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I'm going to jump right in with my understanding of the logistics that will effect all of the events as described in scripture.
Lake of fire: The earth's molten interior surfaces through many cracks in the crust (plates) and vents (volcanoes). The Great Rift Valley includes the separation of two plates extending beneath the Dead Sea. Due to the cataclysmic events that will shake the earth in the “end times”, it is not hard to imagine a lake of fire opening up close to Jerusalem.
“Cast into outer darkness” and “a new heavens and earth”: Outer darkness is undoubtedly outer space. If the wicked (including Satan) are cast into the lake of fire (on earth) and also cast into outer darkness, this would mean that the earth would be cast out of its orbit around the sun into the deepest blackness of space. An impact by an asteroid would accomplish this (two such impacts are recorded in Revelation, one affecting the rotational speed of the earth). The ripping of the earth from its orbit would affect the orbits of its adjacent neigbors (Venus and Mars) drawing each closer towards the vacated spot. This, in turn, would affect their climatic makeups. My guess is that Venus will become the new Earth.
New Jerusalem, Zion, the holy mountain of God: Revelation reveals its size and a 'cryptic' description of its makeup and Zechariah and Micah confirm its position atop the mountains.
Did I touch all of the bases?
For childofthelight: (I hope its not too late) COTL, we must read carefully when reading scripture because it is easy to jump to false conclusions. Let's look at the verses you posted but CAREFULLY so:
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Unquenchable: Not able to put out
Notice that this does not imply that it will never burn out but only that it cannot be put out. We experience unquenchable fires all the time on earth (oil fires, forest fires) but they DO burn out.
I would guess that the molten interior of the earth is unquenchable and the sun even more so but I am sure that neither will burn eternally.
Also, did you not notice that the chaff would “burn up”?
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Everlasting fire prepared for who? For ETERNAL creatures! Doesn't say what you are implying.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment,but the righteous into life eternal.
Closer, but no cigar. Everlasting punishment is NOT the same as eternal torment. Your first death is not everlasting because God will resurrect you. However, if you have to face the SECOND DEATH, it IS everlasting…you will never be resurrected back to life again…you are ETERNALLY dead. That is the everlasting punishment…eternal separation from God!
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.. Jude 7
Do you think Sodom and Gomorrha are still burning today? It seems that “the vengeance of eternal fire” is just a figure of speech.
I didn't see anyone post the most dramatic and compelling verses that seem to point to the eternal torment of sinners so I will post them for you:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.“Where their worm dieth not” is often used to suggest that sinners will suffer eternal torment in the unquenchable fire. But let's look carefully at these verses. Don't you notice that their does not refer to the listener (thee)? Who does it refer to? Why, it refers to them whom hell was created for in the first place: Satan and his devils!
If there are more questions, I would love to address them. May God guide us into all truth. Praise God and God bless all.
Hi bic,
The unquenchable fire is just the promised destruction of earth and her inhabitants as in 2 Peter 3.10 and has nothing to do with Gehenna or the lake of fire in my view.I read Adam's post and pretty much agree with most all that he said. Did you not notice that you point out the destruction of the earth as recorded in Peter and yet Adam said that the earth would NEVER be destroyed? You then call his post excellent…I couldn't help but smile.
BTW, I think Gehenna and/or the lake of fire have EVERYTHING to do with the destruction of the earth, although fire will be raining down from heaven also.
Hi bic,
Again the lack is in our understanding in my view.What is complete destruction?
Does it have to be anhillation and total obliteration to satisfy us that the earth is destroyed?
Does the earth have to disappear ?
Quote (bic @ Feb. 23 2005,01:01) I read Adam's post and pretty much agree with most all that he said. Did you not notice that you point out the destruction of the earth as recorded in Peter and yet Adam said that the earth would NEVER be destroyed? You then call his post excellent…I couldn't help but smile. BTW, I think Gehenna and/or the lake of fire have EVERYTHING to do with the destruction of the earth, although fire will be raining down from heaven also.
Hi BIC:I agree that the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven to earth.
Question to you and/or Adam Pastor is, the bible does clearly say that there shall be a new heaven and a new earth. Doesn't that mean the old passes away?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
_Nick: In Matthew 24, Jesus says that if He didn't return when He does, no flesh would be spared. It's pretty obvious that the earth will almost be uninhabitable (i.e., destroyed) even before Jesus returns. When He returns, it will only get worse (before it gets better). It will definitely need to be rennovated, refurbished, renewed, restored, etc. from the wastelands that it will have become.
Cubes: Read my post at the top of this page concerning “Cast into outer darkness” and “a new heavens and earth”. If God effects these changes along these lines, it will indeed be a “new heavens and a new earth”.
I envision Satan et al being cast into a lake of fire (a lava pool or lake near Jerusalem resulting from the separation of the two plates there), it being sealed up (the plates closing together again) and the earth then being hurled out of its orbit. There are some very, very long stretches of space without any hint of stars (and I suspect that Satan will be given the longest stretch possible). I would not wish to share his lot nor would I wish it upon the most despicable person I could think of. What a way to spend 'eternity'!
