Heaven Net on god as a crutch

Participant

We've had this conversation before.

I believe in GOD

And you don't

I'm not going to convince you that I'm right obviously by now

and your not going to convince me that your right obviously by now.

So what then is your plan…? But to start and uprising?

I've seen these cases …just like when I was in school…the “Bully” just wants to keep poking you to see how long it is before you “Flip-Out”

Thats the same way the devil does Christians. Or people that believe there is a GOD.

I'm just going to keep telling you that I don't believe you.
From here till Jesus comes back

And that is what most Christians will tell you as well.

You already know this.
I as a Christian can not stand by and watch some one tell another person that there is not GOD.

People use the word “Christian” to point out all the things that “Corrupt” so called other people that were also labeled Christians did. To run me down.

Thats the same thing as some one coming up to me and saying that I'm the say way all the other people of my “Race” are based on my “Races” background.

Its wrong.

Its a lie. In all the lame brained science that I've ever seen in my life. All of it ends up proving GOD to be right.

Stephen Hawkins used to not believe in GOD I believe that I read somewhere then one day for some reason all of his science ended up proving to him that there is a GOD.

All the movies of people that don't believe in GOD or statements of people that don't believe in GOD make me Laugh Out Loud really.

Its like they have not even read the bible. They don't even know what it says.

Then they turn right around and proceed to proving a prophecy in the Bible to be correct…in fact they prove it to be VERY ON TARGET!

How do you explain stuff like that? You know I had some acid trippin' knuckle head tell me one time that someone went back in time and planted the Bible.

Are you kidding me?

What a lame blame attempt at trying to de-bunk GOD.

You know what …Keep telling yourself that.

I know you can't see it now, but one day you will.

And according to your belief I'll never have to “See” anything that one day I'll just die and that will be the end of it…if thats the case …whats the big deal then?

Its not like I'm going to “Lose” anything either way is it?

Living for GOD is a GREAT life even if there were no heaven.

Smoking kills you you don't need to do it anyway
Drinking Kills you you don't need to do it anyway
Going to bars is a waste of money causes you to pick up girls to have sex with them that give you aids and you die.
So I don't need that.

Anything you say that Christians do …I can justify even still, as being a good way to live your life.

Not having a T.V. well according to Zeitgeist the T.V. is lying to you anyway…so why do you need one?

Women dressing pervocative…do you want your wife dressing like that? Would you have your daughter dresses like that?

Whats wrong with having people tell the truth all the time?
Trying to do the right thing all the time?
What are you offended by GOD for? Something must be working on you. There is not reason to hate a GOD that you don't believe in anyway is there?
Does it make you feel insecure that people in the world believe in GOD? Why?

If you don't believe in GOD what difference does it make to you?
Whats your motive?

What would be the goal for convincing someone that there was no GOD?

Other than to condemn their soul to hell?
Ok then so whats the big deal?

There is not one.

Other than the fact that you want me to deny my Saviour…

Not going to happen
Not today
Not tomorrow
Not Next week
Not ever

Its not going to ever happen ever.

never ever
I want do it.

never
never
never
you'll have to kill me first…and then I still won't do it.
The devil is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I feel like that day may be coming though.
Which is why I pray every day and read my bible every day. Which is what I have to do now.

Later.

March 26, 2008 at 8:51 am#84888

Participant

Hi Samuel (Part 1)

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…and your not going to convince me that your right obviously by now.
So what then is your plan…? But to start and uprising?

I can’t speak for kejonn, but I don’t preach to anyone. Of what doctrine would I try and convince you? I am anti-doctrine. I do think you should think critically for yourself. That is a process of education, not indoctrination. I am interested in the conversation that goes ‘I believe in god because…’, which is followed by a convincing argument. Few arguments here are convincing.

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I as a Christian can not stand by and watch some one tell another person that there is not GOD.

So you have a shared emotion with someone who cannot stand by when someone claims that living things are designed.

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People use the word “Christian” to point out all the things that “Corrupt” so called other people that were also labeled Christians did. To run me down. Thats the same thing as some one coming up to me and saying that I'm the say way all the other people of my “Race” are based on my “Races” background.

