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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 24 2007,23:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,23:26) NH Are yoiu forgetting the wonderfull words of our Saviour God…
Matt 16:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.You see, he is the Lord from heaven, God in the flesh.
So very often you will find God the Father saying he will and yet Jesus says he will do the same.
Jesus makes “individual claims” to his own works and words.
And so Jesus said “I and my Father are One”.
Hi W,
So is Paul God because he is a builder, even a wise master builder, too?1cor 3
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.That is the problem with relying on inference and one or two verses rather than revelation in context.
Revelation is from God.
Inference from the fertile but fallacious minds of men.Nothing can change Christ from being the Son of God to God Himself.
He is not his own father.
NHI never heard Paul say Upon this Rock I will build “my Church”!
Have you?
Now we do see that the Church is called the “Church of God.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.HMMM. Church of God which he purchased with his own blood.
1 Tim 3:5
For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?Church of Christ, Church of God, same thing.
Hi W,
Are you beginning to understand that Jesus Christ works for his Father God, in the name of the Father God, as His mighty Lieutenant? His Son by His Spirit serves Him perfectly, fulfilling His will in all things.Greetings ALL
Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
Also …
Col 1.16 like Heb 1.10 is speaking of the new heavens and earth, the Coming Kingdom of GOD, hence,
(Col 1:16) … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]Hope this helps to edify!
So a single verse in the second chapter (yes I know chapter divisions are arbitrary) provides the context for the entire first chapter of the book??
You can't be serious Adam Pastor…..
Hi Adam
Quote Col 1.16 like Heb 1.10 is speaking of the new heavens and earth, the Coming Kingdom of GOD, hence,
(Col 1:16) … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]I have to disagree. Colossians does not sound like a future heaven to me. Especially when you read that verse in different translations. Also, the word “were” is a past tense.
The first part of your post was really interesting though.
Edit: Um on second thoughts, No I cant agree with the whole post. Sorry
Hugs
PhoenixIn Brenton's translation of the LXX, the verses quoted by the Hebrews author read:
Psa 102:25 (101:25) In the beginning thou, O Lord, didst lay the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.
Psa 102:26 (101:26) They shall perish, but thou remainest: and they all shall wax old as a garment; and as a vesture shalt thou fold them, and they shall be changed.
Psa 102:27 (101:27) But thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.It's still past tense verbs being used (“didst lay”) Adam…and even in the LXX it manifestly refers to the Genesis creation.
Compare it to:
Jeremiah 10:10-12
10But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. 11Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.” 12It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.and:
Nehemiah 9:6
“You alone are the LORD You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.And;
Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has founded forever.And;
Psalm 96:5
5For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.And;
Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,And;
Isaiah 45:18
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.These are all allusions to the Genesis creation and the language is more or less identical to the LXX reading of Psalms 101:25….
I think you are making a huge stretch AP.
Hi Is 1.18,
Not as big a stretch as you make when,
in seeing both Christ and his Father involved in creation,
proves to you that they are the same being.Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your (Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD (YHWH), am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,Job 9:5-9
5″It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, When He overturns them in His anger; 6Who shakes the earth out of its place,And its pillars tremble; 7Who commands the sun not to shine, And sets a seal upon the stars; 8Who alone stretches out the heavens And tramples down the waves of the sea;I don't see how these verses allows for an agent outside of YHWH to be involved in the creation…..do you?
Hi Is 1.18,
The Father is not the Son.
There are two but the builder takes all the credit as is His right.Quote Col 1:16) … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]AP
The Greek word for “By” is “dia”. which can also be translated;
Through or By!
In keeping with the harmony of scriptures, “BY” is the better word because Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 explicitly shows that the created heavens and earth are the works of Yeshua/YHWHs hands!
Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him notQuote (Phoenix @ Mar. 25 2007,05:17) Hi Adam Quote Col 1.16 like Heb 1.10 is speaking of the new heavens and earth, the Coming Kingdom of GOD, hence,
(Col 1:16) … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]I have to disagree. Colossians does not sound like a future heaven to me. Especially when you read that verse in different translations. Also, the word “were” is a past tense.
The first part of your post was really interesting though.
Edit: Um on second thoughts, No I cant agree with the whole post. Sorry
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
The Colossians verses I speak of has nothing to do with Heaven!The context is the future Coming 'Kingdom of GOD' or
Kingdom OF Heaven
(The Kingdom of GOD and the Kingdom of Heaven are the very same thing!)There is a world of difference in speaking about Heaven & 'the Kingdom OF Heaven/GOD'
Don't confuse the terms!
