew “Ghi-Hinnom”, the name of the valley to the south of Jerusalem where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh offered their sons to the Molech. In the days of Jesus, it had become the city's burning garbage dump, where garbage, sewage, dead animals, and dead criminals were cast in and consumed. Gehenna is used 12 Times in the New Testament, 11 of which are used by Jesus. It is translated 'Hell' all 12 Times in the King James Version.

Tartarus: Used only once in the Bible, is the Greek fabled place of punishment in the lower world. It is used by Peter in 2 Peter 2:4, to describe the place where the Angels who sinned are kept in 'pits of darkness' awaiting judgement. Translated 'Hell' in the King James Translation.

Hell: The word 'Hell' is actually not found anywhere in the Bible. It is a word the translators used in place of all four words above. The word hell comes from an Old Norse verb “to hide”. The word hell derives from the Old English helan, to conceal or cover. It literally means any place, or some place covered over. In Norse mythology, which predates Christianity, Hel was the goddess of death and the underworld.

Hell
Purgatory
Limbo

All 'places' invented by Rome

All 'places' not found anywhere in Scripture

In Jesus,

Berean2005

[NickHassan]

Yes,
But Jesus clarified Hades for us.
Lk 16.22
” Now the poor man died and was carried awy by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In HADES he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said
'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazrus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame'
But Abraham said
'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things , and likewise Lazarus bad things;but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this there is a great chasm fixed ,so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to here'”

[NickHassan]

Welcome Karen-A,
You may find answers here.

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