You should not take it so personally. Look at what that has done to the islamic world. I do not aim my scorn for uncritical belief at you alone. There are 2.1 billion others who I also consider to have missed the point of life.

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Its a lie. In all the lame brained science that I've ever seen in my life. All of it ends up proving GOD to be right Stephen Hawkins used to not believe in GOD I believe that I read somewhere then one day for some reason all of his science ended up proving to him that there is a GOD..

Not sure what science you mean there Samuel. I would like to see a reference for the religiosity of Stephen Hawking. Not that it is important, but I think you might be believing a lie there yourself.

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All the movies of people that don't believe in GOD or statements of people that don't believe in GOD make me Laugh Out Loud really.

OK. What is your attitude to all those who are trapped in a domestic situation that simply assumes they believe as you do, and in fact there is considerable social pressure to suppress their true non-belief? Does the atheist’s scorn for christian belief justify the christian’s shock when people (like kejonn, I imagine) pluck up the courage to tell their friends and family that they don’t believe? Do these people too not deserve role models?

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Its like they have not even read the bible. They don't even know what it says.

That is a fair point to make, but you know what? I have been exposed to more and more scripture posting here in the past eight months, and rather than being convinced of it’s insights I am appalled by it’s lack of understanding of humanity and paucity of compassion.

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That movie Zeitgeist for example which is getting a super huge rise out of People that don't believe in GOD simply because of how they go to all that trouble to prove how the stars are to blame for all of this. Then they turn right around and proceed to proving a prophecy in the Bible to be correct…in fact they prove it to be VERY ON TARGET!

(From Wikipedia): Arizona Daily Wildcat refers to the film as “internet bullshit” saying that “witty sayings, fear tactics and a cool, assertive air all enable them to convince the unwitting public of their points”. The Irish Times called it “unhinged” and accused it of offering nothing but “surreal perversions of genuine issues and debates”.

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How do you explain stuff like that? You know I had some acid trippin' knuckle head tell me one time that someone went back in time and planted the Bible. Are you kidding me? What a lame blame attempt at trying to de-bunk GOD. You know what …Keep telling yourself that.

I’m no fan of conspiracy theories. I think that ironically the reason humans like conspiracy theories (our faulty pattern-finding skills) is the same reason that religion appeals to so many.

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And according to your belief I'll never have to “See” anything that one day I'll just die and that will be the end of it…if thats the case …whats the big deal then? Its not like I'm going to “Lose” anything either way is it?

Well that could be true, except if you live a life that does not have the richness it might have without faith. I think there is a particular tendency for some christians to miss out on some of the most astonishing mysteries because they are told that science is bad and they try and avoid gaining a scientific understanding. From my perspective the two greatest goals in life are to use this brief slice of history we each have to try and understand something of the universe, and to try and work out how our fellow humans function. You quote Pascal’s Wager. I personally think having a bob each way is one of the most demeaning ways of approaching life. Live in half-fear, and never commit to a vision. Not a good philosophy to hold, I feel. Would it impress god, do you think?

Stuart

March 26, 2008 at 9:16 am#84889

Participant

Hi Samuel (Part 2)

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Living for GOD is a GREAT life even if there were no heaven.

Why not live for the increased happiness of your own experience and for others around you? Why live for something you cannot know? Why sweat for a jealous god?

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Smoking kills you you don't need to do it anyway Drinking Kills you you don't need to do it anyway
Going to bars is a waste of money causes you to pick up girls to have sex with them that give you aids and you die.
So I don't need that.

Neither do I. I don’t do any of these things (except drink the occasional beer).

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Anything you say that Christians do …I can justify even still, as being a good way to live your life.

Bomb abortion clinics? Slaughter muslims in the crusades? Ban potentially life-saving research that requires embryonic cells? Oppress gay and lesbian people? Pressure people to not use contraception? These are all things done by self-proclaimed christians.

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Not having a T.V. well according to Zeitgeist the T.V. is lying to you anyway…so why do you need one?

You don’t need one. Unless you are a child growing up in a fundamentalist household where the only access to information is through your pastor. Then you really do need access to a TV, much as it pains me to write it!

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Whats wrong with having people tell the truth all the time? Trying to do the right thing all the time?

An important concept for human development is that it is not always the right thing to tell the truth.

