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I was looking at this websites reasons against the trinity doctrine and I didn't find any disputing this verse (though it disputed Heb 1:6, with what came before). I was just wondering what arguments there are against this supporting a trinity doctrine.
Thanks,
Aton
Hi aton,
In the scriptures I have quoted below, I have included 'elohiym' and 'theos' next to the English word God/gods for your reference.
Psalm 45
For the director of music. To the tune of “Lilies.” Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song.
1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme
as I recite my verses for the king;
my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.2 You are the most excellent of men
and your lips have been anointed with grace,
since God has blessed you forever.3 Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;
clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.4 In your majesty ride forth victoriously
in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness;
let your right hand display awesome deeds.5 Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king's enemies;
let the nations fall beneath your feet.6 Your throne, O God (elohiym), will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God (theos), will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.The scripture you talk of is originally in Psalms as you can see.
If you read it I think you will see that the 'O God' part is not the Most High God and in addition to that the 'O God' has a God himself according to the next verse. Remember that Psalms also calls men gods (theos) and Christ quoted that too, when talking of men.Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohiym); you are all sons of the Most High.'John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'NOTE: Both OT scriptures use the same word (elohiym) and the NT ones use the same word (theos). Both these words can be applied to men. In addition to that they can also be applied to angels, Christ, and the Majesty on High.
I agree that it should be added into the Trinity writing.
Thanks.
Excellent T8,
People are often oblivious to the fact that Hebrew has several meanings for the word “god”.
They focus on diety when speaking of Christ but ignore his own words when he quoted Psalm 82:6 IN CONTEXT to what was being discussed. That is the claim by the Pharisees that he was making himself equal to God.Cool stuff Aton & T8,
Semmy
Yes it is quite ironic that the accusation that Jesus is making himself out to be God, by which Jesus defended himself against, is used as proof by Trinitarians that Jesus was indeed claiming to be God. What kind of defence is that?
The Jews considered it blasphemy, Trinitarians consider it truth, and Jesus defended himself against such accusations by saying that he was the son of God, not the Almighty. He then said we are gods to show the context he was using the word (eloyihim/theos).
Sometimes it's just a matter of reading something properly, by that I mean throwing out preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Amen t8!
Here is the scripture that opened my eyes and had me doubting the church I was involved with.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; “Therefore God, thy God”, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Therefore God (Jesus) your God (Jehovah) pretty simple.
You know all this talk about Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.Makes one wander why some people see the truth and others don't. I know that I have and I pray more truth for me to see. I don't want to learn nothing! I want to see it! And hear it! The way the Holy Spirit makes it truth. Know what I mean?
But the truth about the trinty seems to be a basic truth that one needs if he is to grow. Wouldn't you say?
OOps! Sorry if I strayed off the subject. Maybe this should have been in chat or something.
Quote (kenrch @ July 14 2006,05:00) Amen t8! Here is the scripture that opened my eyes and had me doubting the church I was involved with.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; “Therefore God, thy God”, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Therefore God (Jesus) your God (Jehovah) pretty simple.
You know all this talk about Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.Makes one wander why some people see the truth and others don't. I know that I have and I pray more truth for me to see. I don't want to learn nothing! I want to see it! And hear it! The way the Holy Spirit makes it truth. Know what I mean?
But the truth about the trinty seems to be a basic truth that one needs if he is to grow. Wouldn't you say?
OOps! Sorry if I strayed off the subject. Maybe this should have been in chat or something.
Amen, Ken! If we can't be persuaded to change by the word of God then why do we bother reading it?Quote (Cubes @ July 14 2006,02:25) Quote (kenrch @ July 14 2006,05:00) Amen t8! Here is the scripture that opened my eyes and had me doubting the church I was involved with.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; “Therefore God, thy God”, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Therefore God (Jesus) your God (Jehovah) pretty simple.
You know all this talk about Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.Makes one wander why some people see the truth and others don't. I know that I have and I pray more truth for me to see. I don't want to learn nothing! I want to see it! And hear it! The way the Holy Spirit makes it truth. Know what I mean?
But the truth about the trinty seems to be a basic truth that one needs if he is to grow. Wouldn't you say?
OOps! Sorry if I strayed off the subject. Maybe this should have been in chat or something.
Amen, Ken! If we can't be persuaded to change by the word of God then why do we bother reading it?
Cubes,That's what happens rather that the word changing man, man wants and sometimes does change the word.
