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Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 22 2009,09:18) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2009,16:15) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 21 2009,08:23) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2009,06:54) I believe that is how the law is applied in some countries, the UK for example. They have many instances of racial and homophobic attack which is definitely motivated by prejudice, often incited by the political actions of parties like the BNP. Such incitement is very similar to the statement that gays are 'worthy of death'. Stuart
You did not answer my question. If a man assaults a gay man because he is gay should he be punished more severely than a man who assaults an old lady for sport?thinker
To be honest, I don't think it is interesting enough a question to really be worth the brain power thinking about it.Stuart
Now ! Now ! Stu…. That is a very evasive disingenuous answer…It is the gay community that wants to lash out at society for rejecting their lifestyle and hate crimes afford them that opportunity….All crime is hatefull….and nothing more than a statement by the criminal that he is not willing to conform to the statutes of a civilized society….Assault is assault whether it is on a gay person or a straight person…in order to qualify as a hate crime the criminal would have to ask the victim…are you gay…and if the victim says yes..the criminal stabes him one extra time….seems rediculous dosn't it….Why should a group of people demand additional protection under the law because of their proclivities…
Why should christians be allowed to preach from a book that illegally incites people to murder?There are crimes that are not motivated by hate, for example people who are severely deprived and steal so they can eat, or personal illegal drug use by those who are addicted. Are you saying those people are in the same category as those who persecute others because of their own hatred?
The gay community seems to me to be just reacting to the persecution of christians. Call it homophobic persecution, hate, whatever, it is the motivating force for homosexual activists. If those of the abrahamic delusions and neo-NAZIs could just keep their redneck and ignorant opinions to themselves, we would probably never have heard of gay rights.
Judges are given min/max windows for punishments to allow for consideration of circumstances. I believe it is a needless law already covered, except that hate crime carries with it the ability to twist it into thought crime. As for being homophobic I neither hate nor fear homosexuals however I'll grant you they have been persecuted but not more so than any other disliked group… including Christians.
My opinion – Wm
It is those of other religions and other absolutist regimes that persecute christians, including communist dictators.
That is the nature of religiously-based persecution of others: it is all because of invented laws of imagined deities, or in the case of dictatorships the fact that the people must not be allowed to worship anything except the dictator / party in government.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 22 2009,02:01) No one wants to beat you down. Perhaps some of your ideas, but not you physically. I do not consider you worthy of death if you are a homophobe. Stuart
I was asked a question and I answered it. I am not a homophobe. I want EQUAL rights for all and not special rights for homosexuals.thinker
Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 22 2009,09:28) Quote (Cato @ Aug. 22 2009,05:59) The idea of hate crime laws are to enforce greater punishment (and hopefully, but doubtedly deter) those crimes that tend to cause social disruption out of proportion to the actual incident. In a practical sense it is to promote social cohesion, in a political sense it is often used to curry favor with a particular group. As a matter of justice it is difficult to pinpoint motivations and say that a crime motivated by hate is more heinous then that motivated by averice, jealousy or a sundry of other sins. Personally I dislike the various hate crime legislations for I think they are disingenuous.
Greetings Cato…. I think the hate crime phenomonon is directed at individuals to serve a political purpose….All crime is hatefull in nature….violence needs no elevation….in itself the violent act is a statement to society that an individual is rejecting the statutes that constitute a civilized society..
Tj.
Youre so right. Hate crime legislation proves that the homosexual community has an agenda. They are not satisfied with EQUAL rights. They want special considerations.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,21:10) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 22 2009,02:01) No one wants to beat you down. Perhaps some of your ideas, but not you physically. I do not consider you worthy of death if you are a homophobe. Stuart
I was asked a question ans I answered it. I am not a homophobe. I want EQUAL rights for all and not special rights for homosexuals.thinker
So you want the right to be condemned to death, or be described as worthy of death by someone else's book of mythology?Stuart
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,21:15) Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 22 2009,09:28) Quote (Cato @ Aug. 22 2009,05:59) The idea of hate crime laws are to enforce greater punishment (and hopefully, but doubtedly deter) those crimes that tend to cause social disruption out of proportion to the actual incident. In a practical sense it is to promote social cohesion, in a political sense it is often used to curry favor with a particular group. As a matter of justice it is difficult to pinpoint motivations and say that a crime motivated by hate is more heinous then that motivated by averice, jealousy or a sundry of other sins. Personally I dislike the various hate crime legislations for I think they are disingenuous.