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What are you offended by GOD for? Something must be working on you. There is not reason to hate a GOD that you don't believe in anyway is there?

The Judeo-christian god is the most miserable and despicable fictional character in history. Name another who has admitted killing between 2,000,000 and 32,000,000 people. His violence is indiscriminate and he makes up rules almost at random (see Genesis and the consequences of eating the fruit, for one such example). Why would you worship such a monster? I am happy that there is no such being.

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Does it make you feel insecure that people in the world believe in GOD? Why?

People believing things without evidence can scare me. I would far rather walk home with a group who had drunk a bit too much and smelled of smoke from the pub than a group of devout islamicists who had come away sober from a prayer meeting.

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If you don't believe in GOD what difference does it make to you? Whats your motive?

Finding out the truth about the universe. Working out what makes people tick.

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What would be the goal for convincing someone that there was no GOD?

That is not my goal, although it may be my effect. I don’t expect to convince people of dogmas, I expect to give them pause for thought.

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Other than to condemn their soul to hell? quote]
I don’t believe there is any such thing as a ‘soul’, so I’m not condemning it to anywhere! I know your holy book tells you that I am the devil talking. Of course I deny that, but you will have to judge that claim for yourself based on what you know of me.

Other than the fact that you want me to deny my Saviour…Not going to happen Not today Not tomorrow Not Next week Not ever Its not going to ever happen ever. never ever I want do it. never never never you'll have to kill me first…and then I still won't do it. The devil is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I don’t want you to deny anything. All I hope is that you have pause to consider what it is that you believe. I do think your faith deserves to die if it is weak or an encumbrance, but that is up to you. I would like to know why you think you need to be saved. I don’t think you do.

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I feel like that day may be coming though.
Which is why I pray every day and read my bible every day. Which is what I have to do now.

If you are at a point where you have to do these things then you must. The fact that you reply to non-believers does mean that you have to some extent thought critically and that is better than quite a few here do.

Stuart

March 26, 2008 at 1:47 pm#84898

Participant

Stephens wife is a Christian. So I read anyways.
He him self also made this statement:

“Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.”

His book “A brief History in time” does not but talk about GOD from beginning to end.

Genisis 1 says this:

Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Its really odd that both Science and the bible now finally agree…would you not say so.

I mean how does science explain the fact the universe was created out of nothing? Einstien eve said that if there was a beginning then there must be a Creator. However, his belief was like yours he still wanted to fight it…So in the end he said a superior power or somthing like that.

Just the fact that the Universe…(thats ever thing we know about) came into existance from absoultly nothing…even Stephen Hawkings singularity theory states this…reveals the awesome power of GOD!

I mean its like wow! Whats more funny is that these scientific facts are being made by people that refused to believe in GOD. By the RealColors these people are “Greens”
Every thing has to be explained for them…if they don't have enough “Data” then they can't make a descision.

I'm a “Blue” with some “Orange” in me. All my impulsive acts are based off emotion…or “Feel” How I feel at the time.
Emotions drive my life…which is probably one of the reasons that I can Believe in GOD so easily…another intersting fact is that only like 8% of the whole world is “Blue”.
Most of the world is Either Gold which is the most I think…they have to have everything in a structure, Green We've already disscused those, and Orange…they are your “Get 'R' Done!” folks…they like to live life in the “Fast-Lane” …and have a problem with structure and authority.

In order to be open minded…you have to look at all aspects of the whatever it is your talking about. In this case GOD. Yes, Satan has very throughly tried to convence me there is no GOD. I've seen (what I call the facts, mainly its because I experiance the Holy Ghost…had a whole lot to do with “Sealing” the deal…I believed in GOD before that though.) for myself. Satan has thrown some good ones out there though…Evolution, Physce…to just plain old there is no evidence…which are all lies.
All the evidence that I see that “Proves” GOD…most people that don't believe in GOD can somehow find a way to De-Bunk them…I believe thats just them not wanting to see the possibility that there is a GOD…I think its a lot to do with “Fear” that they will have then been wrong.

And Humans don't like to be “Wrong” We just hate to be proven wrong. We can't stand it.

Being as how you can provide me with no factual evidence the GOD does not exist…Which I don't believe that anyone will ever be able to do that without lying.

