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Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,18:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,18:24) I guess there is much to be said for personal experience. It is something that you can't really argue. It is what it is. I remember one time in college having a debate with an atheist, we were exchanging ideas and I shared some personal experiences I had with God. He got so mad that he slammed his hand down on the table. I remember just smiling at him as he shouted, “I can't argue with personal experience!” I wasn't sure why he was so mad? Was it because he hadn't any personal experience with God and wanted some? Or was it because he thought I was a liar? Anyway, I never got the chance to ask him because he got up and left……
That is a shame. Your non-believing interlocuter missed the chance to ask you how you verify that the communication you percieve is coming from outside your own brain.Stuart
Because others have verified the information as being true.Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,18:33) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,18:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,18:24) I guess there is much to be said for personal experience. It is something that you can't really argue. It is what it is. I remember one time in college having a debate with an atheist, we were exchanging ideas and I shared some personal experiences I had with God. He got so mad that he slammed his hand down on the table. I remember just smiling at him as he shouted, “I can't argue with personal experience!” I wasn't sure why he was so mad? Was it because he hadn't any personal experience with God and wanted some? Or was it because he thought I was a liar? Anyway, I never got the chance to ask him because he got up and left……
That is a shame. Your non-believing interlocuter missed the chance to ask you how you verify that the communication you percieve is coming from outside your own brain.Stuart
Because others have verified the information as being true.
I'm not sure what you mean. How do others verify what you hear?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,21:42) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,18:33) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,18:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,18:24) I guess there is much to be said for personal experience. It is something that you can't really argue. It is what it is. I remember one time in college having a debate with an atheist, we were exchanging ideas and I shared some personal experiences I had with God. He got so mad that he slammed his hand down on the table. I remember just smiling at him as he shouted, “I can't argue with personal experience!” I wasn't sure why he was so mad? Was it because he hadn't any personal experience with God and wanted some? Or was it because he thought I was a liar? Anyway, I never got the chance to ask him because he got up and left……
That is a shame. Your non-believing interlocuter missed the chance to ask you how you verify that the communication you percieve is coming from outside your own brain.Stuart
Because others have verified the information as being true.
I'm not sure what you mean. How do others verify what you hear?Stuart
Perhaps the information that I receive from God concerning an individual is private and no one has been privy to that specific information. Then this individual knows that I have heard from God and have a message especially from them.Again, this has only happened a few times in my life. To tell you the truth, I pray for it to happen more! It's a beautiful way God expresses his care, concern, encouragement and love to his kids.
For instance, if you had a deep dark secret, let's say, and God gives me this word of knowledge concerning you and this secret……would you wonder how I knew your secret? And what if I told you that God revealed it to me? Would you believe me? Would you have any other choice?
Of course you could say that psychic's have similar experiences and what they say and predict strikes a chord in some and often their so-called predictions come true. I suppose you will ask what the difference is between what a psychic does and what I claim the LORD does through me on ocassion? My only answer would be that the individual who hears the word has a confirmation in their spirit from God that it is true and genuinely from him. You may say this is bogus and no real proof at all that the two are any different; and I suppose you would be correct. But you must realize that for some, this confirmation in their spirit is all the proof that they need.
To fully understand this my dear friend, you need to have a real experience with the Almighty Creator! I believe that encounter with God would not be too far off if you had a sliver of faith.
Have you ever wondered why tons of people follow and love God regardless of all the killings and all the things you have pointed out about God that are negative? Tons of people cannot all just have peas for brains! There are smarty-pants like yourself who follow God and love him – even if they do not fully understand him. Do you know why? They have met him, they have had a personal experience with their Creator. Once this happens, there is no denying that He Is. You may question everything (as I am doing), but you cannot deny him once you have met him. That would be impossible for those who truly love him. Simply impossible.
I'm rambling….must be the cough syrup!
Take care Stu,
MandyHi Not3in1
Quote For instance, if you had a deep dark secret, let's say, and God gives me this word of knowledge concerning you and this secret……would you wonder how I knew your secret? And what if I told you that God revealed it to me? Would you believe me? Would you have any other choice? Of course you could say that psychic's have similar experiences and what they say and predict strikes a chord in some and often their so-called predictions come true. I suppose you will ask what the difference is between what a psychic does and what I claim the LORD does through me on ocassion? My only answer would be that the individual who hears the word has a confirmation in their spirit from God that it is true and genuinely from him. You may say this is bogus and no real proof at all that the two are any different; and I suppose you would be correct. But you must realize that for some, this confirmation in their spirit is all the proof that they need.
Psychics have many techniques such as cold reading that make people think some special, perhaps ‘secret’ knowledge has been inexplicably revealed back to them. Do you actually know anything that I would consider to be secret that I have kept to myself? ‘Confirmation in the spirit’ I think to be a self-deception; people will believe all sorts of things, accountable by perfectly natural explanations. Has a believer ever had revelation of the kind that a non-believer could not possibly have? What difference is there? One attributes some ideas to creative imagination while another attributes it to the words of a being of whose existence he has convinced himself.Quote To fully understand this my dear friend, you need to have a real experience with the Almighty Creator! I believe that encounter with God would not be too far off if you had a sliver of faith.