In short, the old earth will have become Satan's prison. The new earth, a joy for mankind.
Hi bic,
Yes I agree a total revamp will be required.Satan has become the prince of this world and the Son of God has come to reestablish his own kingdom on earth. To discard the old is to admit defeat by Satan. That is not possible so the battered old Earth will be given back to it's rightful owner and completely restored. The Earth is the Earth and it is not called the Earth for any reason except that is what it is called . So the new Earth cannot be Venus or Mars, that would not be Earth-I believe the name is eternal and does not tranfer to any other existing named planet.
What do others think?.
Doesn't it say somewhere that God will destroy the universe and the earth with fire and a new Heavens and earth created where sin has never dwelt.
Also if God does destroy this creation and creates a new one, then does that include the Lake of Fire?
Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire. The question is what happens to the Lake of Fire?
Hi t8,
Rev 20.10” And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone ,where the beast and the false prophet ARE also;and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”
v14
” Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
Rev 21.8″ But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable
and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars ,their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death”
Rev 22.15
” Outside ARE the dogs and sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murders and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying”
Two of those scriptures suggest ongoing retribution rather than just instant destruction as the second death.I understand in Ethiopia or somewhere near there are such pools or lakes of burning sulphur? relevant?
Lk 10.20″ Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven”… in the book of life.
Hi cubes,
KJV is not good with “Hell”and often it should read “Hades”When Jesus said to Peter in Mt 16.18
” I also say to you that you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church;and the gates of HADES will not overpower it”
Hades is the place of waiting for the lost Jews and is shown in Luke 16. It has no power over those born into Christ so their destiny is not there and so it does not overpower the church. It has nothing to do with the realm of Satan.
Hades has no use after judgement so goes into the lake of fire.
Nick, you could be right and the devastated earth could be restored. However, Uranium-238 has a half-life of approxiamtely 4.5 BILLION years, which means it would lose only half its mass in that given time. If nuclear fallout is as widespread as one might imagine, the earth could be uninhabitable for quite some time. Of course, God's hand is not short and He could clean the Earth in an accelerated fashion, so who knows. Still, I can't explain the being “cast into outer darkness” without the scenario I suggested. Perhaps someone has a different idea that makes even more sense than mine. Regardless of the what, when, and how, I pray that I am found worthy to be part of the chosen who.
t8: I've never read that about “where sin has never dwelt”. Can that possibly come from the Apocrypha?
Nick said:
Quote Two of those scriptures suggest ongoing retribution rather than just instant destruction as the second death. I don't see that…can you explain what you mean? Also, what version of scripture are you quoting? The KJV says this:
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.There is no “they” shall be tormented. It could be inferred that the beast and false prophet are also tormented for ever and ever because of the tense of the word “are”, but this would suggest that they received more punishment that the devil (because they were already in the lake before he was cast into it. The strictest interpretation would have ONLY the devil being tormented for ever and the two others already burnt up and perished.
Regardless, it is a separate event when those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake and they clearly take part in the Second Death. There is no mention of eternal torment for them.
Revelation 21:8 merely repeats this fact, except it reveals the characteristics of those whose names are not written in the Book of Life (being judged according to their works).
Revelation 22:15 is speaking about those ungodly people living on Earth during the millenial reign. New Jerusalem shall be established atop the hills and the nations (of them which are saved-Rev:21:24) shall come bearing gifts and praising God and shall be allowed to enter therein and partake of all the blessings within: the tree of life (with its fruit of the month club and its healing leaves) and the water of life, etc. The ungodly will not be allowed to enter therein.
It's interesting to note that there is NO temple within but there IS a throne room. Also, no darkness ever and no closed doors (indicating there is nothing to fear).
Can you see the distinction between the devil's punishment and wicked men? The eternal devil receives eternal punishment but perishable humans perish. Why would it be any other way?
Quote (bic @ Feb. 25 2005,06:11) Nick, you could be right and the devastated earth could be restored. However, Uranium-238 has a half-life of approxiamtely 4.5 BILLION years, which means it would lose only half its mass in that given time. If nuclear fallout is as widespread as one might imagine, the earth could be uninhabitable for quite some time. Of course, God's hand is not short and He could clean the Earth in an accelerated fashion, so who knows. Still, I can't explain the being “cast into outer darkness” without the scenario I suggested. Perhaps someone has a different idea that makes even more sense than mine. Regardless of the what, when, and how, I pray that I am found worthy to be part of the chosen who. t8: I've never read that about “where sin has never dwelt”. Can that possibly come from the Apocrypha?
Hi bic,
I have never seen the role of man's activity playing too much part in Revelation. So nuclear explosions do not feature for me. I also am unsure if asteroids are part of the plan either.By the way I use NASB almost wholly now.
The lake of fire or second death-well it just does not seem ever to say either that it is instant destruction for anyone and it does say there is eternal punishment for some. I still think we can find more about this.
All the descriptions of the unsaved and their fate are after the judgement whicjh is after the millenial reign so I would have thought Rev 21 8 was equivalent to Rev 22.15.
