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Quote (Stu @ Sep. 28 2008,22:00) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 26 2008,02:09) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 25 2008,06:51) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 25 2008,06:35) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 24 2008,22:04) t8 It is the same science on which is based the last antibiotic you took, or the doping of the silicon that leads to the chip that processes your typing here. If Alexander Fleming and his colleagues had needed such a 'foundation' for their work then we might still have the rates of death from bacterial infection that killed so many in the christian-dominated dark ages. I think you need to make a choice here whether you actually accept science or not. If you don't then say so publicly: send you computer back with a suitably Luddite scriptural verse pinned to it. Tell your pharmacist that you would prefer not to take pills that were the product of nothing more than his 'imagination and bias'.
Scientists have the honesty that you lack. They say that with some things (and biological evolution is not one of them) they have some guesses but they really don't know. You leap in and claim absolute knowledge gained from some divine source that cannot even be demonstrated to exist, and that demands more questions that it answers. Whose philosophy is worthless?
Stuart
Stuart
Greetings Stu….Iam a believer in science and it is just another of the many ways the creator of all that is communicates with man..It is the huberous of man that creates the difference between science and theology,it is mans enmity towards God that prevents him from seeing that science is nothing more than the continuation of Gods creation….Science and Religion have the battleground for interllectual vandals for ages…
Hi theodorejScience does not care for the assumption of the existence of a deity that cannot be detected objectively, it says nothing at all about it. That is the fundamental disagreement they have. Science is about explaining, and refining the explanations. What theology is about I have no clear idea. It looks like smoke and mirrors to me, like the TV psychics who have not given by 'psychic powers' a single piece of novel evidence leading to a conviction in any unsolved murder case, in any country, ever. Science has saved countless lives and made global communication like this possible. Those are two tangible results, wherever you stand on the ethics of each.
Can you think of a single outcome of belief in christian doctrine that has done as much good as the appendectomy operation say, that could not possibly be done without christianity? Other than a placebo effect, christianity has no tangible result in any area, and has caused as much misery as any human activity that places the death of a human at its core.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….The appendectomy operation started as an Idea/theory that had to start with an inspiration,in this case an inspiration to to heal….And I might say the inspiration to do good for your fellow man can only come from a love that surpasses understanding…..As far has your thesis that science pays no attention to an undefined/unseen diety…If you examine the concept of Quantum physics you will see that the unknown is a key element in the equations used to draw conclusive answers…..
Huh? What 'love that surpasses understanding'? Why not have the operation invented by a smartarse doctor who just wants to massage his own ego and pick up women by seeming to be very clever? Not likely, I'll grant you, but I sure wouldn't care either way if he will saved me from the timebomb of an infectable appendix that your Imaginary Friend callously created me with. Is that another example of 'his love'? Of course it is not, the appendix is a vestigial organ from the caecum of an earlier ancestral form that is still made by our genome because it does not take much energy to make it and infection of it has not been a big enough selection pressure to favour losing it. Yet. It is either a vindictive creator, an incompetent creator or natural selection at work. All the evidence points at the latter, as you should know.By the way, exactly what do you mean by uncertainty in quantum mechanical equations?
Stuart
Greetings Stu….Just as imploy the power of an imaginery diety….So inturn matheticions/scientists imploy the factor of an unknown as one of the elements in computing equations dealing in quatum sciences..eg PhysicsHi theodorej
There is no question that the quantum world is quite different in character from the macro world which is built on it, but I did ask 'exactly' what do you mean? Specifically what term in what equation?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 29 2008,07:37) Hi theodorej There is no question that the quantum world is quite different in character from the macro world which is built on it, but I did ask 'exactly' what do you mean? Specifically what term in what equation?
Stuart
Stu…..I would think any mathematical equation whose formula is based on probability or statistical in nature has to consider the unknown…just how these are formulated is an area that is beyond my working knowledge….But Iam all ears!Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 29 2008,19:24) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 29 2008,07:37) Hi theodorej There is no question that the quantum world is quite different in character from the macro world which is built on it, but I did ask 'exactly' what do you mean? Specifically what term in what equation?
