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Quote … Likewise I have experienced God in ways that you wouldn't believe if I told you.
I just don’t think that is true. Analyse anyone who can demonstrate extrordinary talent or insight and it is extremely rare not to find a straightforward explanation for that person’s abilities. Once again, I am sorry to tell you that although your life experiences may be remarkable, I don’t think anything has happened to you that cannot be explained by natural means.Quote But sure you might not believe my testimony and that is fine. Likewise if you haven't seen or tasted a fruit of that description, then being skeptical is only natural. But to say outrightly that such a fruit doesn't exit, is really an illogical and probably arrogant thing to say.
Yes probably arrogant. I am of the mind to challenge anyone who claims to have special insight. Saying ‘put up or shut up’ would be downright rude too, but so are many christians; that doesn’t make it right, but I don’t feel so bad about it!Quote The bottom line is that if you cannot disprove something, then you are allowed an opinion, but to shut out the possibility is surely limiting to your own pursuit of knowledge.
Absolutely. You have not been willing to say it, but can we take this as a tacit admission that you accept the possibility that there is no god?Quote Have you noticed that people who shut out possibilities, never usually attain those possibilities? History is full of incidences where men shut out possibilities and history judges them as ignoramuses.
The popes are an almost continuous series of such people.Quote The earth doesn't revolve around the sun. If man was meant to fly, God would have given us wings. Why should we buy Google, we don't need them. – Yahoo execs said this when they had the chance to buy Google. In fact Google offered Yahoo to invest in them and Yahoo turned them down.
I put “there is no God” in the same category, except to say it is a bigger blunder than all other blunders put together.
The really extrordinary thing is that people persist in denying evolution by natural selection, way beyond the point where they look stupid (ie: sometime in the late nineteenth century).Stu: I know there is a god called Zeus (you can't disprove it) who will get to you before your god does and will make you pay for your blasphemy.
Quote This argument is pointless because it is not about who is God, but that God exists or he doesn't.
Likewise we are not arguing about Piltdown man as being the missing link. Rather we are looking at Evolution and Creation. So every time you bring up Zues as some kind of argument that proves that there is no God, then also remember that you are doing the same as saying “Piltdown Man disproves all of Evolution”, which I am sure that you would not do.
You are denying Zeus (by comparing him to Piltdown Man) on the same grounds that I deny your god. That is the point of the Zeus argument. To believe things without evidence is to open yourself to the claims of any crackpot faiths; you have no honest, coherent defense against them.Stuart
Quote It is not scientific to set out to disprove something. An honest scientist will never deny the possibility that what he believes may not be so as he sets up his experiments. You should be an honest scientist if that is your basis of truth.
Very many experiments set out to disprove things, and succeed. The important property of any scientific idea (an hypothesis or especially a theory) is that of falsifiability. If someone were seen to fall up instead of down, the theory of gravity would be disproved. If we found matter not made of atoms, that would disprove the atomic theory, if we found mammal fossils in the oldest rocks that would disprove evolution. As you say, scientists investigate the possibility that they might be wrong.Quote It is not ours of course. We have come to know by faith certain things.
Have you questioned the comparative value of faith as a basis for belief?Quote The bible is the revelation of God and we love it and study it assiduously in that light.
You assume it is the revelation of god. Have you done any honest experiments of the kind you advocate above? How would you verify the alleged power of prayer?Stuart
Hi Stu,
Faith is not scientifically verifiable because the measure is human and of this world while the visible universe is a mere fraction of Creation. We have never seen angels but know they exist. We pray daily and see responses from our God in the resolution of difficulties in our situations of life.Jesus could have jumped from the top of the temple to prove the promise of God but he knew from Scripture that it is not of faith to test our God and he did not. Whatever is not of faith is of sin and we are careful not to sin.
Hi Stu,
Your response to this statement by another member shows extreme prejudice.Quote
… Likewise I have experienced God in ways that you wouldn't believe if I told you. ”
You replied.
“I just don’t think that is true. Analyse anyone who can demonstrate extrordinary talent or insight and it is extremely rare not to find a straightforward explanation for that person’s abilities. Once again, I am sorry to tell you that although your life experiences may be remarkable, I don’t think anything has happened to you that cannot be explained by natural means.”You have yet to hear of these experiences and yet are prepared to say that there will a reasonable natural explanation that can be found.
