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Thought I would post this here;
Has anyone seen God or not?
Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:11; Exodus 6:2-3, John 1:18Has seen
(Gen. 17:1) – “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3) – “God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty , but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11) – “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision . I shall speak with him in a dream. 7″Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?”
(Acts 7:2), “And he [Stephen] said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. . . ”
Has not seen
(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !”
(John 1:18) – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37) – “”And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46) – “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion ! Amen.”
It is evident above that God was seen. But, considering the “can't-see-God” verses, some would understandably argue that there would be a contradiction. One explanation offered is that the people were seeing visions, or dreams, or the Angel of the LORD (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21) and not really God Himself. But the problem is that the verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. They say that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Exodus 6:2-3).
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty, and at least Moses saw God, not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible–which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.Quote (lamontre @ June 13 2007,03:03) The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
I wish the solution were simple.However, your solution requires at least two assumptions: First, that there is a Godhead that is made up of three persons and second, that one of these persons preexisted in a physical form.
“All you need to do is accept what the Bible says.” OK, then I may I suggest that when Paul speaks of GOD, he is speaking of the Father ONLY. It's really that simple. [1 Cor. 8:6, among others.]
I have heard it said here that the Trinity “solves” a lot of these contradictions (read: problems) in scripture. But if we just take your advice and accept what the Bible says – then we would embrace these so-called contradictions and understand what we can of God through the more simple and clear passages.
Hey LM, this is a great thread! I'm going to dig in my personal study notes and see if I can't bring some other contradictions regarding the Trinity and get your take on them.
May God be with in your endeavor to proclaim the truth of the ecumenical creeds, Lamontre.
“Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, 'Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.“Acts 28:25-27
Hi LAM,
You cannot add to scripture to resolve anything.
Once again the word 'God' becomes elastic, shaped to mean whatever the theologian chooses.
Jesus told us who God is, his Father.
Jn 20
“17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. “
Jn 8
” 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: “So did Paul
Eph1
” 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: “1Cor8
“6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. “There is no trinity God in the bible.
Quote (lamontre @ June 13 2007,03:03) Thought I would post this here; Has anyone seen God or not?
Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:11; Exodus 6:2-3, John 1:18Has seen
(Gen. 17:1) – “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3) – “God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty , but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11) – “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision . I shall speak with him in a dream. 7″Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?”
(Acts 7:2), “And he [Stephen] said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. . . ”
Has not seen
(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !”
(John 1:18) – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37) – “”And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46) – “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion ! Amen.”
It is evident above that God was seen. But, considering the “can't-see-God” verses, some would understandably argue that there would be a contradiction. One explanation offered is that the people were seeing visions, or dreams, or the Angel of the LORD (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21) and not really God Himself. But the problem is that the verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. They say that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Exodus 6:2-3).
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty, and at least Moses saw God, not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible–which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.
lamontreWelcome!
How true and simple it is!
The scriptures speak for themselves!
The problem with “Untitarians”, “Henotheist” and “Arians”, is if the scriptures dosnt fit their doctrine then they resort to twisting and ignoring them, or blotting them out, or simply blaming it on the translators or the text saying that it is wrong.
Even worse they begin to just attack the person rather than show where scripturally there is error.
Obviously the scriptures do not contradict.
So if we have a parodox then we need to resolve it by looking at every angle and scripture that deal with the subject and be willing to accept the only possible conclusion.
The problem with many is they come to the scriptures with the belief that the “Trinity” is false then they distort or twist or ignore any scripture thats disagrees with them saying to themselves that cant be what that scripture means.
So they leave a boat load of scriptures by the wayside as being “contradictory” to their belief or just not true.
Statements like “The New Testament” takes precedent over the Old Testament scriptures. Where is this written?
Jesus didnt think so. He quoted from at least 24 of the 39 books that we know of.
Lk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. (Not the Father).Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(again not the Father)Jesus didnt come to destroy the Old but to fulfill it.
The scriptures is a biography of God and Jesus takes claim to them.
Where do they think the Apostles got their scriptures from?
Did the Apostles like Paul and John not know the Hebrew scriptures?
Would they write something that “contradicts” the scriptures they had?
Did they not take the scriptures litterally that “God appeared to Moses”?
John and Paul especially knew who Yeshua was. He was YHWH in the flesh!