Stuart
Stu…..I would think any mathematical equation whose formula is based on probability or statistical in nature has to consider the unknown…just how these are formulated is an area that is beyond my working knowledge….But Iam all ears!
So what maths are we talking about here?Stuart
What Maths?
1, 2, or 3 Stu.
1) Cosmos was created by God.
2) Cosmos came from nothing at some point.
3) Cosmos has always existed in some non-living form.You ridicule those who believe the first one and you will not admit to which of the other 2 you hold to because by doing that you open yourself up to ridicule too.
So rather than admitting that the first option has merit, you simply say that its likelihood is .002% and of the others you haven't got a clue.
So if you call that science, then God help us.
Heavennet cosmology chooses option 1, what about Stuology?
If Stuology makes statements that write off the first option, then why if Stulology admits that it knows nothing about this subject?
Where is the science that leads to this conclusion? Or is this going to be like watching 'Lost', where you never seem to get the answer.
Hi theodorej
You might be thinking of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that basically says you can either know where a particle is or know its speed but the more accurately you know one the less accurately you can know the other. This inherently arises with very small particles because you will naturally change the position or speed of the particle simply by attempting to measure it, say by bouncing a photon off it. The macroscopic world that we are familiar with is built on a sub-microscopic world that is completely counter-intuitive. You would have to point out to me what theological implications that might have. Bear in mind that I am yet to be convinced that theology (whatever it is) has any useful contribution to make to any field of human discovery.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 30 2008,23:32) Hi theodorej You might be thinking of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that basically says you can either know where a particle is or know its speed but the more accurately you know one the less accurately you can know the other. This inherently arises with very small particles because you will naturally change the position or speed of the particle simply by attempting to measure it, say by bouncing a photon off it. The macroscopic world that we are familiar with is built on a sub-microscopic world that is completely counter-intuitive. You would have to point out to me what theological implications that might have. Bear in mind that I am yet to be convinced that theology (whatever it is) has any useful contribution to make to any field of human discovery.
Stuart
Greetings Stu…..An interesting point,notwithstanding the jargin and the presumtive tone of your presentation….To be honest, Stu…I have no Idea what you are talking about….
Theology is the study of Theos….My sense is you have an inquisative nature….Iam not sure of the depth of your interest,but ,God has been with us for some time now and science heralds his presense….it is only the huberous of man coupled with his nature ,which is enmity with God….As I said before “science is a continuation of the creation process”..Hi theodorej
Quote An interesting point,notwithstanding the jargin and the presumtive tone of your presentation….To be honest, Stu…I have no Idea what you are talking about….
OK. I had to be a bit presumptive because I was not sure what maths/physics/cosmology you meant. I will let it go then. I still think you must have been unwittingly referring to Heisenberg, which itself counts for me as a far more interesting subject of study than religious mythology.Quote Theology is the study of Theos….
That is where the smoke and mirrors start as far as I am concerned. You firstly have to decide which Theos to study, it is the nature of the OT god (the one that walks around gardens asking where people are) or the NT god (that cannot be seen) that you seek? Secondly you have to decide what the terms of such study should be. All the theology I have ever seen is various interpretations of scripture, which as you know I regard as just about the faultiest premise you can have.Quote My sense is you have an inquisative nature….Iam not sure of the depth of your interest,but ,God has been with us for some time now and science heralds his presense….
I think it is unreasonable to claim that science says anything about gods at all, except ‘what god’?Quote it is only the huberous of man coupled with his nature ,which is enmity with God….
I think any reasonable person with a sense of justice should be very angry with this brutal and unjust god. I consider those who worship such a monster a bit spineless really. Should we not have been trying to stop the smiting of innocent people? I for one would have huge enmity for such a god and I think in other threads here I have already mounted a good ethical argument for it. Of course it is also a pointless argument because the only effect god actually has is through the action of those who believe there is such a thing.Quote As I said before “science is a continuation of the creation process”..
