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Quote (942767 @ Mar. 26 2007,04:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,21:18) NH Yes some tranlations say “Through Him”, but Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 says it was by “Yeshua\YHWHs own hands”.
This is not ambiguous.
Hi WJ:Hebrews 1:1-2 states: “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;…”
Hebrews 1:10 states: “And Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thine hands:”
Genesis 1:1 states: In the beginning GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”.
And so, how do you reconcile Hebrews 1:2 with 1:10 and Gen. 1:1?
God Bless
94Good question. This is my understanding!
Listen to these words…
Jn 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, *these also doeth the Son likewise.*
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Did the Father have a part?
Absolutly, because whatever the Word saw the Father do that he did also!
But Heb 1:10 explicitly shows “by the Hands of Yeshua/YHWH” ALL THINGS were made that was made.
Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:If I hire a contractor to build my house, then I built the house “through” the contractor.
But I could also say I bulit the house “BY” the contractor.
But it was the hands of the contractor that did the work.
So because of Heb 1:10 and Pss 102, I prefer the word “BY”.
Simply because I dont believe the Word was just an empty shell or vessel or a puppet on a string that the Father worked through.
Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him notBlessings
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2007,05:47) Hi w,
Did you not say there are alternative meanings
but you now insist we accept the one you chose?
NHIs there an alternative meaning for Heb 1:10 and Pss 102?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2007,06:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2007,05:47) Hi w,
Did you not say there are alternative meanings
but you now insist we accept the one you chose?
NHIs there an alternative meaning for Heb 1:10 and Pss 102?
I only know of one reasonable one WJ….but we'll see what t8 comes up with….Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 26 2007,07:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2007,06:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2007,05:47) Hi w,
Did you not say there are alternative meanings
but you now insist we accept the one you chose?
NHIs there an alternative meaning for Heb 1:10 and Pss 102?
I only know of one reasonable one WJ….but we'll see what t8 comes up with….
Is 1:18True, there is only one reason!
I am not sure what you mean one reason.
Are you insinuating that he is God because the worlds were made by him? Even if you aren't I am sure that you hold to this.
Can I also ask if you believe that God made everything THROUGH his son.
Do you believe this? Yes or no will suffice.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2007,10:51) I am not sure what you mean one reason. Are you insinuating that he is God because the worlds were made by him? Even if you aren't I am sure that you hold to this.
Can I also ask if you believe that God made everything THROUGH his son.
Do you believe this? Yes or no will suffice.
t8You aparantly didnt read my previous post!
The answer is “yes' but not as some puppet on a string or an empty vessel.
Jesus is and was the Word/God.
By him all things were made that was made and without him was not anything made that was made.
It was by “his hands” the heavens and the earth and all therein were created.
Hi W,
You say
“Simply because I dont believe the Word was just an empty shell or vessel or a puppet on a string that the Father worked through.”Any suggestion that Christ as a vessel was a puppet does not fit with Gethsemane when his disciples watched him pray to his Father God.
Lk 22
” 40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2007,22:04) Hi W,
You say
“Simply because I dont believe the Word was just an empty shell or vessel or a puppet on a string that the Father worked through.”Any suggestion that Christ as a vessel was a puppet does not fit with Gethsemane when his disciples watched him pray to his Father God.
Lk 22
” 40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
NHHe is more than just a man, anointed by the Father like any other prophet.
Did not Jesus say “I am not of this world”?
Jn 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.He is the Word/God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven my friend.
To WorshippingJesus.
So you admit then that God created all things THROUGH the son.
Good.
So how does that prove that he is God, because you even acknowledged the following yourself?
GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON.
The argument that this makes him God is ridiculous.
E.g., Jesus builds his Church we know that from scripture. If Jesus uses me to add anything or anybody to his Church does that make me Jesus. Of course not. To believe this is also ridiculous. But Jesus can build his Church through us if he so chooses and he does. He started with 12 people and he still builds his Church through people.
Jesus being God because God created all things through him is more faulty reasoning from Trinitarians who teach under their own authority.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2007,22:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2007,22:04) Hi W,
You say
“Simply because I dont believe the Word was just an empty shell or vessel or a puppet on a string that the Father worked through.”Any suggestion that Christ as a vessel was a puppet does not fit with Gethsemane when his disciples watched him pray to his Father God.