Why are you so closed minded if you say you are a scientist?
Hi Stu,
Intellectual strength is not something we claim to have because weakness is our eternal boast.
Knowledge of human matters lasts only till the next scientist has a theory, as you say.
So any hope that you can offer that such current knowledge that you may own
will help us become as strong as you claim to be, offers us nothing at all.Quote Faith is not scientifically verifiable because the measure is human and of this world while the visible universe is a mere fraction of Creation.
But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can. The truth claims made on the basis of faith can be tested. Most often they are shown to be the wrong naïve intuitive ideas held by humans programmed by natural selection to see patterns even where none exist.Quote We have never seen angels but know they exist.
You must be insane then.Quote We pray daily and see responses from our God in the resolution of difficulties in our situations of life.
You may well resolve difficulties as a result of meditating on them. That would be the sole value of prayer.Quote Jesus could have jumped from the top of the temple to prove the promise of God but he knew from Scripture that it is not of faith to test our God and he did not.
Why did Paul make Jesus out to be a miracle worker / illusionist if it was not necessary?Quote Whatever is not of faith is of sin and we are careful not to sin.
Then you don’t need saving.Stuart
Quote Your response to this statement by another member shows extreme prejudice.
Quote
… Likewise I have experienced God in ways that you wouldn't believe if I told you. ”
You replied.
“I just don’t think that is true. Analyse anyone who can demonstrate extrordinary talent or insight and it is extremely rare not to find a straightforward explanation for that person’s abilities. Once again, I am sorry to tell you that although your life experiences may be remarkable, I don’t think anything has happened to you that cannot be explained by natural means.”Quote You have yet to hear of these experiences and yet are prepared to say that there will a reasonable natural explanation that can be found. Why are you so closed minded if you say you are a scientist?
I am skeptical of those who make special pleadings. It is the job of science to be skeptical. I have read the kind of thing the poster of the quote above considers to be practical experience of the presence of god, and while it is indeed a remarkable story, it is very explainable in natural terms.I am surprised you have not tried claiming that the realm of god is indistinguishable from the natural world; that they are seamlessly one in the same; that god is in everything from us down to the strange world of quantum mechanics. I suppose that goes against the ‘made in his image’ dogma, but evolutionary theory has killed that idea anyway, so why not cut your losses and go for pantheism?
I have never said that I am a scientist, by the way.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You say
“But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can. “
So you do accept that there are matters that are invisible to our human eyes?
Are you eyes all that you can see with?
What of your insight?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2008,07:00) Hi Stu,
You say
“But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can. “
So you do accept that there are matters that are invisible to our human eyes?
Are you eyes all that you can see with?
What of your insight?
You make another strawman. I wrote:“But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can.”
There is nothing that you can see that in principle a non-believer cannot see. 'See' can mean insight and comprehension if you want it to.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,16:30) There is nothing that you can see that in principle a non-believer cannot see.
Physically speaking, this is true.However I do believe in spiritual insight. This is another way of saying that a person who has spiritual insight is given a broader view, perhaps. And given that view by God.
There have been a few times in my life where I believe God has made me privy to insightful things; things that other's were either oblivious to or did not (or could not) see.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,16:45) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,16:30) There is nothing that you can see that in principle a non-believer cannot see.
Physically speaking, this is true.However I do believe in spiritual insight. This is another way of saying that a person who has spiritual insight is given a broader view, perhaps. And given that view by God.
There have been a few times in my life where I believe God has made me privy to insightful things; things that other's were either oblivious to or did not (or could not) see.
Yes, there will always be insights that some don't have that others do, but I'm being more specific here by saying that there is no special insight that you get purely because you believe in the supernatural. I am competely skeptical of a believer knowing anything that a non-believer could not possibly know.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,16:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2008,07:00) Hi Stu,
You say
“But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can. “
So you do accept that there are matters that are invisible to our human eyes?
Are you eyes all that you can see with?
What of your insight?
You make another strawman. I wrote:“But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can.”