Einstien hatefully resented the “Big Bang Theory” and made a way to “Fudge” his caculations…and then in the end …ended up stateing that it was his biggest mistake in his career.

We all know we are not “Just here” out of “Nothing” for “Nothing”

We all by “Default” know whats right and wrong…even animals do. Even animals in the wild do.

Weather you chose to believe in GOD or not is up to you…he made you so that you had the option to choose that very thing.

If he wanted you to be “Made” to believe in him…you would probably not be a Human…you'd probably be an Angel.
They don't have an option…

Now I know whats coming next…lol “Well look at Satan he was supposed to be an Angel. What happened there?”

Honestly…I don't know. I know he fell from what he was.
And he tried to overthrow GOD.
Which as we can see …or as Dr. Phil might say …”Hows that workin' out for ya?”…well we all know that it didn't work out quite so well for him don't we.

I don't understand everthing about GOD…I can't explain every thing in “Detail” about him to you or for you.

Romans in the bible says this:

Romans 11:33-36 (King James Version)

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I do know that he put us here…that he Loves us…that he wants us to Love him. And, that we do have that choice.

Yeah…the label “Christian” has a bad rep…which is why I really don't like to use that word. Although I do believe in Jesus Christ…I would much perfer to be called:
A “Believer” that Struggles.

Darwin was wrong…Fruad was Wrong. Most of the main “Ammo” the athiests has has been proven wrong.

I don't know of the Bible ever being proven to be “Wrong” about anything.

People try to all the time…but they always fail to do so. Its rather ironic would you not think so?

March 26, 2008 at 7:14 pm#84906

Participant

Hi again Samuel

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Stephens wife is a Christian. So I read anyways. He him self also made this statement:
“Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.” His book “A brief History in time” does not but talk about GOD from beginning to end.

Hawking’s model of the appearance of matter is that it arose through the expansion of space-time; that we are made of borrowed gravitational energy that is converted to matter by E=mc2. No mention of any gods there. You must understand that Hawking uses the word god metaphorically, in the way the Einstein did. Hawking uses it ironically as well. Einstein did not believe in personal gods and neither does Hawking.
See http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Stephen_Hawking for more of this kind of statement.

If Hawking or Dawkins or any atheist were to convert to a devout christian belief it would make about as much difference as the pope or the archbishop of Canterbury abandoning their faith altogether. Individuals’ opinions do not affect whether christianity is true or not.

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Genisis 1 says this:
Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Its really odd that both Science and the bible now finally agree…would you not say so.

Are you telling me that there was a period in history when humans lived for hundreds of years; that pairs of all animals (that is in the millions of individuals) fitted onto a single boat then escaped to populate the earth without leaving any trail of what must have been an impossibly hazardous journey; that plants were created before there was sunlight for them to photosynthesize; that there is a solid ‘firmament’ above the earth (that no spacecraft has ever crashed into); that language diversified instantly at one point in history?… I could go on. None of these things agree with modern science.

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See above for how the universe arose from nothing. As for the rest of it, sorry, that’s not how it went.

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How does it do that??

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I mean its like wow! Whats more funny is that these scientific facts are being made by people that refused to believe in GOD.

So are you saying Hawking believes in god or not?

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Give me one piece of evidence that demonstrates that biological evolution is a ‘lie’.

If you are open-minded you will concede the possibility that there is no god. I reserve a tiny chink for the possibility that there is such a thing. All the evidence contradicts it though.

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All the evidence that I see that “Proves” GOD…most people that don't believe in GOD can somehow find a way to De-Bunk them…I believe thats just them not wanting to see the possibility that there is a GOD…I think its a lot to do with “Fear” that they will have then been wrong.

It doesn’t bother me particularly. If you are right and I face up to some judgement day, I hope to have the energy to present the case for the prosecution of the Celestial Tyrant that you worship. Isn’t that what justice demands? It won’t happen though, because it is all make-believe.

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And Humans don't like to be “Wrong” We just hate to be proven wrong. We can't stand it.

Sure. It is not easy. But I do like to be proven wrong because I learn more that way.

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Being as how you can provide me with no factual evidence the GOD does not exist…Which I don't believe that anyone will ever be able to do that without lying.