Would you agree that there will be mortal human beings STILL living on the earth during the millenial reign? If not, who will Jesus and the elect be REIGNING over? What nations will go up unto the house of the Lord and learn of His ways? Who will be the 'dogs' outside (liars and thieves, etc.)? Who will Satan gather up (after his release) to march to battle against New Jerusalem?
Those in Rev:21:8 and Rev:22:15 are NOT the same.
The lake of fire, in fact, is alluded to in many verses. See Matthew 3:10,12; 7:19; 13:40-42,50; 18:8,9; 25:41,46; Mark 9:43-49; John 15:6. Also, see Malachi 4:1.
Of course, the fate of sinners (destruction) is mentioned in so many places it would be impractical to list here. Just do a search on the words destroy, destruction, death, and perish (for starters) and see what comes up. There are so many references to the destruction of the wicked that it is inconceivable how this eternal torment of sinners doctrine (superstition) came about. Indeed, it probably took the removal of scripture from mankind (as was the case during the Dark Ages) to impregnate the collective psyche of the human race with such foolishness. People couldn't read scripture (an action punishable by death) but they could read such fiction as the Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri. Calling the word of God a joke was never that funny to me. Mankind has YET to recover his sight…but we're working on it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2005,00:16) Hi cubes,
KJV is not good with “Hell”and often it should read “Hades”When Jesus said to Peter in Mt 16.18
” I also say to you that you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church;and the gates of HADES will not overpower it”
Hades is the place of waiting for the lost Jews and is shown in Luke 16. It has no power over those born into Christ so their destiny is not there and so it does not overpower the church. It has nothing to do with the realm of Satan.
Hades has no use after judgement so goes into the lake of fire.
I can't wait, Nick!Maranatha! The Bride and the Spirit say come, Lord Jesus!
Hi bic,
Yes some natural people must survive into the millenium. In fact scripture says that all nations shall be under the King so some must survive in all nations. Reading scripture on these matters does not show how much destruction is localised to certain areas.Those scriptures about the fire were good.
None specifically mention they refer to the lake of fire though.
Some may relate to the fires on earth when the earth is burnt in it's final woes.
Many specify that the fire is eternal or unquenchable.
One speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth and that does not suggest instant obliteration.[mt 13]The jury is still out for me and I will keep looking.
Matt 25.26 Says punishment is eternal agreeing with 2Thess 1 9
Hi bic,
Why do you state the two verses about sinners are not the same in the end of Revn? Five of the groups mentioned are exactly the same-Murderers, Immoral persons, sorcerers, idolaters and liars.The only differences between Rev21.8 and Rev22.15
are
Rev 21 saysCowardly
Unbelieving
AbominableWhere Rev 22 says
Dogs.
As with all scripture some adds detail and is more specific than others so I find it hard to understand your position here.?
Quote One speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth and that does not suggest instant obliteration.[mt 13] If you could spend a night on death row you would understand the anguish that is felt while one awaits their death sentence to be carried out. There is no reason to think that the wailing and gnashing of teeth happens AFTER they are cast into the fire. Logic and reasoning (and believing God to be just) dictates that one believes this anguish is felt while they await their just and righteous judgment.
Let me ask you a question. How would you feel about OUR justice system if we tortured our criminals for as long as humanly possible instead of giving them the death sentence? Would that be acceptable to you? It never ceases to amaze me that people who cry out against governments abusing prisoners have no qualms about the government of God torturing someone (for lesser crimes) for eternity. There's something wrong with that picture (but I don't see you in it).
What? Is God going to blot our all our earthly memories so that we don't recognize our loved ones which don't make it or are we supposed to enjoy ourselves in heaven while we watch, listen, or just think about our best friend or family member scream in torment. What a wonderful heaven that would be!
2Thess 1:9 says “everlasting DESTRUCTION” which agrees with all of scripture. Matthew 25:46 says “everlasting punishment”, which also agrees with all of scripture when you can understand it properly. The PUNISHMENT (death) is EVERLASTING; it is NOT an everlasting PUNISHING (as in torture).
My heart is glad that you “will keep looking” – that's a very good sign!
Quote Why do you state the two verses about sinners are not the same in the end of Revn? CONTEXT. Rev:21:8 is speaking in context of the judgment – the separation of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares, good and evil. It is about reaping what one has sown; it is about reward (eternal life) and punishment (eternal death); it is about judgment according to works.
Rev:22:15 is talking about New Jerusalem (the holy mountain of God and Zion) and is naming the SAME group of people (with the same damning characteristics) that will not be allowed to enter therein. I was not trying to insinuate that these (people) were different. My point was that the setting is different. The first group of sinners mentioned is facing imminent judgment (death). The second group of sinners is wandering the earth during the millenial reign and are NOT going up to the mountain of the Lord and learning His ways. The same fate awaits them (unless they repent) sometime in the future.
You had said, “All the descriptions of the unsaved and their fate are after the judgement which is after the millenial reign…” and I was merely answering to this. Sorry if I confused you on this point.
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