Hell

[Proclaimer]

I totally agree.

The truth is what matters and anything else is either the word of man or a doctrine of demons.

If the bible repeatedly talks about 'destruction' of the wicked and repeatedly uses the word 'perish', then who are we to argue with that.

I know that the Roman Catholic Church used the doctrine of being tortured forever as a fear mechanism to keep people loyal to that organization. This is a terrible sin in my opinion.

I know a person, infact he was my brother (he died a few years ago) who went crazy thinking about people burning in hell forever. (He was a young christian and he just accepted many teachings that the denominations taught). He couldn't understand why God would do such a thing. Perhaps he was more caring than most to even consider their suffering, but in the end, my brother fell away from God as he just couldn't accept that a loving God could be so mean. Now I just wonder how many others reject God based on that doctrine. I personally don't think that this doctrine has any benefit in bringing people to God.

It should be love that motivates people to God and the fear of being cut away and destroyed from the God, who is Love that encourages us not to fall away or sin.

We know that hell is a place of suffering, due to being cut of from God who is the source of all good. But we also know from scripture that hell is not forever.

MATT 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

REV 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Another thing:
This subject is actually very important as it is one of the elementary doctrines of faith.

HEB 6:1-2
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

[gl]

Regarding the use of fear to bring people to Christ, I think it can be legitmately used, but together with God's love.
In numerous places in scripture God lays out the blessing as a result of obedience and the cursing as a result of disobedience. I would equate the cursing with fear motivation.
The first words recorded that Jesus said when he began his ministry was 'Matthew 3:2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”' Jesus wanted people to repent because of the consequence of not doing so which was separation from God or Hell if you like.
A person must first realise that because of their sin and the consequence of there sin they are in trouble(fear motivation) before they can appreciate that Christ took there place(love of God).
Suppose someone is in a boat going down a stream for a leisurely outing. There is a water falls comming up which they are unaware of, but you have knowledge of. Will you be on the bank explaining that they should get out of the boat so you can show them how much God love's them. No you will be shouting 'Get out of the boat a falls is up ahead, you're going to die!!'(fear motivation). When they are safe on land you can explain God's love was demonstarted, in that he warned them, and all of the other benefits of following Christ.
Anyway, that my take on this.

gl

[Proclaimer]

I agree that love and fear work in tandem as you say.

Love gives us hope and fear warns us not to get in trouble. If the revelation of the consequences of sin stops a person from making mistakes, then fear has worked as it is suppose to.

But I think that fear (like anything else) can also be abused. Like using it to make people loyal to your organisation e.g. the fear of man.

The scriptures say, “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”. This is righteous and true fear.

Love attracts and fear repels. Love should attract us to God and fear should repel us from judgement and hell. Both have the same goal and both are important and they work together perfectly when delivering the message to a sinful race.

Love without judgement won't encourage us to stop sinning and judgement without love equals no hope.

But we must also remember that if we have not love and we do amazing things for God, including preaching the gospel, then it is in vain. Love is the greatest and God is love. As the scripture says:

1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak in the tongues[1] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[2] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails…

[Underground2012]

Hello everyone, I found this forum by searching for the book of Enoch, and have been impressed by the caliber of posts and the avoidance of the common tendency to resort to character attacks. I think I have found another home.

With regard to Hell, I have seen that there have been posts that have addressed the fact that there are multiple words to describe it, and one really cannot understand the concept without owning a Strong's dictionary, or at least having an online reference such as blueletterbible.org among others to rightly divide the word of God.

At my church homepage you will find 300+ papers dealing with almost every subject you could fathom with regards to the one true faith of the One True God. Prove any of them wrong and I'll give you a lollypop!:smile:

It is true that there are at least three concepts, described in multiple languages that Trinitarian power seekers have purposely translated “Hell” in order to control the minds of many generations. The truth is far from this single concept of Hell, as was necessary to scare people into all kinds of other perversions of the truth.

The three concepts that are represented by a KJV bible with the translated word “Hell” are:

1. Sheol (Death or the grave)
2. Ghenna (hellfire, lake of fire)
3. Tartaroo (angelic prision)

There are entire websites dedicated to just these concepts and what they represent, and they are fairly easy to find such as: http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

For the time being, let us suffice the matter to say that in summary, God is NOT the God of eternal everlasting punishment, i.e. the little old granny who lived a wonderful life but stole a candy bar when she was 12 has to rot in hell for eternity because of that sin…etc.