You claim that god exists. The burden of proof is on you yet you provide no evidence that is not better explained without a god.

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Einstien hatefully resented the “Big Bang Theory” and made a way to “Fudge” his caculations…and then in the end …ended up stateing that it was his biggest mistake in his career.

Yes. The Big Bang theory is well supported by evidence. Much of it was discovered after his death.

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We all know we are not “Just here” out of “Nothing” for “Nothing”

If your brain must see a pattern there, then I suppose you see a god. Buddhists don’t. Why are they wrong?

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We all by “Default” know whats right and wrong…even animals do. Even animals in the wild do.

.
I think you might find that last statement disagreeing with the bible. I agree with you though that all animals, including us, have a hard-wired morality/set of behaviours that is modified by our upbringing and environment.

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Weather you chose to believe in GOD or not is up to you…he made you so that you had the option to choose that very thing.

Or natural selection has given you the ability to believe as the byproduct of something advantageous.

Stuart

March 26, 2008 at 7:20 pm#84907

Participant

Hi again Samuel

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Darwin was wrong…Fruad was Wrong. Most of the main “Ammo” the athiests has has been proven wrong.

I don’t know enough about Freud to comment.

Darwin was right. There is no question about it. Evolution is fact. I don’t see that as ‘ammo’. It just is the truth. Shouldn’t the truth win no matter what it turns out to be?

Stuart

March 27, 2008 at 1:19 am#84937

Participant

Hi Stu,
You say
“Evolution is our best explanation for the variety of species present on earth. There is no reasonable conclusion to be made from the fact of evolution about responsibility or judgement. “

Umm.
How does
BEST EXPLANATION
become
FACT
in two lines?

That is a fast form of evolution

March 27, 2008 at 3:50 am#84955

Participant

I disagree.

March 27, 2008 at 6:41 am#84962

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,13:19)

Umm.
How does
BEST EXPLANATION
become
FACT
in two lines?

That is a fast form of evolution

It is a pity you did not look further afield to what else I wrote.

A fact is something that has been so well demonstrated that it would be perverse to deny it. That applies to evolution by natural selection. I agree it understate the case to say it is our 'best explanation'. Actually it is our only explanation.

Stuart

March 27, 2008 at 6:46 am#84963

Participant

Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 27 2008,15:50)

I disagree.

Do you disagree with Darwin, or with the idea that the truth should win?

If you disagree with Darwin you need to show that he is wrong in his terms, not in yours.

Stuart

March 27, 2008 at 6:55 am#84965

Participant

Hi Stu,
Talk to Darwin about this FACT.
He only presented it as an possible theory.
But men are enamoured on anything that denies their own creation came from a divine action of God on dirt.

March 27, 2008 at 7:15 am#84967

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,18:55)

Hi Stu,
Talk to Darwin about this FACT.
He only presented it as an possible theory.
But men are enamoured on anything that denies their own creation came from a divine action of God on dirt.

No, Darwin presented it as the fact it is. It is the only theory we have.

'Men' want the truth. Do you?

Stuart

March 27, 2008 at 7:21 am#84968

Participant

Hi Stu,
If you only have one theory then hey who can disbelieve your gospel.
There are older more reliable writings.
They do not evolve.

March 27, 2008 at 7:44 am#84969

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,19:21)

Hi Stu,
If you only have one theory then hey who can disbelieve your gospel.
There are older more reliable writings.
They do not evolve.

There is only one theory that accounts for the diversity of life including the fossil record and the DNA record. It is not gospel. You are welcome to propose an alternative theory if you have one. But you don't.

Stuart

March 27, 2008 at 8:02 am#84972

Participant

Hi Stu,
So if it seems to fit? Voila!
It will have to do.

The alternative that God is
cannot be contemplated by reasonable men?

March 27, 2008 at 8:56 am#84979

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,20:02)

Hi Stu,
So if it seems to fit? Voila!
It will have to do.

The alternative that God is
cannot be contemplated by reasonable men?

“That god is”?? Is that your fully falsifyable, predictive theory of speciation, complete with universal support by evidence? How would a reasonable woman contemplate that with a straight face?

Stuart

March 27, 2008 at 10:13 pm#85006