Hell

[NickHassan]

Hi bic
“Weeping and gnashing of teeth” occurs mostly in Matthew and on 3 occasions “outer darkness” is associated with it.It relates to different groups .
Matt 8.12
Mt 13.42
Mt 22.13
Mt 24.51
Mt 25.30
In Lk 13.28 it says
” In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God ,but yourselves being thrown out” which is similar to the Mt 8 11-12 relating to “Israel” only. It speaks of frustration and unhappiness and jealousy to me rather than pain.
Mt 13 relates to the “End of the age” when the wicked are removed from among the righteous by angels and thrown into the “furnace of fire”
Mt 22 relates to the wedding feast guest without wedding clothes
Mt 24 relates to the the slave who fails to serve
Mt 25 relates to the servant who fails to gain interest and may be another way of relating the previous verse above.

I am sure we can learn more from how these interrelate.
.

[bic]

Each and every one of these verses refers to the Judgment, whether of Israel or not. In each case, the wailing, weeping, and gnashing of teeth results from being REJECTED as the CHOSEN of God.

[NickHassan]

The wedding feast is a real event much spoken of in parable too. So if the ousting of the wrongly dressed guest occurs at that point timewise, it is before the judgement in Revelation.

I have always thought, rightly or wrongly, that while the second half of the tribulation occurs the wedding feast takes place?

Rev 19.9
” Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb”
Also Mt 8.11

I love the way those parables have other purposes rather than just illustrating the point at hand.

[NickHassan]

Hi bic
Is 66.22
” The new heavens and the new earth which I shall make shall endure before Me ,says the Lord, so shall your race and your name endure from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another. All mankind shall come to worship before me, says the Lord.
They shall go out and see the corpses of the men who rebelled against Me;their worm shall not die, nor their fire be extinguished and they shall be abhorrent to all mankind”

Is 65.,17 also mentions the new heavens and earth. But the moon still circles the earth?-sounds like the old one revamped.

[bic]

Revelation is a tough book to understand EVEN THOUGH it is called a REVELATION. Yet, if we read CAREFULLY, we see that Jesus returns just in time to spare humanity from extinction. Even more amazing, He is coming to “DESTROY those who destroy the earth” (Rev:11:15-18; 14:19-20; 16:16-21; 19:11-21). The return of Jesus not only ushers in the resurrection of the just but also heralds an immense slaughter of the enemies of God.

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So if the ousting of the wrongly dressed guest occurs at that point timewise, it is before the judgement in Revelation.

It may be before Judgment Day but it is during the WRATH of God. As Armageddon will take place at Jesus' return, the verses at Isaiah will be fulfilled.

[NickHassan]

Hi bic,
The Is 66 scripture seems to relate to Rev 21 1-8. If so this is after the tribulation, which includes the 'wrath of God', and after the millenial kingdom [Rev 20. 1-6] which follows the tribulation[till end of Rev 19] and is before the judgement[Rev 20.12-15]
What do you think ?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bic @ Feb. 26 2005,23:42)

Let me ask you a question. How would you feel about OUR justice system if we tortured our criminals for as long as humanly possible instead of giving them the death sentence? Would that be acceptable to you? It never ceases to amaze me that people who cry out against governments abusing prisoners have no qualms about the government of God torturing someone (for lesser crimes) for eternity. There's something wrong with that picture (but I don't see you in it). What? Is God going to blot our all our earthly memories so that we don't recognize our loved ones which don't make it or are we supposed to enjoy ourselves in heaven while we watch, listen, or just think about our best friend or family member scream in torment. What a wonderful heaven that would be!

I totally agree bic.

There is something truly wrong with that view. Thankfully I do not see scripture saying this anyway. It talks about 'destruction of the wicked' as you say. It also mentions that the 'wicked shall perish'.