Greetings Cato…. I think the hate crime phenomonon is directed at individuals to serve a political purpose….All crime is hatefull in nature….violence needs no elevation….in itself the violent act is a statement to society that an individual is rejecting the statutes that constitute a civilized society..
Tj.
Youre so right. Hate crime legislation proves that the homosexual community has an agenda. They are not satisfied with EQUAL rights. They want special considerations.thinker
And what SPECIAL rights do you think gay people are demanding, that are not just EQUAL rights?Stuart
Stu,
So what your saying is if someone is assaulted they ask the perpetrator if they did because they knew the person was gay? And if so then they let them off? It's currently illegal to assault someone no matter what the reason.Wm
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 23 2009,10:59) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,21:10) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 22 2009,02:01) No one wants to beat you down. Perhaps some of your ideas, but not you physically. I do not consider you worthy of death if you are a homophobe. Stuart
I was asked a question ans I answered it. I am not a homophobe. I want EQUAL rights for all and not special rights for homosexuals.thinker
So you want the right to be condemned to death, or be described as worthy of death by someone else's book of mythology?Stuart
Why do you put words into my mouth?thinker
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 22 2009,05:59) The idea of hate crime laws are to enforce greater punishment (and hopefully, but doubtedly deter) those crimes that tend to cause social disruption out of proportion to the actual incident. In a practical sense it is to promote social cohesion, in a political sense it is often used to curry favor with a particular group. As a matter of justice it is difficult to pinpoint motivations and say that a crime motivated by hate is more heinous then that motivated by averice, jealousy or a sundry of other sins. Personally I dislike the various hate crime legislations for I think they are disingenuous.
A certain amount I feel depends on the situation, one argument perhaps one could use:If someone were attacking my family, I might use violence to stop them.
If I were starving to death, I might use violence to obtain food.
If I were a drug addict, needing my next fix, I might use violence to take someone's purse to get it.
If I hated someone, I might use violence just because I hate them.
In my opinion, as you move down through that series of examples the violence becomes increasingly pointless, and since it is harmful – surely the less reason or justification behind it, the worse it is (insofar as it is less necessary to the perpetrator)?
Of course, it is equally bad to the victim assuming a similar level of harm is done in each case (including the person causing harm to the family as a victim once violence is used against them).
So is a crime committed in each case?
Is the severity of that crime the same in each case?I personally would contemplate two of those options in the right situation, which suggests to me that I don't view them as all equal.
Would anyone here strictly class them all as equal?
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 05 2009,04:57) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 23 2009,10:59) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 22 2009,21:10) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 22 2009,02:01) No one wants to beat you down. Perhaps some of your ideas, but not you physically. I do not consider you worthy of death if you are a homophobe. Stuart
I was asked a question ans I answered it. I am not a homophobe. I want EQUAL rights for all and not special rights for homosexuals.thinker
So you want the right to be condemned to death, or be described as worthy of death by someone else's book of mythology?Stuart
Why do you put words into my mouth?thinker
I don't think you understood my point.Is there any point in relitigating it?
Stuart
Quote (Douglas @ Sep. 05 2009,07:27) Would anyone here strictly class them all as equal?
Only the last one is political. There are people in the world who will match the crime with the punishment this way: the act of violence itself is punished equally with other non-political ones but the extra component of incitement for others to do the same, which causes more widespread stress, would appear to have gone unpunished, potentially allowing the violent to get away with the extra crime of wider intimidation of the hated group because the violence could have been delivered on any member of that community. It is true that perpetrators of other violent crimes make everyone less secure, but it is not a policy they are carrying out.Bash a gay and do the time. You are one up because you have instilled fear in others.
Stuart
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