Lk 22
” 40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
NHHe is more than just a man, anointed by the Father like any other prophet.
Did not Jesus say “I am not of this world”?
Jn 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.He is the Word/God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven my friend.
Hi w,
So you agree with Peter and Paul he was a man and a prophet?
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:His origins were great as Peter also showed but he was still just a man enlivened from above so we could follow him.
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2007,22:43) To WorshippingJesus. So you admit then that God created all things THROUGH the son.
Good.
So how does that prove that he is God, because you even acknowledged the following yourself?
GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON.
The argument that this makes him God is ridiculous.
E.g., Jesus builds his Church we know that from scripture. If Jesus uses me to add anything or anybody to his Church does that make me Jesus. Of course not. To believe this is also ridiculous. But Jesus can build his Church through us if he so chooses and he does. He started with 12 people and he still builds his Church through people.
Jesus being God because God created all things through him is more faulty reasoning from Trinitarians who teach under their own authority.
t8No it is ridiculous to deny the scriptures that clearly show that Jesus is God, One with the Father and with the Spirit.
Is it ridiculous to say that you and your wife is “ONE Flesh”?
To persons but one flesh. Can you explain that? Did not Paul say this was a Mystery?
Is it ridiculous to say that the Body of Christ is “One Body”, and yet many members?
Is it ridiculous to say that God is Spirit, and there is “ONLY ONE SPIRIT”, which is called Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, or Holy Spirit?
Is it ridiculous to say I built my house through the contractors that did the work?
You obviously didnt read my previous post. Read Jn 5:17-23.
Your analogy that we are not Jesus just because we help build the Church is a straw, because Jesus is the Head and the Spirit By which we all drink. Its his Church Not mine.
Do you compare the Sons of God to the creator of the universe, the Word/God, the Lord from heaven, the Unique Son of God?
All things were made by him and for him. Can you make that claim?
Its ridiculous to look scriptures right in your face and deny them because they do not fit in your theology!
Your heretical teaching to bring the exalted Christ down to a created being like Angels or Sons of God is full of holes.
By the way as I said the Greek word for by and through is “dia”
It can be translated “By” or “Through”.
Cant wait to hear your slant on Heb 1:10 And Pss 102, which clearly shows Yeshua/YHWH clearly by his own hands created all things.
These scriptures are not ambiguous!
Hi w,
You say.
“Is it ridiculous to say that God is Spirit, and there is “ONLY ONE SPIRIT”, which is called Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, or Holy Spirit?”
No.
But it is ridiculous to say that Spirit is another PERSON from the Father and Christ in God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2007,22:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2007,22:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2007,22:04) Hi W,
You say
“Simply because I dont believe the Word was just an empty shell or vessel or a puppet on a string that the Father worked through.”Any suggestion that Christ as a vessel was a puppet does not fit with Gethsemane when his disciples watched him pray to his Father God.
Lk 22
” 40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
NHHe is more than just a man, anointed by the Father like any other prophet.
Did not Jesus say “I am not of this world”?
Jn 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.He is the Word/God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven my friend.
Hi w,
So you agree with Peter and Paul he was a man and a prophet?
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:His origins were great as Peter also showed but he was still just a man enlivened from above so we could follow him.
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
NHDeceptions, Smoke screens and missrepresentation.
Do you see anywhere in my post that I said Jesus was not a Prophet or that during his earthly ministry he was not annointed?
I said he is more than that, though he is all that, but he was/is the Lord from heaven.
Especially now all power has returned back to him which he shared with the Father as the Word/God from eternity.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2007,06:46) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 26 2007,04:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,21:18) NH Yes some tranlations say “Through Him”, but Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 says it was by “Yeshua\YHWHs own hands”.
This is not ambiguous.
Hi WJ:Hebrews 1:1-2 states: “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;…”
Hebrews 1:10 states: “And Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thine hands:”
Genesis 1:1 states: In the beginning GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”.
And so, how do you reconcile Hebrews 1:2 with 1:10 and Gen. 1:1?
God Bless
94Good question. This is my understanding!
Listen to these words…
Jn 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, *these also doeth the Son likewise.*
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Did the Father have a part?
Absolutly, because whatever the Word saw the Father do that he did also!
But Heb 1:10 explicitly shows “by the Hands of Yeshua/YHWH” ALL THINGS were made that was made.
Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:If I hire a contractor to build my house, then I built the house “through” the contractor.
But I could also say I bulit the house “BY” the contractor.
But it was the hands of the contractor that did the work.
So because of Heb 1:10 and Pss 102, I prefer the word “BY”.
Simply because I dont believe the Word was just an empty shell or vessel or a puppet on a string that the Father worked through.
Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him notBlessings
Hi WJ:Thanks for your response. I see that you are using New Testament scriptures to justify Hebrews 1:10 which states: God speaking to Jesus, “And thou Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.
You show Jesus in the role of the contractor doing what God directs him to do, and so what Jesus is teaching and doing is coming from the Father, at least that is how I understand the scriptures to which you allude.
We know that Jesus is instrumental in the New creation, that is the last Adam, in that he shed his blood to wash away the sins of those who were striving to obey God from creation until his resurrection and for all of those who come to God with a repentant heart through him since his resurrection.
As you say, the Word that He taught and applied to his daily life came from God. John 7:14-17 states: “And the Jews marvelled, saying, how knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them and said, my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
And so, John 1:1 states: “In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God and the Word was God”. The Word of God is coming to Jesus and Jesus is teaching what is coming to him to humanity both in verbally and by applying it to his life. John 1:14 states: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The whole of the Old Testament prophetically speaks of the Word of God becoming flesh either by scripture or symbolically.
Gen. 3:15 God speaking to the serpent states: “And I will put emnity betwee thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel”. Noah's Ark symbolically speaks of the body of Christ. When called Abraham, God indicated that He would bless all the families of the earth through him, although yet he did not have an heir. God promised him an heir that would come through his wife even in their old age. And God said, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Gen. 21:12) When God tested Abraham by asking him to offer Isaac on the altar, the ram caught in the thicket testified of Jesus. The Exodus symbolically speaks of deliverance of bondage from sin through him. The Law is that which Jesus was to fulfill. Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is prophetic relative to Jesus. The High Priest who entered into the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle on earth was symbolic of Jesus as our High Priest entering into the Holy of Holies into the very presence of God.
And there are various scriptures in the Psalms and in the Prophets testify of him.And so, I conclude from the above that Hebrews 1:10 could only mean that Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of his hands in that God made every thing with by him (that is with him in mind) and for him (that is he is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him).
“When they came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, some say that thou art John the Baptist: some Elias; and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, but whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou Simon Barjona; for flesh and blood hat not revealed it unto thee, but my Father in heaven. And I say unto thee, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
If Jesus is the contractor, then it appears that we are the sub-contractors. The Apostle Paul states: “According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay that that is laid, which
is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire”. (1 Co. 3:10-15)God has revealed to us that Jesus is His only begotten Son and his Christ, and so, why is it necessary to keep searching the scriptures for some other revelation? Is this not sufficient? God made man in his image. He is God in that He is the express image of God's person as Hebrews 1:3 tells us, but if the Word that He taught and obeyed came from God. How then can he be God?
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,02:29) Hi W,
Our Lord, like us, has a Godwith him in heaven.
NHYes and according to Jn 1:1 and Heb 1:8 the Father calls Jesus God too.
Quote God has revealed to us that Jesus is His only begotten Son and his Christ, and so, why is it necessary to keep searching the scriptures for some other revelation? Is this not sufficient? God made man in his image. He is God in that He is the express image of God's person as Hebrews 1:3 tells us, but if the Word that He taught and obeyed came from God. How then can he be God? God Bless
94
Because scriptures declare his is God?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2007,07:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,02:29) Hi W,
Our Lord, like us, has a Godwith him in heaven.
NHYes and according to Jn 1:1 and Heb 1:8 the Father calls Jesus God too.
Hi W,
Jesus has a God.
The Father has no God.Surely you have not joined the cultbuster circus.
He believes God is three and all have a god to worship!Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2007,07:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2007,07:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,02:29) Hi W,
Our Lord, like us, has a Godwith him in heaven.
NHYes and according to Jn 1:1 and Heb 1:8 the Father calls Jesus God too.
Hi W,
Jesus has a God.
The Father has no God.
NHThen I guess you need to put some whiteout on those scriptures, because the scriptures clearly teach the Father and the Son and the Spirit is One God!
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