People pick out a church like going through a supermarket reading the lables of each denomination.Let's see Baptist um, can't drink beer! What! Let me look at the catholic. That's better drink “just don't get drunk” Oh! but no meat on Friday and all that kneeling. There are so many denominations their has to be one that you can “submit” too. At least that's the way it was. Now a days (the last days) It's easier to just not believe at all. And who can blame them the TV evangelist are easily read by those who want to see it's all about MONEY! Besides the schools teach that I came from an ape. Hey Mom and Dad don't go to any church or even read the bible. But deep inside they know their IS a God. Nature itself teaches that their is a Creator.
Quote (kenrch @ July 14 2006,08:09) Quote (Cubes @ July 14 2006,02:25) Quote (kenrch @ July 14 2006,05:00) Amen t8! Here is the scripture that opened my eyes and had me doubting the church I was involved with.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; “Therefore God, thy God”, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Therefore God (Jesus) your God (Jehovah) pretty simple.
You know all this talk about Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.Makes one wander why some people see the truth and others don't. I know that I have and I pray more truth for me to see. I don't want to learn nothing! I want to see it! And hear it! The way the Holy Spirit makes it truth. Know what I mean?
But the truth about the trinty seems to be a basic truth that one needs if he is to grow. Wouldn't you say?
OOps! Sorry if I strayed off the subject. Maybe this should have been in chat or something.
Amen, Ken! If we can't be persuaded to change by the word of God then why do we bother reading it?
Cubes,That's what happens rather that the word changing man, man wants and sometimes does change the word.
People pick out a church like going through a supermarket reading the lables of each denomination.Let's see Baptist um, can't drink beer! What! Let me look at the catholic. That's better drink “just don't get drunk” Oh! but no meat on Friday and all that kneeling. There are so many denominations their has to be one that you can “submit” too. At least that's the way it was. Now a days (the last days) It's easier to just not believe at all. And who can blame them the TV evangelist are easily read by those who want to see it's all about MONEY! Besides the schools teach that I came from an ape. Hey Mom and Dad don't go to any church or even read the bible. But deep inside they know their IS a God. Nature itself teaches that their is a Creator.
Ha ha! You crack me up half the time reading your posts,
Good medicine and a blessing!Hey Cubes, T8 & Kenrch,
Wonderful posts and reasonings guys. This is such an oasis of sanity! One of the reason why people are so confused and the scriptures have no effect on them is that they have built on the wrong foundation. The trinity.
They worship Jesus as God and forget that God the Father has placed everything under our Lord's feet. They even misquote scripture or use titles such as Lord God which was originally YAHVAH EL in Hebrew and NOT referring to the Lord Jesus. Last night the worship leader was going off again, “Oh Lord God, Jesus, YOU say you are looking for true worshippers to worship you!” What??? I just started praising our Heavenly Father REALLY loudly at that point. It was JESUS who said to the Samaritan woman that the hour would come when true worshippers would worship THE FATHER in spirit in truth. [John 4:23] I guess that hour hasn't arrived at that church yet. Lord help me.
I just pray that God will keep me from being deceived like that. I know I make mistakes in scriptural understanding but that one basic fact I've known from infancy thanks to having Godly parents. That is Jesus our Lord has a God. However, people are drawn out by their own evil desires and one is to worship a god that is like themselves. The Romans did it. So did the Greeks and Babylonians. They all had triune gods who came down and took human form, while the Hebrews stood apart as being fiercely monotheistic.
Well, seminary studies are wearing me out but it is like being refined by fire. This weekend I do visits for people who are shut-in. They are one on one visits and you can even bring a communion service to share with someone who is confined to a bed. A pastor will read a comforting scripture and offer to pray for the person.
So there is a LOT the Lord wants me to do but warming a pew isn't one of them. I still have love and compassion for the people in the church I serve but I've got to get out and reach the lost with the message of truth. That's really all God wants from any of us. Not to comprimise but speak the truth even when it is not favorable.
Be blessed all! The sack awaits.
Semmy
Semmy,
How are you going to tell people what they have been taught all their life is wrong? There is only one way and that's to let the Holy Spirit do he talking.
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit shall teach you in that very hour what ye ought to say.
The Holy Spirit knows who is ready and who is not. We know nothing.
Quote (kenrch @ July 14 2006,04:43) Semmy, How are you going to tell people what they have been taught all their life is wrong? There is only one way and that's to let the Holy Spirit do he talking.
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit shall teach you in that very hour what ye ought to say.
The Holy Spirit knows who is ready and who is not. We know nothing.