I also agree that no righteous person can ignore anyone who is suffering the most horendous pain regardless of how wicked they are. I think in God's perfect Kingdom there is no crying and no pain. I also think that God's Kingdom will consume all creation. All of creation will be good in the end. I also believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire which is perhaps the same fire that God uses to destroy the universe in order to make a new one. If this view is true, then there will be no more wickedness, crying or pain. I offer the following verses to compare with my view:

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 

Praise God a new Heaven and earth, the home of righteousness.

Anyway, here is the word 'perish' being used in context of the wicked and also in other contexts.

E.g., John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Or, 2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

Now lets look at some other verses that use the same words 'perish', but unrelated to the wicked to see how this word is used. Notice what the word 'perish' means in these verses.

Colossians 2:21-22 21
21 Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Now lets look at the word detroy or 'destruction' in context of the wicked and then in other contexts.

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Now look at the word destruction in the following verse, I am sure that it is talking  about the flesh being destroyed, not a continual state of suffering and pain.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It truly amazes me when people say that the wicked will burn in flames forever and ever and feel every bit of it while screaming for all eternity. Then there's us who are saved and living in eternal bliss in God whilst totally ignoring this other part of God's creation that is in the most horendous torment forever. Those who preach this say it like it is nothing and I am sure that they do not realise what they say. Surely this is much much worse than the western world turning a blind eye to the starving. While we live in comfort they are perishing for lack of food.

If this eternal suffering doctrine were true then how can any righteous person enjoy themselves knowing that anyone suffers like this. I even hate it when animals suffer. It makes me sick when I think of those poor bears in China who are caged up and in pain as they are used like some kind of factory to extract some ingredient from one of their glands. A very painful process and I heard that these bears even try to kill themselves, but are bound in order to not bring harm on themselves.

Will not God pour his wrath out on people who do this sort of thing. It even says that if you harm a little child that it is better that you are drowned in the depths of the ocean.

I cannot condone this eternal suffering in Hell doctrine. Not only is it distasteful to me, but I have yet to see it taught in scripture. I see the opposite. I see destruction of the wicked. Eternal detruction. In other words they will be destroyed and will always remain that way for all eternity.

We use the word 'destroy' all the time, but I have never heard anyone use it in the context that some use it in the eternal hell doctrine.

Believe it or not, eternal destruction is actually God's mercy to the wicked. If the wicked had life forever, they would suffer forever and I am sure that Hell is bad enough. We know however that Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, (the Second Death). The Lake of Fire is the destruction of the universe, the old order and the wicked. We then know that God will create a new Heaven and a new Earth after this.

In God's new creation, there will be only righteousness and he will dwell in all his creation because there will be no sin.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
You may be right and I hope you are right but I would like to clarify some issues from your post. As with all matters of truth we keep on searching till there is no more to be revealed despite what our hopes and expectations may predict. Please bear with me.

The Hell to be destroyed in the Lake of fire is identified as Hades, the place of waiting only, and not Gehenna.
“Rev 20.14
” Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire..”

There are two things to be destroyed .Body and soul. We all know that the flesh is weak and vulnerable and would last milliseconds in the Lake of Fire. It is the soul that is the issue.
Mt 10.28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell” [1067 geena or Gehenna]

Some of the verses mentioned as destruction or perishing relate only to the flesh.
Lk 13.4
” Or do you suppose that those 18 on whom the tower fell in Siloam and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you ,no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish” This is physical death.
1Cor 5.5
“I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus”
Flesh again only.
2Peter 3.12
“…the earth and it's works will be burned up.Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way… ” refers to physical things, not souls likewise Heb 1.11
2 Peter 2 12 compares men with animals and our likeness to them is only at the level of flesh as Eccl tells us.

The rest of the verses certainly refer to the destruction of the soul and some verses like 1 Thess mention it is ” everlasting”.

If you see the destiny of the beast and the false prophet[both men] in Rev19.20 they are thrown into the lake of fire.They are seen again still present there after the 1000 reign in Rev 20.10
” And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are also..”

