Hebrews

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2007,17:07)

Quote (david @ Nov. 16 2007,07:51)

“O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad.” (Psalm 97:10)

It seems to matter to God.

Regarding acts of homosexuality, God’s Word pointedly says: “This is a hateful thing.” (Leviticus 18:22, The New Jerusalem Bible)

God’s Law to Israel stipulated: “When a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail.” (Leviticus 20:13)

Yes the Peculiar One does particularly seem very keen on persecuting (or ordering the death) of individuals of his own creation.

Stuart

PS: In case anyone is thinking of responding with “free will”, I ask you to stop and consider the huge variety of behaviours exhibited by different animals species and then tell me it is not your genes that have a major part in what you “choose” to do!

Hi Stu:

Are you not responsible for your own actions? One may be tempted to do this or that, but it does not mean that a person has to obey the temptation.

A certain body cavity has a certain different function than that of sex.

And even if a person is overcome in the temptation of homosexuality or beastiality or adultery or whatever the temptation to sin, he or she can be delivered if they want to be delivered from this obsession by God through the body of Christ.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

November 18, 2007 at 3:01 am#72153

Participant

Hi:

On Sodom and Gommorah:

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Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange F2 flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

November 18, 2007 at 5:18 am#72161

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,13:34)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 14 2007,22:45)

942767 Do you know that Tow does not believe in Jesus? What does scripture tell us about that? Does it not say that whoever does not belief that Jesus came in the flesh is Anti-Christ. So why would you want to have a conversation with Him? He is here to give us a hard time, and according to Mandy some have been hurt by it. So please in the name of God(Jesus) stop answering Him, Please, for our Brothers in Sisters in Christ.

Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi Mrs:

I answer Towshab and Stu hoping that they will see that Jesus is the Messiah and they will see what God has done for them in the person of Jesus and that they will be reconciled to God through him and be saved from the consequence of sin.

I was an unbeliever at one time myself and I believe that the scriptures state that all of humanity has been in unbelief at one time.

There is nothing that anyone can say to me that can sway me away from the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. God through His Spirit living in me testifies to that fact. Also, through my various personal experiences since my conversion experience leaves no way that any one can talk me out of what I know to be the truth.

Also, Towshab gives reasons why Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I want to know those reasons because I know that they are not valid. When I talk to Tow, it helps me to study and learn. I want to be able to show all of humanity, including Jews that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.

I do wonder if every one that professes to be a Christian on the forum has received the Holy Ghost. They say that they believe, but by the Holy Ghost, I not only believe but I know for certainty that God is a reality and Jesus is His Son and His Christ and my Lord.

If you do not wish to anwer Towshab or Stu, that is your pre-rogative, but I intend to keep answering his questions hoping that he will convinced of the truth.

I do appreciate your concern.

God Bless

How do you know the reasons are not valid? I've yet to see a single person on here show me how Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies. That is proof enough against him as Moshiach.

November 18, 2007 at 5:27 am#72162

Participant

Hi 942…

Stu: In case anyone is thinking of responding with “free will”, I ask you to stop and consider the huge variety of behaviours exhibited by different animals species and then tell me it is not your genes that have a major part in what you “choose” to do!

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Are you not responsible for your own actions? One may be tempted to do this or that, but it does not mean that a person has to obey the temptation.

Why should gay people not do what comes naturally to them? I am happy for you not to be compelled to engage in homosexual acts, and I would certainly not enjoy that either, but you’re saying gay people shouldn’t do it. What reason, other than the dictatorial “they have done a detestable thing” or the hellfire and brimstone nonsense, do you have? You don’t seem interested in engaging the main point, which is the seeming joy your Nasty Friend in the sky gets from condemning those members of his creation to whom he has given a homosexual orientation. Those who don’t are pretty much free to get on with it, those who do are condemned to death.

The trend around the western world in the past 30 years has been to decriminalise homosexual sexual acts. Of course in theocracies they still persecute gays. Would you like western counties to have laws like they do in Iran?

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A certain body cavity has a certain different function than that of sex.

Just as the rectum is a component of the large colon, the penis forms part of the urinary excretory system, and so it too has a different function. How do you know that the rectum was not intended for the use to which gay men sometimes put it, as a further temptation by the One who breaks his own command about tempting not the temptable?

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I think you should have rephrased that a bit!