1. Death. The bible says it is appointed once for man to die then the judgment. All who die basically lay in the dust until one of the two resurrections. There is no “hell” for them, no purgatory. This is scripture. The only two recorded are Enoch and Elijah who were taken, and it is possible that God transported them through time until Revelation 11 where they will appear as the two witnesses in Jerusalem. The other exceptions to death are the elect who are alive at the second advent of Christ sometime before 2027 who will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. They will not experience death either. For all those who are resurrected in the second resurrected, and have an additional life of most likely 100 years, who do not repent THEN, will not be written in the book of life, will be allowed to die, and then their bodies will be cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, and final. You are simply blotted out.

2. The next concept is Ghenna, which is also the valley of Hinnom in the OT. This is where the pagans sacrificed their children to the god Molech and burnt them in the fire, and where every Asherah pole, idol, altar, and killed sinner was taken in the OT to be burnt by the brook Kidron. In Jesus' day it had become the town dump or Jerusalem, where all garbage, dead bodies, and feces were put and burnt. It had a horrible smell, contained maggots (the worm that did not die) the vultures (where the corpse is there the eagles will gather) and had unquenchable fire as a city the size of Jerusalem would produce much of the three objects I list above. The fire burned day and night like a big incinerator. Jesus preached this concept, immediately recognizable to all people as a spiritual concept of what will happen to you once you exhaust God's options at the end of the second resurrection and judgment. If you stand there at the judgment seat of Christ and the elect, and thumb your nose at the system, you will be judged, allowed to die, and cast into the furnace of ghenna. In revelation this is a lake of fire, but the greek words actually are better translated “divine crisis” or “decision” as we understand the word crisis. You will be asked to decide once and for all, and if God cannot reform you in His lake of fire because of your rebellious spirit, then the fire itself will consume you utterly, and wipe your memory from the face of the earth, the second death. Our God is a consuming fire, not an everlasting torturing fire…..

3. The third concept is Tartaroo, which is the angelic prision. The legion of demons begged Jesus not to send them into the “pit” instead into a herd of swine, and revelation says that Satan will be bound and cast into the pit for 1000 years before the judgment, but will be loosed for a short while. This is some interdemensional plane, such as death or Sheol above, where the angels probably can do nothing, nor do they know anything. They are placed in suspended animation as it were. We know from Einsteins theory of relativity, that Energy=Mass X Speed of light squared. God is way above this crude physical representation of what energy is, and he could remove any element He pleased for an example of reducing them to temporary nothingness, able to be reconstituted at the very word of God. Just look at black holes…dark matter…etc.

Just remember, God is not willing that any should perish (notice it does not say eternally burn in torment) but that all should have life in His son.

Even though the scripture is pointing to a moment in the future where Satan does not repent and is cast into the lake of fire along with death and hades, etc. to be incinerated, it does not mean that it has come to pass as of yet, and Satan still has a chance to repent and be saved when he is converted into flesh and all the nations look upon him and remark “is this the man who made the nations tremble??”

[global]

Underground 2012 said –

"The other exceptions to death are the elect who are alive at the second advent of Christ sometime before 2027"

I would like to know what special information you have which allows you to make this statement since Jesus specifically says in the Bible that no-one knows when he will come again, not even himself.

Be Well.

[Proclaimer]

I agree that it is dangerous to put dates on things.
It says that we do not know the day nor the hour, but we will know the season, By quoting a year, we put the faith into disrepute, especially when such predictions do not come to pass. Even if it did come to pass, it still doesn’t prove revelation.

e.g. If Jesus was going to come back in the year 2050, then statistically there would be some who guessed that to be the year from their own understanding.