Why should such knowledge depend on suspending my understanding of the universe? I would have to stop believing things I can see are true in order to adopt this strange thing you call faith. Am I looking for some psychological effect where I allow a fantasy world to take over my perception?Quote Have you ever wondered why tons of people follow and love God regardless of all the killings and all the things you have pointed out about God that are negative? Tons of people cannot all just have peas for brains! There are smarty-pants like yourself who follow God and love him – even if they do not fully understand him. Do you know why?
Yes. Religion is a psychological effect. It would seem from research that is still in its infancy that such belief has a genetic basis. Some people are more likely to believe than others, and I find it striking that the rate of disbelief is almost universally about 25-30%. This suggests to me a strong genetic link. Add the fact that, as you say, no-one ‘understands him’ and it is clear that people are investing faith in something that is not real. If it were real, shouldn’t it be expected to be much more explicitly understood?Quote They have met him, they have had a personal experience with their Creator. Once this happens, there is no denying that He Is. You may question everything (as I am doing), but you cannot deny him once you have met him. That would be impossible for those who truly love him. Simply impossible.
I wonder then how you account for people who unquestionably have been devout and genuine in their belief who have since turned their backs on it and deny that there ever was anything. Are they dishonest? Are they cured? Let us not forget too the Branch Davidians and all the others who have been unquestionably duped in their religion. If they can be so deluded, who can we say are the deluded and who are the sane ones? I put my benchmark on empirical science, which is dependent to some degree on perception, but is also universally independent of delusion.Stuart
Quote I put my benchmark on empirical science, which is dependent to some degree on perception, but is also universally independent of delusion.
Science has had it's share of false beliefs! I wouldn't be so quick to put my benchmark on something that continues to evolve and change with the times.Quote I would have to stop believing things I can see are true in order to adopt this strange thing you call faith.
So only the things you can “see” are true? I beg to differ, there are plenty of things that we cannot see that remain true even though we can not experience them for ourselves in any fashion.I suppose you are a child who needs proof, and there's nothing wrong with that. I will pray that somehow God will prove himself to you. I know that he increases my faith through miracles and his presence in my life, so I will pray that he will meet you where you are and reveal himself to you! After all, that is all you are really asking for here isn't it? For proof of God? I pray that you will get it!
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 10 2008,18:06) I wonder then how you account for people who unquestionably have been devout and genuine in their belief who have since turned their backs on it and deny that there ever was anything.
I don't believe such a person ever really turns his back on God or truly denies that he exists. They may be mad at God and so go on to deny him or rally around those who profess he is a farse – but they will never really belong to that group fully. I call these folks angry atheists.There is a difference, I believe, between an atheist and an angry atheist. One has just never believed in God, while the other has once believed but then become angry with God, and ultimately refuses to bend his knee any longer. I've met both types.
Hi again Not3in1
Quote Science has had it's share of false beliefs! I wouldn't be so quick to put my benchmark on something that continues to evolve and change with the times.
Science finds out quickly when it is wrong. Religions usually blindly carry on in the face of contradictory evidence, usually until such time as it is no longer politically possibly to maintain the bluff. It seems to still be possible for fundies in the US to carry on the large-scale fraud that is creationism, but the Catholic church can no longer pretend that Galileo had it wrong. Creationism has been shown to be wrong for 150 years. Galileo has been right for the last 300 years.It is a matter of who you think has the best quality of information. Science has the best quality control system, and science works. Religion has no legitimate control of quality and almost all the time does not do what it says it can do.
Stu:I would have to stop believing things I can see are true in order to adopt this strange thing you call faith.
Quote So only the things you can “see” are true? I beg to differ, there are plenty of things that we cannot see that remain true even though we can not experience them for ourselves in any fashion.
I think people think that is true, but I have never met anyone who can actually name or describe one such thing.Quote I suppose you are a child who needs proof, and there's nothing wrong with that. I will pray that somehow God will prove himself to you.
There is the first problem. Intercessory prayer does not work. I am sure plenty of people have prayed for me, and yet I do not hear little voices or anything inexplicable in natural terms. You do not have to go by my anecdote though, plenty of research has found time and time again that prayer has no effect above the margin of error, or the effect of a placebo. Secondly, I don’t need proof. I am happy enough with any evidence that disproves any of the scientific models that I claim explain things in natural terms. There is none, otherwise the scientific model would have changed by now.Quote I know that he increases my faith through miracles and his presence in my life, so I will pray that he will meet you where you are and reveal himself to you! After all, that is all you are really asking for here isn't it? For proof of God? I pray that you will get it!
I am curious about what you think constitutes a miracle. I also wonder why you have to have faith, if god has demonstrated himself to you without question. Doesn’t awareness of his presence diminish your faith and increase your evidence-based knowledge of him?Stuart
Hi Not3in1
Stu:I wonder then how you account for people who unquestionably have been devout and genuine in their belief who have since turned their backs on it and deny that there ever was anything.