What does bestiality have to do with it? That is animal abuse. What about adultery? We are not talking about abusing animals or being unfaithful here. We are talking about what a loving gay couple do in private. If you call that wrong, no matter why, then I call you callous.

You have ambitions to be some kind of leader in a church, a social organisation, and therefore you put yourself forwards as a person to be trusted. What will you say to the first young man for whom you are the only person he can turn to to come out as gay? Will you tell him that you accept him but his acts are an abomination, and he will burn in hell? What use are you to him then? Is it any surprise that a huge proportion of the suicide statistics comprise gay people? Is that not a greater wrong?

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Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

…and praise his causing of needless suffering in the gay people he evidently created for his playthings.

Stuart

November 18, 2007 at 5:43 am#72163

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,19:16)

Hi Towshab:

You say:

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3 problems with that: (1) blood sacrifice was for unintentional sins.

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Lev 4:2 [ESV] “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the LORD's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,
Lev 4:3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the LORD.

First, verse 4:3 which you quote states:

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4:3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the LORD.[/

And so, this instruction is has to do with the Priest sinning and thereby causing the people to sin. If the people sinned they were to bring a female goat or a female lamb the way that I read:

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כז וְאִם-נֶפֶשׁ אַחַת תֶּחֱטָא בִשְׁגָגָה, מֵעַם הָאָרֶץ: בַּעֲשֹׂתָהּ אַחַת מִמִּצְו‍ֹת יְהוָה, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-תֵעָשֶׂינָה–וְאָשֵׁם. 27 And if any one of the common people sin through error, in doing any of the things which the LORD hath commanded not to be done, and be guilty:
כח אוֹ הוֹדַע אֵלָיו, חַטָּאתוֹ אֲשֶׁר חָטָא–וְהֵבִיא קָרְבָּנוֹ שְׂעִירַת עִזִּים, תְּמִימָה נְקֵבָה, עַל-חַטָּאתוֹ, אֲשֶׁר חָטָא. 28 if his sin, which he hath sinned, be known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
כט וְסָמַךְ, אֶת-יָדוֹ, עַל, רֹאשׁ הַחַטָּאת; וְשָׁחַט, אֶת-הַחַטָּאת, בִּמְקוֹם, הָעֹלָה. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin-offering, and kill the sin-offering in the place of burnt-offering.
ל וְלָקַח הַכֹּהֵן מִדָּמָהּ, בְּאֶצְבָּעוֹ, וְנָתַן, עַל-קַרְנֹת מִזְבַּח הָעֹלָה; וְאֶת-כָּל-דָּמָהּ יִשְׁפֹּךְ, אֶל-יְסוֹד הַמִּזְבֵּחַ. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt-offering, and all the remaining blood thereof shall he pour out at the base of the altar.
לא וְאֶת-כָּל-חֶלְבָּהּ יָסִיר, כַּאֲשֶׁר הוּסַר חֵלֶב מֵעַל זֶבַח הַשְּׁלָמִים, וְהִקְטִיר הַכֹּהֵן הַמִּזְבֵּחָה, לְרֵיחַ נִיחֹחַ לַיהוָה; וְכִפֶּר עָלָיו הַכֹּהֵן, וְנִסְלַח לוֹ. {פ} 31 And all the fat thereof shall he take away, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace-offerings; and the priest shall make it smoke upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven. {P}
לב וְאִם-כֶּבֶשׂ יָבִיא קָרְבָּנוֹ, לְחַטָּאת–נְקֵבָה תְמִימָה, יְבִיאֶנָּה. 32 And if he bring a lamb as his offering for a sin-offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

But all of this was instruction to the Levitical Priesthood which is no longer in effect. Are you presently offering animal sacrifce when you sin unintentionally? When your temple is rebuilt, are you going to start doing this? Is every one then going to have to own a herd of cattle, goats, or sheep in order to comply with this?

I personally never have. I was merely showing that blood sacrifice is for unintentional sins. If Jesus' blood is for your sins it will only cover the unintentional ones.

Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.

What about your other sins? And Jesus was not offered by a levitical priest, his blood was not sprinkled on an altar, he was not burned afterwards, and he had scabs, broken bones from the spikes, and therefore was unacceptable for a sacrifice.

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What does God accept from you for wilfull sins?

What does he accept from you?

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If this was to be what God wanted, why was the temple destroyed? And why would there be a necessity for a new covenant with the House of Israel?

Why was it not destroyed the very day Jesus died? Why was only the temple veil torn in two and not the whole temple destroyed? Why was there a gap of 40 years?