Except in regard to the imagination required to design proper investigations of the universe, science itself is not in the business of creation. It objectively assesses things and tries to model and explain. God has never been a useful explanation for anything except to politicians and insurance assessors.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 30 2008,23:32) Hi theodorej You might be thinking of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that basically says you can either know where a particle is or know its speed but the more accurately you know one the less accurately you can know the other. This inherently arises with very small particles because you will naturally change the position or speed of the particle simply by attempting to measure it, say by bouncing a photon off it. The macroscopic world that we are familiar with is built on a sub-microscopic world that is completely counter-intuitive. You would have to point out to me what theological implications that might have. Bear in mind that I am yet to be convinced that theology (whatever it is) has any useful contribution to make to any field of human discovery.
Stuart
Stu. Even a man made picture is made up of pixels.Greetings Stu…..Politicians and insurance asessors are not the only ones who implore the acts of God as a reasonable explaination for unexplainable phenomenem or things that can't be prevented…Medical professionals for one regularly defer to God..(eg. miricles ) Rest assure it takes alot of courage and faith to stand for something…..people without spines stand for nothing…
Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 10 2008,09:02) Greetings Stu…..Politicians and insurance asessors are not the only ones who implore the acts of God as a reasonable explaination for unexplainable phenomenem or things that can't be prevented…Medical professionals for one regularly defer to God..(eg. miricles ) Rest assure it takes alot of courage and faith to stand for something…..people without spines stand for nothing…
I know. People who will not stand up to a brutal god are spineless!I'll grant you that science will often give 'don't know' as their best answer but can you give me one example of an event for which a reasonable explanation is 'god'? An explanation that is as good as one science might give, with a mechanism and explanation for exactly what divine phenomenon was at work?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 10 2008,18:32) Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 10 2008,09:02) Greetings Stu…..Politicians and insurance asessors are not the only ones who implore the acts of God as a reasonable explaination for unexplainable phenomenem or things that can't be prevented…Medical professionals for one regularly defer to God..(eg. miricles ) Rest assure it takes alot of courage and faith to stand for something…..people without spines stand for nothing…
I know. People who will not stand up to a brutal god are spineless!I'll grant you that science will often give 'don't know' as their best answer but can you give me one example of an event for which a reasonable explanation is 'god'? An explanation that is as good as one science might give, with a mechanism and explanation for exactly what divine phenomenon was at work?
Stuart
Greetings Stu…….I would have to say Peace of mind,Contentment,Joy….These are all present when one is in the perfect will of God…Iam sure when you look around,in this world…there are very few truly happy people….There are many who aspire to this state…..Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 15 2008,23:06) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 10 2008,18:32) Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 10 2008,09:02) Greetings Stu…..Politicians and insurance asessors are not the only ones who implore the acts of God as a reasonable explaination for unexplainable phenomenem or things that can't be prevented…Medical professionals for one regularly defer to God..(eg. miricles ) Rest assure it takes alot of courage and faith to stand for something…..people without spines stand for nothing…
I know. People who will not stand up to a brutal god are spineless!I'll grant you that science will often give 'don't know' as their best answer but can you give me one example of an event for which a reasonable explanation is 'god'? An explanation that is as good as one science might give, with a mechanism and explanation for exactly what divine phenomenon was at work?
Stuart
Greetings Stu…….I would have to say Peace of mind,Contentment,Joy….These are all present when one is in the perfect will of God…Iam sure when you look around,in this world…there are very few truly happy people….There are many who aspire to this state…..