They are like us. Do they have a different destiny though they are human too? These are questions that remain for me though I have reached no fixed conclusions neither have I yet seen convincing proof that the soul suffers instant destruction. I am still listening though.

[bic]

t8: Is your moniker pronounced tate?…that's what I guessed.

Yes, good stuff, all. Personally, I know too many people who call themselves Christians who don't come close to having the heart or spirit of Christ. Most do not accept the teaching of turning the other cheek. Most still live in (and justify) the eye for an eye system of justice. Most have no sympathy on the poor and downtrodden, let alone the wicked. “They deserve what they get” is the cry and words like “worthless” and “no-good” are bandied around with contempt and self-righteousness. They don't care HOW that person arrived in their dismal condition (perhaps the unfortunate was horribly abused from infancy) only that they are THERE, and therefore DESPICABLE, and accountably so. “If you knew what kind of woman that she is, you wouldn't be letting her cry at your feet (and TOUCHING you, God forbid!)”, the (self) righteous man told Jesus. The first (in this world) despise the last and, sadly, they have traded eternal treasure for a 'puff of smoke'. Sure, they will make a fanfare of their sacrifice and their tithes and good deeds but when it comes to mercy and justice, they turn a blind eye.

This spirit, that runs in the hearts of deceived men (many who believe that God actually knows them), comes from the god of this world, the father of lies, that old serpent, called Satan and the Devil and he decieves the WHOLE WORLD. We shouldn't hold out much hope that many will turn from their evil thoughts and intentions…but we should praise God for each soul that we DO reach…and have mercy and compassion and pray often for those we don't. ALL sinners, no matter how wicked, are to be pitied and NOT despised, condemned, or abused. As you pointed out, God WILL have mercy on them when he utterly destroys them. It is ONLY with love that we can ever hope to reach the lost.

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The Hell to be destroyed in the Lake of fire is identified as Hades, the place of waiting only, and not Gehenna. “Rev 20.14 ” Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire..”

What this verse is saying is that, from this time forward, death will no longer EXIST. The only things left alive in the new heavens and earth will be eternal (immortal) things (beings). No death, no need for Hades (the abode of the dead).

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There are two things to be destroyed .Body and soul.

The body is the vessel (clay, dust, ash) that holds the life (breath, spirit, soul). Ezekiel 37 is an example of the duality of meaning that scripture often has. Not only do these verses speak of the return of Israel to the Promised Land but it also gives a glimpse into the resurrection process. Notice how when the bodies are built back up from dry bones they still are not alive until the breath of life enters therein. The soul you refer to is that breath of life…our very ESSENCE.

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Some of the verses mentioned as destruction or perishing relate only to the flesh. Lk 13.4 ” Or do you suppose that those 18 on whom the tower fell in Siloam and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you ,no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish” This is physical death.

I don't think so, Nick. Although those crushed by the tower WERE physically killed, when scripture uses the words “repent” and “perish” together, it is NOT talking about physically perishing (the flesh) but, rather, spiritually perishing (the soul). The first death (of the flesh) EVERYONE must face, repent or not. The SECOND DEATH (of the soul), however, will not be faced by the righteous, but by the wicked (unrepentant).

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If you see the destiny of the beast and the false prophet[both men]

On what do you base this? In Revelation, Chapters 4-7 mention “beasts” and in every one of these instances, these beasts are in the throne room of God and there is no reason to think that these beasts are humans. In fact, one would have to stretch understanding to think them anything but 'angelic'. Should we conclude the nature of the beast in Revelation 13 to be human? No! In fact, from the context and imagery found in that chapter, we must conclude that the beast is not even a living entity but, rather, it is a government or principality or institution (like a church).