The only difference in the new covenant is that it will it will be written on hearts and all will know G-d.

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31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Verse 34 is your key. If EVERY man will know G-d it is quite obvious that the new covenant has come isn't it? And why didn't you start with verse 30?

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

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You say:

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(3) Jesus does not qualify for a sin offering because he was not offered properly according to G-d's own commands

[a] He was not an animal although he was called the 'lamb'. G-d detests human sacrifice.
He was not offered by a priest of the line of Aaron (Levite) but was killed by Gentiles
[c] His blood was not sprinkled on an altar in the prescribed place which would have been the temple in Jerusalem at that time
[d] He was not cut up and burned after death as prescribed
[e] Since Jesus was whipped and beaten before he died he did not qualify as a proper offering

Lev 22:22 [ESV] Animals blind or disabled or mutilated or having a discharge or an itch or scabs you shall not offer to the LORD or give them to the LORD as a food offering on the altar.

Jesus offered himself up wilfully in obedience to God. And He is at the right hand of God in heaven, and so if God has accepted him and he has, I don't believe that it is wise to argue that He does not qualify.

Why can I not argue when G-d Himself established the sacrificial system? Jesus in no shape or form complied with the sacrificial system established by G-d. If G-d want people to believe Jesus was really the sacrifice for them why would He go against His own established rituals?

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Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion F7 as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

What does this have to do with him being the proper sacrifice?

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God hates human sacrifice when you offer up your children to strange Gods, but if your child or mine offers himself up to God in obedience to God in the above manner, will he not accept this sacrifice.

You mean you're willing to hang one of your children on a cross to sacrifice to G-d? I know Christianity has some strange ideas but you need to check yourself if you're willing to go this far.

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Romans 12

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

This is what God hates:

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Jer 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

So G-d hates human sacrifice to other gods but He wants human sacrifice for Himself? I'll have to stay away from your church…

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No, Jesus is not an animal. He is the Son of the Living God and His Christ and God's gift of Love to humanity. The blood of animals can never wash away your sin that is why under the Law Yom Kippur was repeated year after year.

Blood was never meant to wash sin away. That is a Christian ideal. It is merely an offering for it. It is G-d who forgives.

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For the Nation of Israel that was under the Law and striving to obey God by Faith, Jesus is that High Priest who has entered into the Holy of Holies not in the tabernacle on earth but into the very presence of God in heaven with blood, not for his own sins because he did no sin, but for the atonement of the sins of the whole Nation of Israel. Therefore, the sins of every one who was of the Nation of Israel have been washed away by his blood, and they will be raised from dead by the Spirit of God at the coming of the Lord for the church. This is a perfect sacrifice and will not have to be repeated every year as was the atonement at Yom Kippur when the tabernacle was on earth.

What about the intentional sins?

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To all who come to God through Jesus by Faith with a repentant heart he is the Passover lamb of God without blemish whose blood when applied to the door posts of your house (your heart) will cause the death angel to pass over (you will pass from death unto life).

He didn't mean the qualifications of the passover lamb either.

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Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in F31 the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

The Romans killed him. And who ate Jesus the evening he was crucified?

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These are the “days of awe” where God is giving all a chance to believe the truth and come to Him with a repentant heart through the sacrifice that He has provided. It is not because of your goodness or my goodness but because God of God's goodness.

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John 10 – Study This Chapter

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Some shepherd he is. He's got millions of sheep all going in different directions. How many different beliefs are out there now? So much for being one.

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Ps 100:3
Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Praise God for His love and His Mercy

That last one is the only one I can agree with.

November 18, 2007 at 5:51 am#72165

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,20:03)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 15 2007,23:53)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,11:28)

Any have an explanation of this verse?

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

This verse goes hand in hand with this one

Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

No takers on these? Both speak of offerings given after Jesus' death. How can this be if Jesus paid it all? The word for 'gifts' in Hebrews 8:4 is 'doron'

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G1435
δῶρον
dōron
do'-ron
A present; specifically a sacrifice: – gift, offering.
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The word for 'offering' in Acts 21:26 is 'prosphora' which also implies a sacrifice.

Hi Towshab:

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Hebrews 8

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, F22 and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man

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4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, F23 which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put F24 my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more

I believe the scriptures that I quoted above should answer your questions.

No all you did was list the verses around the one I listed. The fact is that there was still sacrifices being offered by Jewish Christians even after Jesus died and was resurrected.