There is nothing that you can see that in principle a non-believer cannot see. 'See' can mean insight and comprehension if you want it to.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
So no man has more insight than any other?Yes you could gain understanding as we have
by believing in what the bible says.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2008,17:14) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,16:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2008,07:00) Hi Stu,
You say
“But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can. “
So you do accept that there are matters that are invisible to our human eyes?
Are you eyes all that you can see with?
What of your insight?
You make another strawman. I wrote:“But you can’t see the invisible bit any better than I can.”
There is nothing that you can see that in principle a non-believer cannot see. 'See' can mean insight and comprehension if you want it to.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
So no man has more insight than any other?Yes you could gain understanding as we have
by believing in what the bible says.
You equate believing in something to having special knowledge?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 08 2008,17:23) Hi Stu,
Yep .
Heart knowledge not head stuff.
So we come full-circle to exactly the same line you tried many posts ago in another thread, a phrase that contains no meaning whatsoever. I think I should call your bluff on this issue too. You have no reply to evolution, the big bang as the source of matter from a singularity nor what it is that a believer can do that a non-believer cannot.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,17:14) I am competely skeptical of a believer knowing anything that a non-believer could not possibly know.
Yes, I understand your skepticism. I guess I am a believer because I have experienced it first hand.I have heard some say to me, “How did you know that?” And my only answer is, “Because God told me.” It doesn't happen very often, let me be clear. But it has happened more than twice where God has given me information about someone so that I can minister to them or help them. In this way, I know that I am given information that a non-believer would not be privy to. Why? Because a non-believer would not be listening to God. Does this make sense?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,17:43) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 08 2008,17:14) I am competely skeptical of a believer knowing anything that a non-believer could not possibly know.
Yes, I understand your skepticism. I guess I am a believer because I have experienced it first hand.I have heard some say to me, “How did you know that?” And my only answer is, “Because God told me.” It doesn't happen very often, let me be clear. But it has happened more than twice where God has given me information about someone so that I can minister to them or help them. In this way, I know that I am given information that a non-believer would not be privy to. Why? Because a non-believer would not be listening to God. Does this make sense?
Hi Not3in1I'm sorry to say that it makes no sense to me. Maybe that is your point! I think a person who is liable to believe in supernatural beings is also going to be very willing to interpret some experiences as communication from such a being. If I thought about it for a while I'm sure I could come up with a personal experience that could be interpreted as a communication from a god.
Stuart
It doesn't completely make sense to me either, Stu!
All I know is that God sometimes shares information with me about others. This is not merely something that could be interpreted as being supernatural – it is information that the other person verifies. I do not read minds. However I have the spirit of God as a deposit given to me that I am His. Therefore I have intimate communication with my God. And sometimes – sometimes – I get to know stuff and pass it on to others for their edification and encouragment. It's pretty cool, actually.
You don't have to believe me, Stu, but it happens nonetheless. Some things will never be explained. But some things can be felt and understood on a spiritual level where our brains are dull. Of this much I am convinced.
I guess there is much to be said for personal experience. It is something that you can't really argue. It is what it is.
I remember one time in college having a debate with an atheist, we were exchanging ideas and I shared some personal experiences I had with God. He got so mad that he slammed his hand down on the table. I remember just smiling at him as he shouted, “I can't argue with personal experience!” I wasn't sure why he was so mad? Was it because he hadn't any personal experience with God and wanted some? Or was it because he thought I was a liar? Anyway, I never got the chance to ask him because he got up and left……
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 08 2008,18:24) I guess there is much to be said for personal experience. It is something that you can't really argue. It is what it is. I remember one time in college having a debate with an atheist, we were exchanging ideas and I shared some personal experiences I had with God. He got so mad that he slammed his hand down on the table. I remember just smiling at him as he shouted, “I can't argue with personal experience!” I wasn't sure why he was so mad? Was it because he hadn't any personal experience with God and wanted some? Or was it because he thought I was a liar? Anyway, I never got the chance to ask him because he got up and left……
That is a shame. Your non-believing interlocuter missed the chance to ask you how you verify that the communication you percieve is coming from outside your own brain.Stuart
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