And the false prophet? He wrought miracles (Rev:19:20), caused fire to come down from heaven (Rev:13:13), had power to give life to the image of the beast (Rev:13:15), and had unclean spirits of devils come out of his mouth like frogs (Rev:16:13,14). Hardly sounds human, does he? It's also stated that the dragon gives them their power. If they are tormented forever, it's likely that they were already eternal beings. Does scripture talk about how angelic beings (from time to time) walk about the earth? Have we not entertained angels unawares? I doubt very seriously that the false prophet is a human either.

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They are like us.

Not even.

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Do they have a different destiny though they are human too?

They have a different destiny because they are NOT human.

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These are questions that remain for me though I have reached no fixed conclusions neither have I yet seen convincing proof that the soul suffers instant destruction.

Trying to help that, brother in Christ. I feel that you are “almost persuaded”.

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I am still listening though.

Glory to God and praise the Lord!

We won't give up on you, either. But even if, by some incredulous chance, you still lean to the other understanding, we will still love you like a brother…because you ARE, and a good brother in the Lord, at that.

[NickHassan]

Hi Bic,
False miracles are not unusual events at the hands of men. The Pharoah's magicians certainly had such powers.
The beast is given the power and authority of the devil and the false prophet also exercises that authority in the presence of the beast.

[NickHassan]

ps You have not explained the future of the lake of fire and it's role in eternity?

[Proclaimer]

Hi Nick,

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2005,13:04)

The Hell to be destroyed in the Lake of fire is identified as Hades, the place of waiting only, and not Gehenna. “Rev 20.14 ” Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire..”

I think that Hades was divided into 2.

1) The place of the wicked (Hell)
2) The place of the righteous (Paradise)

The place of the wicked is where the fire of hell is and Hell is expanding.

But I personally believe that the righteous dead were freed from (Abraham's bosom) to be in Paradise in Heaven. I wrote a rather lengthy post on this in the Rapture Discussion.

Jesus preached to the dead in Hades and when he was raised so to were the graves opened up.

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Nick,

To me the following shows that no man will not live forever in a sinful state:

Genesis 3:21-24
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever .”
23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

If man had eaten from the tree of life after man had sinned, then he would have lived forever in a sinful state and therefore suffer forever perhaps? I guess that Satan could be classed as living forever as he may have had access to the Tree of Life after he sinned. I certainly do not have all the answers. As far as the False Prophet and Antichrist go, I have no answer here either. But I will seek the truth  on this matter.

But it does seem clear to me that the wicked perish.

If perishing of the flesh is the first death, then is the second death the perishing of the soul? I have to do some searching too.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bic @ Mar. 05 2005,04:44)

t8: Is your moniker pronounced tate?…that's what I guessed.

Hi Cubes,

t8 is pronounced tee eight. I never thought of it as tate before, but it makes sense.

When I was younger I wanted to get into the IT industry and so I needed time to learn how to use computers and how to program etc.

I took a job as a taxi driver and my taxi number was 8. In between fares I would open my laptop up and tap away. During that time, friends would ring up the taxi company and request me by saying “can I have t8” pick me up.

The name kinda stuck since. I like the name because the letter 't' looks like a cross and the number 8 is symbolic of Christ and salvation.

E.g., 8 people were saved in the ark and Christ is a type of ark. Also the numerical value of Jesus = 888, Christ is 1480, & Saviour is 800. All multiples of 8.

That is worked out when you take the numerical value for each Greek letter as the numerical system is built into the alphabet, just like Latin. E.g., In Latin 'V' is also '5'. In Greek, Alpha =1, Beta =2, Omega = 800 etc.

[NickHassan]

Good point about the tree of life t8,
The scripture in Lk 13 4-5 needs a closer look. It is one of the few  recorded incidents where an accident is shown to be part of God's plan and role in mankind. I suppose the suffering of Job [1.18]where Satan was allowed to cause accidents that killed his family is another. Our future is in God's hands ond we are only given life here one day at a time.

There is no doubt in my mind that the reference to the physical death of 18 people related to God's judgement. We know Peter warned us that Satan was like ” A roaring lion looking for whom he MAY DEVOUR”-he has to be allowed to cause injury or death perhaps?