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As for what the Apostle Paul did, the following scriptures will explain:

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18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

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24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law

This is similar to what David did when he feigned that he was mad in the camp of the Philistines:

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1 Samuel 21:10 And David arose, and fled that day for fear of Saul, and went to Achish the king of Gath. 11 And the servants of Achish said unto him, Is not this David the king of the land? did they not sing one to another of him in dances, saying, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands? 12 And David laid up these words in his heart, and was sore afraid of Achish the king of Gath. 13 And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled F119 on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

So basically he deceived them. I need to get my verse back out about how Paul admitting to deceive people. But this is not the same as the David story. It just shows that Paul played the Jewish part in front of the Jewish Christians and then played the Gentile in front of them. He admits to this deception.

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

In other words Paul didn't stand for anything, he did what would win followers. He was a politician!

November 18, 2007 at 5:55 am#72167

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Israel

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,20:25)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 15 2007,23:01)

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 15 2007,03:52)

Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 15 2007,00:15)

I have a question. What is the big deal in excepting the entire Holy Bible, Old and New Testaments as 100% truth from God?

The advocating of stoning children to death would be a good start. Or do you not accept this part of the 100%?

Stuart

Yes stuff like that was in there but isn't it interesting that the death penalty in in Israel is almost non-existent while in the 'Christian county' of USA it is still prevalent in many states?

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In modern Israel, capital punishment is illegal in almost all circumstances. The death penalty was abolished in 1954 with the exceptions of conviction for treason during a time of war and genocide. Only one person has been civilly executed in the history of the modern State of Israel – Adolf Eichmann in 1962, after he was convicted in 1961 of participation in Nazi war crimes relating to the Holocaust. Others have been sentenced to death but won appeals to overturn the sentence.

It is generally accepted that one of the reasons for Israel's rare use of the death penalty is Jewish religious law. However, there is some debate as to whether Jewish law forbids capital punishment. Biblical law explicitly mandates the death penalty for 36 offenses, from murder and rape to idolatry and desecration of the Sabbath. Still, Jewish scholars since the beginning of the common era have developed such restrictive rules to prevent execution of the innocent that the death penalty has become de facto illegal. Most modern Jewish religious leaders and scholars believe that the death penalty should remain unused.
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Seems Jews know how to progress out of the 'stone ages' :laugh:

Hi Towshab:

Didn't you say that the whole law was still binding?

There were many offences that were captial offences under the Law. The following is just one example:

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Exodus 20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

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20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

But this is what Jesus replied to those who wanted to stone a woman to death because they caught her in the act of adultery:

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John 9:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

Someone asked “Did Jesus ever write anything?” Here is the answer. He wrote some words in the dirt!

Yes the whole law is supposed to be binding. But 2 things: (1) imperfect humans don't keep all of the law (2) the laws of Israel are not wholly based in the Torah.

November 18, 2007 at 5:59 am#72168

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,21:01)

Hi:

On Sodom and Gommorah:

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See? Nothing in the Tanakh that says that the sin of Sodom & Gomorrah was homosexuality but the Christian bible comes along and says it was. So the Christian bible caused people to hate Jews and homosexuals. Wonder who else made it on the list?

November 18, 2007 at 7:42 am#72175

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 18 2007,16:27)

which is the seeming joy your Nasty Friend in the sky gets from condemning those members of his creation to whom he has given a homosexual orientation.

Nasty Friend in the sky?

Stu,
I've had just about enough of this! You are talking about MY GOD and my heavenly Father whom I love dearly.

I'm sorry, but you are rude. I would not offend your “god” in this manner and I would appreciate you withholding your nasty comments about mine. This is the sort of thing that will get you booted out of here! Clean it up, mister. And have some respect, please.

Mandy

November 18, 2007 at 10:39 am#72181

Participant

Not3in1

How about you do some serious defending of your god, Mrs! Prove he is not as you read in the OT! Better still, demonstrate that he exists at all! How about a little less rudeness or taking of a high-handed attitude, when I am challenging another contributor to this forum on what I consider is inappropriate behaviour for a human being.

I don't have a god, despite the sophistry some spin about me. You will also note that I have not named the Nasty Friend in the Sky in question, and you are reading into this your god even though I am responding to 942767. Is all this true of your god too? Has your god also given people a homosexual orientation for which he condemns them? Has you god not created everything? If he has, then has it not gone the way he wanted it to? Is he omnipotent or not? I ask you this because I think there are several different gods being portrayed in this forum (see trinity forum for evidence of this).