Kenrch you are absolutely right!I only speak when the Holy Spirit of God urges me to do so. Many times I will bring up scriptures that I forgot I even knew. That is the Holy Spirit teaching me what to say and TO WHOM, at the proper time. It is the Holy Spirit that prepares the heart for the message and the messenger, (me), to reach that heart.
I have been serving at my church for almost a year and while saying I PERSONALLY do not subscribe to the trinity doctrine, I've never told anyone what they should believe. I have left that up to the Holy Spirit to teach them even as I am being taught.
Only when the pastor of education cornered me and wanted to FORCE me to say that Jesus is God, I spoke out in truth and I am not ashamed to have done so. The words were given to me right there and God is pleased when we stand up for the truth of His Word.
Now look at what the Holy Scriptures say about telling people what they are teaching or believing is not true:
Paul INSTRUCTED us to “…EXPOSE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT” (Titus 1:9). “…of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus [named individuals], who SWERVE AS TO TRUTH, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some” (II Tim. 2:180. “…which some, thrusting away, have made shipwreck as to the faith; OF WHOM ARE HYMENEUS AND ALEXANDER, whom I give up to Satan…” (I Tim. 1:20), etc.
Did it look as if Paul was shy about telling people in the Body of Christ what they believed was wrong? Doesn't to me. Teaching people that Jesus is God the Father in human flesh is just as big a lie as telling people the resurrection has already occured.
This false teaching has in fact shipwrecked the faith of many. Others were murdered because they would not accept the trinity under the Roman Catholic Church which was the STATE Church and the Justinian Code. In fact up until the 1700's people were STILL being martyred for not accepting this false teaching as well as other manmade doctrines.
So while I don't actively look for theological conflicts to engage in, when I am called upon to honor the TRUTH about God our Father and His Only Son, Christ Jesus, I will.
“Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.” [1Peter 3:15]
Shalom,
Semmy
It is a supreme pleasure, blessing, I can't find the words to define the sensation when the Holy Spirit teaches you while he is using you to teach someone else!
The Holy Spirit has taught me and the person I was talking to at the same time!!! All I could say was WOW! I didn't know that. Then He was teaching both of us!!God bless you Brother!
Quote (t8 @ July 13 2006,09:43) John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'NOTE: Both OT scriptures use the same word (elohiym) and the NT ones use the same word (theos). Both these words can be applied to men. In addition to that they can also be applied to angels, Christ, and the Majesty on High.
Context, context, context…..Here is John 10:34 in context:
JOHN 10
30” I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, ' I am the Son of God'?Here is a brief summary:
v30 Jesus makes a statement implying unity with their heavenly Father.
v31 The Jews picked up stones to kill him.
v32 Jesus question the Jews for the grounds on which He is being stoned.
V33 The Jews explain that they are about to stone him for BLASPHEMY (a stonable offense in first century Judea).
V34-36 Jesus reasons with the Jews with scripture pointing out to them that in their scriptures men are in fact called “gods” (Elohim). Thus their charges are rendered groundless on this technicality. They cannot legally stone him for inferring he is something synonymous with what scripture ascribes to men.Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6-7. Here it is in context:
PSALM 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers [elohim]. 2How long will you judge unjustly And show partiality to the wicked? Selah. 3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. 4Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. 5They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, “You are gods [Elohim], and all of you are sons of the Most High. 7″Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes.” 8Arise, O God, judge the earth! For it is You who possesses all the nations.The rulers (Elohim) in v1 are the “wicked” described in vs 2-4 and the “gods” in v6. These are MEN, magistrates (judges) in the land of Israel. These judges had perverted and abused the authority God had given them (Dan 4:25, 30, 34-37, 5:18-22, Rom 13:1-4), and as a result of this God declared “Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes”. It’s a little unclear and curious why these men are ascribed the title Elohim, some say its on account of their bestowed office and authority, others say it’s a form of Hebraic irony/sarcasm. The general consensus is that IT IS A LITERARY DEVICE. Either way it’s irrelevant to the topic a hand because quite clearly these “gods” (Elohim) are unmistakably human. They are not deity. They are men. Jesus point in John 10:34 was not that “men are divine”, Ps 82:6 most certainly does NOT bear this out, it was that in scripture the word Elohim is occasionally applied to men (BUT NEVER DOES IT INFER DEITY), and the pharisees objections were effectively groundless and He could not be legally stoned.