[thehappyman]

Hi everyone:
On this subject of eternal punishment I would like to say that this is a subject that I have been stired in my spirit. I have read all the suggested sites and notes and wow, these are good points of view. But I looked into creation and found that God created everything that is known to man and everything that man is not knowledgeable of. In Genisis it doesn't say Hell was created but in duet.32:22 speaks of divers of Hell. Interesting enough there is not just one Hell but more than one. Hm, Why? for what purpose? In Rev20:8 says “and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone , where the false phohets are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. In Rev. 22 :19 say that if any man shall take away the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Danger signs are up when we asume God is not serious in all that He said. Who are we to think we have the mind of God , scriptures state. It is not the physical body that is tormented, it's the spirit. Soul. Scripture states that what is carnal is carnal and what is spirit is spirit. Yes , we can walk on the ashes of mans flesh, but not his spirit. Lev.26:3 In the flesh God rewards the faithful in giving His all for our sake. Water , food , safety and shelter. In Matt. 20:1-15 tells us about divers amounts of rewards for the good. 1cor.3:8 your reward is according to your labor. Now in Rev20:13. judgement is given to the wicked , in Hell , all shall be judged accordingly to their labors. Hm . And the final resut is eternal damnation, for ever and ever.
If you kill some body willfully you will spend your carnal life in jail. Your eternal damnation in the flesh, you can't get out , no hope for excape, and no pardons. hmmmm.
Thank you all for the help in understanding eternal judgement. I rather not sin and avoid Hell, because their is no hope in Hell.
The Happyman

[Proclaimer]

I wrote this quite a while ago and I think this writing is what sparked this discussion in the first place.
<a href="https://heavennet.net/answers/answer26.htm

If” target=”_blank”>https://heavennet.net/answers/answer26.htm

If there is anything that anyone disagrees with, let me know. My only motivation is to know the truth on this subject.

[Anonymous]

Quote (sunnyb @ Sep. 02 2002,20:02)

in I John 1:5, the bible says that “God is light and in him is no darkness at all”. I cannot figure out how then we can attribute a place of suffering for anything other than the spirits under lucifers control and people's spirits born of lucifers seed. We are basically come in this life to make a descison as to wether we would like to be with God for eternity or not. If we did descide aginst it then shouldnt we just not exist? (gravedom….a word that comes from the greek words for Hell) if God were to punish us for eternity for not wanting to be with him wouldnt that be fear motivation? isnt fear not light? then that cant possibly be God….That would be like asking if you would like to play pool and if you did not then I would break your legs…wouldnt you call that fear motivation? I believe (speaking from experience) that if you study the words for Hell (hades , geena , and shehole ) (strongs #'s in brackets) that you will conclude that what most get is gravedom…non existance. seed of the serpant and the spirits of lucifer get suffering and the lake of fire. I would be interested to hear what you have to say in response…I have looked at alot of the content of this website and am impressed with the large content of hard work in the area of rightly dividing the Word of God. (II tim 2:15) either way this site has blessed me and in return I hope that i am not wasting anyone's time. God bless and happy studying!

why is everything god wants us to know and do so difficult to understand ?? surely him knowing and creating man as he has , he must know we are thick by his standards, simply saying you should have faith without proof is like sending money to a mail order ad promising riches !! the book of enoch is excluded from the bible … why. as is the book of thomas…why?? should we therefor believe the rest without question, or should we discount these two, i am so confused yet all i want to do is live a happy and peaceful existence, why is it so hard to do that here on earth in crime. depravation and corruption ?? if there is something better for us why cant we have that now , why do we have to suffer and what guarantee is there, even Jesus doubted his faith on the cross , why cant we!! God should make it easier for us, if this is some sort of test … there should be a clear end result. he says he loves us yet makes things so hard to understand, even for those who just want to believe

[itsme]

In Ecclesiastes 7:16 it says
“Do not be overly righteous, nor be overly wise: why should you destroy yourself?”
then in verse 17, it says
“Do not be overly wicked”,
Theres the overly in there, it doesn't say don't be wicked at all, leading me to believe that not ALL wicked would go to hell. I mean, what do you think that verse means?

[thehappyman]

In Ecclesiastes 7:16 it says
“Do not be overly righteous, nor be overly wise: why should you destroy yourself?”
then in verse 17, it says
“Do not be overly wicked”,
Theres the overly in there, it doesn't say don't be wicked at all, leading me to believe that not ALL wicked would go to hell. I mean, what do you think that verse means?

Hi : ………I believe that this verse must be in the light of Prov.3:7. ” Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord , and depart from evil.” Those who depend on our own good deeds for salvation and those who imagine themselves to be wise will only destroy themselves. We need true righteousness from God to regenerate our hearts and true wisdom from the Holy Spirit to understand God's Word

[Proclaimer]

I think the writer says many things as he is thinking out loud. But he concludes that all is vanity in the end, except serving God. I am going by memory here, so you will need to check that out. If I get time I will read it and post the scripture.

thx

[Proclaimer]

Here is a verse that supports the destruction of the wicked, (after Hell that is).