On the point of the nasty god of the OT I may seem rude (and I have admitted that before), but I think 942767 is displaying the height of rudeness himself. Those who persecute people for no good reason except that their book of questionable authenticity and authorship says they should, in my opinion are behaving the same way as the German soldiers who said they were following orders. Rudeness doesn’t even begin to describe that attitude. Have you not considered the possibility that Leviticus is wrong, and that actually Jesus' behaviour towards those who were traditionally persecuted and discriminated against goes entirely against the savage requirements of the old testament? Can you give an actual reason why homosexuality is wrong, or do you fall into line with 942767 and respond with the non-reasons of scripture?

When you cut to the chase, christian belief just seems full of impossible contradictions – forgiveness, but with conditions, freedom, but with severe consequences for those who actually exercise it, compassion except when people are not behaving the way you want, logic except when it contradicts Genesis. Do you have any hard answers to these hard questions?

Stuart

November 18, 2007 at 3:37 pm#72191

kenrch

Participant

“Forgiveness But with conditions”.
Absolutely, would it be fair that God allow those who sin into heaven with those who don't. What would be accomplished? Heaven would be as the earth is NOW!

“But with severe consequences with those who actually exercise it”.
Stu their is only one who is GOOD. Should a murderer be allowed to continue to murder? Jesus said it's wrong to even get angry with your brother. Try and think “spiritual”.

“Compassion except when people are not behaving the way you want.”
What way is that?

'Logic except when it contradicts Genesis”
Does an accident make sense? As mentioned in another thread with all those “SUNS” and other planets out there their is NO proof of other life except right here on earth. LOGIC? Do accidents just happen? NO! They are caused. Did your engine in your automobile just happen?

Tell me Stu which of the Ten Commandments is “wrong”?

November 18, 2007 at 7:15 pm#72208

Participant

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 18 2007,16:18)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,13:34)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 14 2007,22:45)

Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi Mrs:

I was an unbeliever at one time myself and I believe that the scriptures state that all of humanity has been in unbelief at one time.

If you do not wish to anwer Towshab or Stu, that is your pre-rogative, but I intend to keep answering his questions hoping that he will convinced of the truth.

I do appreciate your concern.

God Bless

How do you know the reasons are not valid? I've yet to see a single person on here show me how Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies. That is proof enough against him as Moshiach.

Hi Towshab:

I know because the Spirit of God dwelling within me testifies to the fact that He is a reality and that Jesus is His Son and His Christ, and I know through many personal experiences, and I know because he answers my prayers.

And with this I will cease to answer any more of your posts. I will just continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

November 18, 2007 at 7:26 pm#72209

Participant

Hi Stu:

Rather that copy the response that you made to my post, I will simply say that all of humanity has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

God has not sent his Son to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Quote

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. F9 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

And with this, I will also leave to answer any more of your posts.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

November 18, 2007 at 7:49 pm#72210

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 18 2007,21:39)

Do you have any hard answers to these hard questions?

None.

None that an imbittered ex-believer would believe. I venture to say this is exactly what you are!

Someone who has more faith in the fairies at the bottom of his garden, and who cannot even recommend the bible for philosophy seekers, does not know the Bible like you do. Someone who considers God a murderer, a liar and a nasty friend would NOT spend time discussing him. I wonder, are you an ex-priest who left the calling because he is gay? It would seem fitting for your stances here. It would seem fitting because you are here, logging hours, in something you do not believe in/endorse/support/respect? Only a fool would waste their precious time on such things. You are certainly not here to question and learn. You are certainly not here to respect the beliefs of those you are visiting on this forum.

So which is it, Stu? Are you an ex-believer; homosexual or fool? In any case, you have under-estimated this forum. Your dis-respect for WHAT THIS FORUM STANDS FOR is not welcome or appreciated. This forum is a Christian site, in case it has escaped you. Therfore, if 94 is defending “the faith” then he is doing what is expected of a forum like this one. You, on the other hand, are breaking the rules. Does this register on your scale of pervasive logic?

Please remember where you are and refrain from disrespecting my God and Father! You may question, like we all do, however you are not welcome to call my God “nasty”. I draw the line on this behavior and I'm sure other brother's and sister's will not stand by while you desecrate our God's name and character. Question his ways all you want, it's a free country, but stop disrespecting him here! If you want to do that…….go somewhere else!