Jesus does not say they were 'saints' who were killed but say they were “no worse “than others living in Jerusalem. Again when Jesus was aked about a man's deformity and whether it related to his sin or the sin of his parents Jesus replied that it was neither but so God's power would be manifest among men. But that does not exclude the possibility it could relate to the sin of his great or great great grandparents. God's curses can cover 5 generations I believe.

“unless you repent you will all LIKEWISE perish”.

What does 'likewise' mean? I would have thought it related to the particular 'accidental' event spoken about. Otherwise there is a jump in context from the physical to the soul and God does not tend to change contexts. If so you would have to say Jesus was saying their accidental death meant they were condemned to Hades and I think that is an unlikely parallel.

Yes to “perish” can be Physical or soul we know from Matt 10.28. This seems physical to me.

[Proclaimer]

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

If the fire that destroys the old order is the Lake of Fire itself (as it appears to be), then what happens when the older order passes away. For we know that the heavens and earth will pass away. We also know that those who do the will of God shall not pass away.

So if the Fire makes the Heaven and Earth pass away, what happens to the fire when it's fuel has passed away?

Does it continue to burn because there are eternal beings that cannot be burnt up (eternal fuel), or does it all pass away and leave a new creation, the home of righteousness where God dwells in all? Or is it somehow a mixture of both ideas or something else entirely?

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
What do you make of Is 66.24?
It is quoted in Mk 9.45 as Gehenna so that makes it a risk for the human listeners to the words of Yeshua.

I see a 'lake' as a defined area. I don't see the burning up of the earth as relating to that.

[Proclaimer]

Quote

I see a 'lake' as a defined area. I don't see the burning up of the earth as relating to that.

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Nick, I suppose it depends where the comma is in the above verse. If the comma is placed after the word fire, then it is the fire that is being kept for the day of judgement and the ungodly. Hence, the fire that destroys the heavens and earth is also for the ungodly. If the comma is placed after the word 'earth' and the (reserved for fire) in brackets, then it is the heavens and earth that God keeps till the day of judgement and the fire is unrelated in the way that I am saying.

The translators have put the comma after the word 'fire'. That doesn't make it right I know. But I personally hold that it should be there until proven otherwise. It just fits nicely with other scriptures and seems to make sense of the Lake of Fire and the fire that destroys the heavens and earth.

Otherwise we have 2 fires, which of course is possible. But I do not see it.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
The fire that destroys the earth is prior to the return of Yeshua. It is prior to the first resurrection and the millenial reign.
The lake of fire comes into action only at the return of Yeshua and the judgement. That is why I say they do not relate to one another.
Do you agree or am I wrong?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2005,18:30)

Hi t8, What do you make of Is 66.24? It is quoted in Mk 9.45 as Gehenna so that makes it a risk for the human listeners to the words of Yeshua.

Hi Nick,

The verse talks about the flesh or carcasses of the wicked. I am not sure that you hold to the view that their bodies are preserved in some kind of eternal state of decay as a reminder for us. Does not the body go back into the earth from where it came? Does God destroy the earth?

To me the real question is, can the soul be destroyed. I think so, and that is why God stopped man from eating from the Tree of Life, lest he live forever as a sinner. Which is what the 'eternal torment' teaching seems to say.

Isaiah 66.24 is an interesting scripture and of course should never be ignored if one's belief seems in contradiction to it. But it is talking about the flesh. I am not sure how this is suppose to be viewed? Literally or is it symbolic?

Either way it is talking about the flesh, not the souls from what I can see.

Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Other translations use carcasses instead of bodies. We read in another verse that the body turns back to dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it.

Of course it may be possible that even though God purges creation of all sin and he dwells in all, that there may be another dimension where the fire burns. It is a lot to assume, but I guess it is possible.

Still searching…

[Author]

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