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,10:34) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 25 2007,05:17) Hi Adam Quote Col 1.16 like Heb 1.10 is speaking of the new heavens and earth, the Coming Kingdom of GOD, hence,
(Col 1:16) … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]I have to disagree. Colossians does not sound like a future heaven to me. Especially when you read that verse in different translations. Also, the word “were” is a past tense.
The first part of your post was really interesting though.
Edit: Um on second thoughts, No I cant agree with the whole post. Sorry
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
The Colossians verses I speak of has nothing to do with Heaven!The context is the future Coming 'Kingdom of GOD' or
Kingdom OF Heaven
(The Kingdom of GOD and the Kingdom of Heaven are the very same thing!)There is a world of difference in speaking about Heaven & 'the Kingdom OF Heaven/GOD'
Don't confuse the terms!
UGH that was what I meant. I was about to give up on the thread till I read your post. Evidently I was tired and did not explain properly and for this I AM SORRY.Even still, it has nothing to do with the future Coming 'Kingdom of GOD' or
Kingdom OF HeavenQuote Don't confuse the terms! 
Errm… You seem to have confused the terms Past & Present tense with the Future tense16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
were = in the past
are = presentAs for the rest, I believe Is1:18 has responded on that.
Cheers
To ANY who are interested …
Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. Quote (Greg S. Deuble @ They never told me THIS in church!, p.236-7) It has been argued that since these words quoted from Psalm 102 where their original reference to Jehovah are now applied to the risen Son, then Jesus must be Jehovah. If we are not careful to follow the original intention of the writer it would be easy to see how these verses can be misread to mean that the Lord Messiah is the one who originally created the universe. But if we turn back to Psalm 102, the author's reference point, we will quickly understand that the Psalmist is also speaking about the coming Messianic age of the Kingdom which is to be centred in Jerusalem. Thus is a prophecy that “will be written for the generation to come; that a people yet to be created may praise the LORD”
(Ps. 102.18).
The Psalmist anticipates the day when Jerusalem will be restored under Messiah. … This Messianic agent through whom GOD will speak will be the one “to establish [literally, 'plant'] the heavens; to found the earth, and to say to Zion, You are my people ” (Is. 51.16).
The Word Bible Commentary says of these verses:This makes no sense if it refers to the original (Genesis) creation … In other instances God acts alone using no agent (Isa. 44.24). Here the one he had hidden in his hand is his agent. Heavens and land refers metaphorically to the totality of the order in Palestine. Heaven means the broader overarching structure of the empire, while “land” is the political order in Palestine itself.
For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 25 2007,11:48) Errm… You seem to have confused the terms Past & Present tense with the Future tense16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
were = in the past
are = present
Yep! Post-Resurrection.
Paul is talking about the resurrected, exalted Messiah!
And his role in being the very reason for which all things in the new heavens & earth were created, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; All these things are now reserved in Heaven and will be brought into being at the Second Coming of the Messiah.
The context of Col 1:16ff is about the new heavens/earth to come.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2007,07:44) Quote Col 1:16) … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]AP
The Greek word for “By” is “dia”. which can also be translated;
Through or By!
In keeping with the harmony of scriptures, “BY” is the better word because Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 explicitly shows that the created heavens and earth are the works of Yeshua/YHWHs hands!
Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not
Hi W,
Opinion?
To strengthen a false premise=that Jesus is his own father.Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,11:59) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 25 2007,11:48) Errm… You seem to have confused the terms Past & Present tense with the Future tense16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
were = in the past
are = present
Yep! Post-Resurrection.
Paul is talking about the resurrected, exalted Messiah!
And his role in being the very reason for which all things in the new heavens & earth were created, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; All these things are now reserved in Heaven and will be brought into being at the Second Coming of the Messiah.
The context of Col 1:16ff is about the new heavens/earth to come.
Nah sorry I disagree.Hugs
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,21:18) NH Yes some tranlations say “Through Him”, but Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 says it was by “Yeshua\YHWHs own hands”.
This is not ambiguous.
Hi WJ:Hebrews 1:1-2 states: “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;…”
Hebrews 1:10 states: “And Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thine hands:”
Genesis 1:1 states: In the beginning GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”.
And so, how do you reconcile Hebrews 1:2 with 1:10 and Gen. 1:1?
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2007,23:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2007,07:44) Quote Col 1:16) … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]AP
The Greek word for “By” is “dia”. which can also be translated;
Through or By!
In keeping with the harmony of scriptures, “BY” is the better word because Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 explicitly shows that the created heavens and earth are the works of Yeshua/YHWHs hands!
Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not
Hi W,
Opinion?
To strengthen a false premise=that Jesus is his own father.
NHThese are the words of the scriptures not mine?
Reject them if you like!
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