Quote I don't believe such a person ever really turns his back on God or truly denies that he exists. They may be mad at God and so go on to deny him or rally around those who profess he is a farse – but they will never really belong to that group fully. I call these folks angry atheists. There is a difference, I believe, between an atheist and an angry atheist. One has just never believed in God, while the other has once believed but then become angry with God, and ultimately refuses to bend his knee any longer. I've met both types. As atheists ‘know’ there is no god, isn’t the person you call an angry atheist actually an angry christian? There are websites out there that document deconversions. I do not personally vouch for the authenticity of the stories but having met deconvertees myself, what is written in this one is completely consistent:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/be/list.html
The story told by ‘JB’, a 23-year christian and about as genuine and even-handed as you could imagine:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/be/be16.html
I think is well summarised by this quote from it:
I was a true believer, but I lost faith because the FAITH ITSELF was in error.Stuart
Thanks for the last weblink, I read the entire exchange.
I also can relate to some of it having been raised in the church and spending a great deal of time studying the bible. I also relate to the questioning of faith, trying to hang on to faith, and the loss of faith. I've had conversations with pastor's that have gone somewhat like JB's experience.
But there's something that always brings me back……something that won't let me let go of God. I may be able to let go of certain dogma's and even that the bible is the only “truth” out there, but I cannot let go of knowing God exists.
I feel him here in my beating heart. I hear him in the sound of my children's steady breathing at night. When the trees dance in heavy wind, and the waves crash upon their boundries, I know he is there. When fear of death grips me and comfort comes, I know it is not a matter of great imagination; no, it is devine intervention. For how can a heavy heart console itself? I don't have to believe it all, but I do believe in Him. Oh, yes, he is real to me.
He is as real to me as he is imaginary to you.
Hi Not3in1
I think there are very many people capable of consoling their own sadness; I'm not saying there is not value in another being a consoling influence but I think god-consoling is the same as self-consoling.
You interpret things you observe in terms of a god. Most of what you write above is pantheistic, but some is theistic. I am sure you have been avoiding pigeonholes as much as you can, and I concur, but here is a pigeonhole to try for size:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2008,17:32) Why is it a pigeonhole?
Do you identify completely with Panentheism?Stuart
Well, I confess that I'm pretty tired and I did read the whole thing but I'm not sure if I understood it all. I believe I gathered that Panentheism believes that God is in all. Is this correct?
I guess I would have to say that I don't believe that intirely because I don't believe God is in the evil things of the world. When I said I could see him in the waves, for instance, what I really meant is his power or his grace. Not that the waves were actually him.
Satan your a LIAR! And, the truth is not in you!
Get thee behind me Satan!
He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world.
You might decive many…but your not going to decive me.
Never
Nothing can come between me and my GOD.
And i'm not directing my post to any one person or their post.
I'm directing it to the spirit that Satan has employed on the people here that are trying to decive the creation of GOD.
Its a flat out lie from the pits of hell, and Satan has his reward…Just a little longer and this will all be over and everyo ne will see that:
Jesus is Lord…every tongue will confess…and every knee shall bow.
Your shinny sharp drooling teeth don't scare me one bit. To get to me you have to come through Jesus…and we all already know that you can't do that.
Hi Samuel
Wow. Have you just come from a revivalist meeting?
Did satan get behind you after you posted this?
Can you tell me exactly how many human beings satan killed in the whole of the Judeo-christian scripture? Is it anywhere near the 2,000,000 admitted by god?
Stuart
I said what needed to be said.
Going on to a Christian website trying to convince people not to be Christians is about like going in to a liquor store trying to convince people not to be alcoholics.
You must know that your not going to be able to deceive everyone….don't you?
You know telling the truth is easier than telling a lie.
And it makes you feel better too.Samuel,
Why are you so uptight about this? After all, non-Christians cannot post in many sections here. You are acting like someone who accepts a seat in the smoking section of a restaurant and then complains about the smoke (no pun intended). The best thing you and other offended Christians can do is avoid the sections that non-Christians post in.
Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 25 2008,17:36) I said what needed to be said. Going on to a Christian website trying to convince people not to be Christians is about like going in to a liquor store trying to convince people not to be alcoholics.
Not the bet analogy IMHO .Quote You must know that your not going to be able to deceive everyone….don't you?
How is it deceit to speak of your won beliefs (or lack thereof). If you went to a Muslim and shared the gospel, he might say you were trying to deceive him. Yet you wouldn't be would you? You'd just be telling him what you belief. No different than Stu or I.Don't forget that 2/3 of the world is not Christian. Thus, for every Christian who wholly believes in their personal theology, there is another human who beliefs wholly in whatever they believe. It has nothing to do with deceit.
Quote You know telling the truth is easier than telling a lie.
And it makes you feel better too.
Not if someone does not view what they believe to be a lie. Religion is like that sadly.
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