Also, think about it this way, if John 10:34 teaches that men are divine (including those deemed “wicked judges” who will “die like men and fall like any one of the princes”), in the same sense that Jesus is divine, then we have a VERY watered down divinity in Jesus don’t we! In fact the word loses any significance.
When elohim is applied to Yahshua it's a different story….
Check out the context that Hebrews 1:8 is put into:
Quote HEBREWS 1:1-11
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
7And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9″YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”This short passage records these things about Yahshua:
1.He made the world(s) (v2)
2.He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His [Father’s] nature (v3)
3.He “upholds all things by the word of His power” – He sustains the entire Universe. Its estimated that 100,000,000 solar systems exist, each with approximately 100,000,000 planetary bodies and Yahshua sustains every atom!
4.All the angels of God worship Him. Angels are forbidden to worship anyone But God (Rev 22:8-9).
5.The pre-incarnate Word of God is clearly identified as having “laid the foundations of the earth” the Heavens are also “the works of HIS hands” in v10. This is a quote from Psa 102:25 – and is a verse written about YHWH.
6.He is immutable (v12)None of these could be true of an angel, or any being of inferior ontology to Almighty God for that matter. Hebrews 1:8 (the correct rendering) fits naturally and harmoniously within the context of this passage.
The Father calls Yahshua “God” because He is….it's as simple as that.
Blessings
Sure Jesus is God. He is God's son. We are all God's children. Jesus is the first born of many brethern (that's you and me).
We are all His children and therefore gods. That God may be all in all. We are His family, Jesus being the first has authority over all. But the Father is greater then the Son and the Son is greater that man and man is greater that woman.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
It's really simple why try so hard to make it complicated.Three in one one in three God will be all in all. How many is that?
Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus prayed that we would be one even as He and the Father are one.
If we are one as the Son and Father are then we are one with the Father. Again God will be all in all .1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
Is 1:18,
After all you wrote are you saying Yahweh is calling Yeshua Himself? Does that make any sense?
Here's something that does. Here are two questions that will show who our Lord Jesus is in relationship to his Father. Hint: Kenrch gave you a clue by quoting 1 Co 15:28.Please Answer these two simple questions from the Holy Scriptures:
1.) Does our Lord Jesus have a God? Yes/No
2.) Does God the Father have a god? Yes/No
Here are some direct citations from God's Word, not some subjective interpretations.
“So that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Christ Jesus.”
[Romans 15:6]“Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father…and there is but ONE LORD, Jesus Christ…” [1Cor 8:6]
Now try as you may, there is no way you can make these scriptures say anything than what they do. There is only one God, the Father and there is only one Lord, Chirst Jesus. Peter stood up and boldly proclaimed that God the Father MADE this Jesus both Lord and Christ. (Read Acts 2:36) If he were already God Almighty, why would he have to be MADE Lord? Wouldn't he be that already? To go even further, take a look at the book of Revelation where our Lord is back in Heaven in his glorified state.
“Him who overcomes, I will make a pillar in the temple of MY GOD…”[Rev. 3:12]
Go ahead and read the whole verse. Our Lord Jesus states he HAS A GOD three times in this verse alone. Sorry but nowhere does scripture teach or say that God Almighty HAS A GOD or a FATHER. Therefore the Lord Jesus is just who the scriptures say he is. The only begotten Son of God, the only mediator BETWEEN God and man, subject to his Father and not a co-equal part of any so called trinity.
Now here's Kenrch's verse again:
“1Co 15:28 “And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.”
See that? This verse means just what it says too. You can't get around it Is 1:18. Our Lord Jesus always has been and always will be subject to the Father. However, God the Father is subject to NO ONE. Nice try though.
Bless yuz!
Semmy
Quote (kenrch @ July 15 2006,00:25) It is a supreme pleasure, blessing, I can't find the words to define the sensation when the Holy Spirit teaches you while he is using you to teach someone else!
The Holy Spirit has taught me and the person I was talking to at the same time!!! All I could say was WOW! I didn't know that. Then He was teaching both of us!!God bless you Brother!
Bless you too Kenrch!Very Biblical, SHORT respone to Is 1:18, “cut n' paste” articles to attempt to say our Lord Jesus is equal to or is God the Father.
You know, there ought to be a ban against clipping someone else's explanations of doctrine. If you can't explain it in your OWN words, you shouldn't be pasting here for other people. To me it just shows you are not confident in your own understanding of the Bible so you have to BORROW someone else's.