Mark 8:36
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?

Some translations say 'life' instead of soul. But either way, destruction of the soul is destruction of ones life and to forfeit something is to lose it.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Many people would like to have a designer God who fits all our definitions of niceness. But He is the God who destroyed a whole generation in a flood apart from Noah's family. He anhillated Sodom and Gomorrah and instructed his Israelites to kill every man ,woman and child in the OT descriptions of the taking of the promised land. That is part of the character of our God and we must listen earnestly to the words of His Son to avoid His wrath.
He is also full of Mercy and Love and has an incredible love for Jesus. That is why the opportunity being born again into the Son is such a precious gift to be grasped as soon as we can.
The word Hell is used poorly in some translations. The hell that gives up it's dead and is then cast into the pool of fire is Hades.That is the same word used in the description of the state of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk 16 .9. It is a place of waiting for judgement and the people appear to be already divide into 2 groups, one suffering in flames and one not, who can see one another. That agrees with the description of such places in Enoch.That place disappears at judgement as there will be no more waiting places needed.
The other word Geena or Gehenna is the place of final punishment-the one Jesus warned it was better to lose your eyes and hands than enter. It is the pool of burning sulphur-the second death- that all who are not saved or given mercy in the sheep and goat judgement suffer eternally.
Most of us learn not to take risks with our body on this earth but are prepared to risk eternity . Why?

[NickHassan]

Hi, We know that the smoke from the destruction of the Whore of Babylon rises up forever and ever. And the devil ,the False prophet and the Beast [and those not found in the Book of Life]are tormented Day and night forever and everin the lake of fire .
So if this world passes away this place cannot be on earth surely
Any ideas??

[Proclaimer]

Isaiah 34:9-10
9 Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

Could refer to the memory or consequence of something.
Smoke is a consequence of fire.

Even after the fire has gone out the smoke can still rise.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
What I am getting at is whether or not when God talks about a “new earth” does that mean new or possibly renovated? Does anyone know the true meaning of the word.
In 2 Peter 3.6 it says
” By water that world was then destroyed:it was overwhelmed by the deluge. The present heavens and earth are reserved by God's word for fire”
10 ” ..The elements will be destroyed by fire,”
But the earth remained after it's destruction by water.

In Revelation it says the earth will be brought to ruin by earthquake and burnt up by fire . In Rev 20 and 21 the old earth “Passed away” or “Fled away” but it does not say it was even destroyed as far as I can find.
The word “earth” is specific to our planet I would have thought. The only difference seen in the new earth is that there is no sea and now God has His dwelling place among men.In other ways it seems similar?
I do not know if this theory holds water but it would explain the other scriptures about things happening on earth that are eternal.

[NickHassan]

ps. You and I are “new creations” but we look the same as before?

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2004,23:27)

Hi t8, What I am getting at is whether or not when God talks about a “new earth” does that mean new or possibly renovated? Does anyone know the true meaning of the word.

This planet will never be destroyed. It will indeed be renovated.

This planet was created for mankind.
(Psa 115:16)  The heaven, even the heavens, are YAHWEH's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Hence the Bible nowhere speaks of mankind going to heaven

The Gospel of the Kingdom of GOD [Mt 24.14] is all about the restoration/renovation of the planet which will be ruled by immortalized saints (with Christ); this rule will commence at the Coming of Christ.

Therefore, (Mat 5:5)  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (See Psa Ch. 37)

Hence Peter declared (Acts 3:20-21)  And he [GOD] shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive [retain] until the times of restitution [restoration/renovation] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

All things includes this planet.
The prophets spoke about the renovation of this planet e.g. Isa Chs 2, 65, etc.

Also, (Mat 19:28)  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration [restoration, renovation of this planet] when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And the list goes on …
Hopes this helps

[NickHassan]

Very helpful thank you Adam Pastor, welcome back.The next question is about the new heaven. When it says that God will dwell among men in rev 21.3 is this in the same way as He dwelt with the Israelites in the desert or different? Was not the Holy of holies or tabernacle known as the Dwelling?
There will be a new heaven we know. But the Throne of God and the trees of life will be in the new Jerusalem on earth according to Rev 22. Why would heaven still exist? I suppose it will still be the abode of angels, I would assume, as they do not seem to be mentioned in the new earth?who knows?

[Author]

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