November 18, 2007 at 10:09 pm#72213

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 18 2007,13:15)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 18 2007,16:18)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,13:34)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 14 2007,22:45)

Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi Mrs:

I was an unbeliever at one time myself and I believe that the scriptures state that all of humanity has been in unbelief at one time.

If you do not wish to anwer Towshab or Stu, that is your pre-rogative, but I intend to keep answering his questions hoping that he will convinced of the truth.

I do appreciate your concern.

God Bless

How do you know the reasons are not valid? I've yet to see a single person on here show me how Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies. That is proof enough against him as Moshiach.

Hi Towshab:

I thought so too once and my life is really not different since finding the real truth.

And with this I will cease to answer any more of your posts. I will just continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

He has. I can hope for the same for you.

November 18, 2007 at 11:16 pm#72230

david

Participant

“God proceeded to create the man in his image . . . Male and female he created them. Further, God blessed them and God said to them: ‘Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it.’—Genesis 1:27, 28.

The Bible likens man’s position before his Creator to clay in the hands of a potter. It says: : “O man, who, then, really are you to be answering back to God? Shall the thing molded say to him that molded it, ‘Why did you make me this way?’” (Romans 9:20)
It is obvious from the way God made men and women that it is natural for them to be sexually attracted to one another. Sexual attraction to a member of the same sex, to an animal, or to a child is therefore unnatural.—Romans 1:26, 27, 32.

Of course, persecution of ones who CHOOSE the homosexual life, is completely wrong.

One who has experienced childhood sexual abuse, one who had parents or other caretakers who provided a distorted example of masculinity or femininity, or one who had exposure to pornography at an early age may understandably have difficulties. Genetic, hormonal, and psychological factors may also play a role in distorting sexual feelings.
I was reading an article in discover magazine yesterday that said that for every older brother you have, you have a 3% increase in likelihood of becoming a homosexual.

The Bible does not call particular attention to homosexuals as a group to be ostracized or hated by Christians. Moreover, it does not teach that God will punish homosexuals—or any of his creatures—by burning them in a fiery hell forever.—Compare Romans 6:23.

However, the Scriptures do set forth the moral standards of our Creator, which oftentimes run counter to modern-day mores. Homosexual acts, heterosexual sex between unmarried persons, and bestiality are all condemned in the Bible. (Exodus 22:19; Ephesians 5:3-5)

The apostle Paul was inspired to describe homosexual acts as expressions of “disgraceful sexual appetites” and as “contrary to nature.” He writes: “That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error. And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting.”—Romans 1:26-28.

November 19, 2007 at 2:02 am#72235

Participant

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 19 2007,09:09)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 18 2007,13:15)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 18 2007,16:18)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2007,13:34)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 14 2007,22:45)

Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi Mrs:

I was an unbeliever at one time myself and I believe that the scriptures state that all of humanity has been in unbelief at one time.

If you do not wish to anwer Towshab or Stu, that is your pre-rogative, but I intend to keep answering his questions hoping that he will convinced of the truth.

I do appreciate your concern.

God Bless

How do you know the reasons are not valid? I've yet to see a single person on here show me how Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies. That is proof enough against him as Moshiach.

Hi Towshab:

I thought so too once and my life is really not different since finding the real truth.

Quote

And with this I will cease to answer any more of your posts. I will just continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

He has. I can hope for the same for you.

Hi Towshab:

I've copied this to let you and others that may read this they way you copied it may misunderstand what I said to you. There is a sentence which apparently is something that you said and it appears that I have said it and that is:

Quote

I thought so too once and my life is really not different since finding the real truth.

I desire God's very best for you and your family, and I am praying for you.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

November 19, 2007 at 5:35 am#72250

IM4Truth

Participant

Quote
And with this I will cease to answer any more of your posts. I will just continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

942767 I hope and Pray that you keep your word, because I have been sick and tired of their posts.

Peace and Love Mrs. :blues: :blues: :blues:

November 19, 2007 at 8:55 am#72296

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 19 2007,06:26)

Hi Stu:

Rather that copy the response that you made to my post, I will simply say that all of humanity has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

God has not sent his Son to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Quote

And with this, I will also leave to answer any more of your posts.

Praise God for His Love and His Mercy

I am sorry to say that I think you are discompassionate and callous to put ancient writing ahead of living people.

Stuart

November 19, 2007 at 9:39 am#72298