These experiences are perfectly well explained without a god. Just ask psychologists about brain chemistry. They are the ones who can stimulate such feelings in their patients and explain the results. I reject gods of all kinds and I experience these same things.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 18 2008,08:24) Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 15 2008,23:06) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 10 2008,18:32) Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 10 2008,09:02) Greetings Stu…..Politicians and insurance asessors are not the only ones who implore the acts of God as a reasonable explaination for unexplainable phenomenem or things that can't be prevented…Medical professionals for one regularly defer to God..(eg. miricles ) Rest assure it takes alot of courage and faith to stand for something…..people without spines stand for nothing…
I know. People who will not stand up to a brutal god are spineless!I'll grant you that science will often give 'don't know' as their best answer but can you give me one example of an event for which a reasonable explanation is 'god'? An explanation that is as good as one science might give, with a mechanism and explanation for exactly what divine phenomenon was at work?
Stuart
Greetings Stu…….I would have to say Peace of mind,Contentment,Joy….These are all present when one is in the perfect will of God…Iam sure when you look around,in this world…there are very few truly happy people….There are many who aspire to this state…..
These experiences are perfectly well explained without a god. Just ask psychologists about brain chemistry. They are the ones who can stimulate such feelings in their patients and explain the results. I reject gods of all kinds and I experience these same things.Stuart
Greetings Stu…..Notwithstanding an altered state by use of drugs…..I have to say a content,contrite and happy/joyous spirit is what creates the harmony with the chemical make of the human being…..If you look at the science of physcology,and I might add it is a young science,the only validity it holds on to is, by use of mind altering drugs it is able to create euphoria….The science cannot claim one cure only the ability to treat…..Any intelligent human being can fool a phychiatrist/physcologist simply because the human mind has the ability to morph itself into any personality it wants….Hi theodorej
I think you might find that neuroscience is a little more sophisticated than your characterisation above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience#Major_branches
You can instill (religious? supernatural?) feelings just with subsounds:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3087674.stm
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 19 2008,09:46) Hi theodorej I think you might find that neuroscience is a little more sophisticated than your characterisation above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience#Major_branches
You can instill (religious? supernatural?) feelings just with subsounds:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3087674.stm
Stuart
Greetings Stu…..Thanks for heads up,and I must say,nueroscience is indeed quite complex and certainly beyond my intellect….With reference to the multitude of studies and the vast amount information available, which Iam sure has been acquired through varios experiments on primates and perhaps human beings….the use of mind altering drugs is still the principle means used to acquire this infomation….Greetings Stu…..The article on the sound therepy specifically organ muscic may create the eurphoria or illusion of spirituallity….If you examine many pagan practices you will see that chimes,bells and chanting are used to create a euphoric sense as well,and sometimes incense is used as a catalyst also.
Hi theodorej
I'm not sure how you conclude that mind-altering drugs are the principle means of aquiring information about the workings of the human brain. I presume you have heard of magnetic resonance imaging techniques and maniulation during brain surgery, to name two.
It is very interesting what techniques people use to induce euphoric states in others and themselves. An endorphin-releasing Sunday morning run may have exactly the same effect as sitting in church and praying. Both are very convincing to the subject. Can we confidently conclude that we are not being deluded in our imaginings of the supernatural?
Stuart
Greetings Stu….You are correct….mind altering drugs are not the only means for creating a eurphoric state….My feeling is there should be no delusion with respect to the supernatural,it has been proven many times to be a very valid and a real phenomonon….Supernatural occurances sometimes are call miracles…or some other scientific equivalent….
Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 23 2008,00:58) Greetings Stu….You are correct….mind altering drugs are not the only means for creating a eurphoric state….My feeling is there should be no delusion with respect to the supernatural,it has been proven many times to be a very valid and a real phenomonon….Supernatural occurances sometimes are call miracles…or some other scientific equivalent….
Sorry that doesn't wash with me. There is no good evidence for anything supernatural. There is plenty of evidence that as part of its normal efficient working the brain creates a world that does not necessarily exist (we could not function otherwise).The claim that there have been 'miracles' (ie: temporary localised suspension of scientific laws) has never been verified to the kind of standard even a local court would requre in a legal case.
Stuart
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