Really, I don't mind a dictionary definition or two like let's say this one:
HASTINGS DICTIONARY: “HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible by Schribners, on page 1015 under the topic: “THE TRINITY–The Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons & one Substance is NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC OR BY SCRIPTURAL PROOFS…” According to Mr. Hastings, one would have to use ILLOGICAL AND UNSCRIPTURAL data in order to prove a trinity.
However, when one's whole post is filled with similar references, articles and word studies in RED letters, it only makes others suspect that the person cutting and pasting does not himself know what he is talking about.
Well, that's my impression anyway.
Semmy
I agree Semmy.
When people just cut and paste their posts from other websites because they do not understand from that which they are taking, (except to say it supports their view) they run the very real risk of pointing people away from the path of truth and righteousness and therefore will be responsible for their action.
It is better for people to post in their own words that which they understand.
I do understand the benefit or quoting others, but I think that it should be to support that which a person has already written.
BTW, has any Trinitarian ever given you an answer to your question:
Quote 1.) Does our Lord Jesus have a God? Yes/No
2.) Does God the Father have a god? Yes/No?
Quote (seminarian @ July 15 2006,03:12) Very Biblical, SHORT respone to Is 1:18, “cut n' paste” articles to attempt to say our Lord Jesus is equal to or is God the Father. You know, there ought to be a ban against clipping someone else's explanations of doctrine. If you can't explain it in your OWN words, you shouldn't be pasting here for other people. To me it just shows you are not confident in your own understanding of the Bible so you have to BORROW someone else's.
Really, I don't mind a dictionary definition or two like let's say this one:
HASTINGS DICTIONARY: “HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible by Schribners, on page 1015 under the topic: “THE TRINITY–The Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons & one Substance is NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC OR BY SCRIPTURAL PROOFS…” According to Mr. Hastings, one would have to use ILLOGICAL AND UNSCRIPTURAL data in order to prove a trinity.
However, when one's whole post is filled with similar references, articles and word studies in RED letters, it only makes others suspect that the person cutting and pasting does not himself know what he is talking about.
Well, that's my impression anyway.
Semmy
Semarian,
If you are going to accuse me of plagerising the work of others, you are expected to produce some proof. If you cannot do this then your accusations are empty. Where have I lifted the text from Seminarian? Tell me if you know.BTW, the use of color is an editing feature of the websites software and I use it because it helps with the readibility of the posts. Others frequently use colour this way as well, t8 and Cubes for instance. Are they cut and pasting too?
Semaniarian, it is sinful to falsely accuse someone. It's called bearing false witness. And if you cannot produce the evidence to back up your statement then the onus is on you to make ammends.
Quote (seminarian @ July 15 2006,02:53) Is 1:18, After all you wrote are you saying Yahweh is calling Yeshua Himself? Does that make any sense?
Here's something that does. Here are two questions that will show who our Lord Jesus is in relationship to his Father. Hint: Kenrch gave you a clue by quoting 1 Co 15:28.Please Answer these two simple questions from the Holy Scriptures:
1.) Does our Lord Jesus have a God? Yes/No
2.) Does God the Father have a god? Yes/No
Here are some direct citations from God's Word, not some subjective interpretations.
“So that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Christ Jesus.”
[Romans 15:6]“Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father…and there is but ONE LORD, Jesus Christ…” [1Cor 8:6]
Now try as you may, there is no way you can make these scriptures say anything than what they do. There is only one God, the Father and there is only one Lord, Chirst Jesus. Peter stood up and boldly proclaimed that God the Father MADE this Jesus both Lord and Christ. (Read Acts 2:36) If he were already God Almighty, why would he have to be MADE Lord? Wouldn't he be that already? To go even further, take a look at the book of Revelation where our Lord is back in Heaven in his glorified state.
“Him who overcomes, I will make a pillar in the temple of MY GOD…”[Rev. 3:12]
Go ahead and read the whole verse. Our Lord Jesus states he HAS A GOD three times in this verse alone. Sorry but nowhere does scripture teach or say that God Almighty HAS A GOD or a FATHER. Therefore the Lord Jesus is just who the scriptures say he is. The only begotten Son of God, the only mediator BETWEEN God and man, subject to his Father and not a co-equal part of any so called trinity.
Now here's Kenrch's verse again:
“1Co 15:28 “And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.”
See that? This verse means just what it says too. You can't get around it Is 1:18. Our Lord Jesus always has been and always will be subject to the Father. However, God the Father is subject to NO ONE. Nice try though.
Bless yuz!
Semmy
Working on a response to this post at present…..
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