John and Paul writes of him in Jn 1:1 and 12:37-41, and (Zech 12:10 John 19:34-37) and John 20:28 and (Isa 45:22,23 Rom 14:11, Phil 2:9-11) and (1 Tim 1:16,17 and 1 Tim 6:14-16 and Rev 17:14 and Rev 19:16) and 1 Tim 3:16 and Phil 2:6-8 and Heb 1:8-10.
Scriptures should be interpreted litterally unless it is obviously meant otherwise.
This is not one of those cases as scriptures clearly show the obvious is Yeshua is YHWH appearing to men of old!
Jesus was not contradicting the Hebrew scriptures, neither was John or Paul.
Quote (lamontre @ June 13 2007,03:03) Thought I would post this here; Has anyone seen God or not?
Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:11; Exodus 6:2-3, John 1:18Has seen
(Gen. 17:1) – “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3) – “God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty , but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11) – “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision . I shall speak with him in a dream. 7″Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?”
(Acts 7:2), “And he [Stephen] said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. . . ”
Has not seen
(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !”
(John 1:18) – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37) – “”And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46) – “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion ! Amen.”
It is evident above that God was seen. But, considering the “can't-see-God” verses, some would understandably argue that there would be a contradiction. One explanation offered is that the people were seeing visions, or dreams, or the Angel of the LORD (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21) and not really God Himself. But the problem is that the verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. They say that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Exodus 6:2-3).
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty, and at least Moses saw God, not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible–which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.
lamontreWelcome!
How true and simple it is!
The scriptures speak for themselves!
The problem with “Untitarians”, “Henotheist” and “Arians”, is if the scriptures dosnt fit their doctrine then they resort to twisting and ignoring them, or blotting them out, or simply blaming it on the translators or the text saying that it is wrong.
Even worse they begin to just attack the person rather than show where scripturally there is error.
Obviously the scriptures do not contradict.
So if we have a parodox then we need to resolve it by looking at every angle and scripture that deal with the subject and be willing to accept the only possible conclusion.
The problem with many is they come to the scriptures with the belief that the “Trinity” is false then they distort or twist or ignore any scripture thats disagrees with them saying to themselves that cant be what that scripture means.
So they leave a boat load of scriptures by the wayside as being “contradictory” to their belief or just not true.
Statements like “The New Testament” takes precedent over the Old Testament scriptures. Where is this written?
Jesus didnt think so. He quoted from at least 24 of the 39 books that we know of.
Lk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. (Not the Father).Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(again not the Father)Jesus didnt come to destroy the Old but to fulfill it.
The scriptures is a biography of God and Jesus takes claim to them.
Where do they think the Apostles got their scriptures from?
Did the Apostles like Paul and John not know the Hebrew scriptures?
Would they write something that “contradicts” the scriptures they had?
Did they not take the scriptures litterally that “God appeared to Moses”?
John and Paul especially knew who Yeshua was. He was YHWH in the flesh!
John and Paul writes of him in Jn 1:1 and 12:37-41, and (Zech 12:10 John 19:34-37) and John 20:28 and (Isa 45:22,23 Rom 14:11, Phil 2:9-11) and (1 Tim 1:16,17 and 1 Tim 6:14-16 and Rev 17:14 and Rev 19:16) and 1 Tim 3:16 and Phil 2:6-8 and Heb 1:8-10.
Scriptures should be interpreted litterally unless it is obviously meant otherwise.
This is not one of those cases as scriptures clearly show the obvious is Yeshua is YHWH appearing to men of old!
Jesus was not contradicting the Hebrew scriptures, neither was John or Paul.
Hi W,
You say
'John and Paul especially knew who Yeshua was. He was YHWH in the flesh!”
But scripture says
1Jn 4
' 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. '
Adding to scripture foolish human theories causes you to risk condemnation.
Quote (lamontre @ June 13 2007,03:03) Thought I would post this here; Has anyone seen God or not?
Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:11; Exodus 6:2-3, John 1:18Has seen
(Gen. 17:1) – “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3) – “God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty , but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11) – “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision . I shall speak with him in a dream. 7″Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?”
(Acts 7:2), “And he [Stephen] said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. . . ”
Has not seen
(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !”
(John 1:18) – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37) – “”And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46) – “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion ! Amen.”
It is evident above that God was seen. But, considering the “can't-see-God” verses, some would understandably argue that there would be a contradiction. One explanation offered is that the people were seeing visions, or dreams, or the Angel of the LORD (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21) and not really God Himself. But the problem is that the verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. They say that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Exodus 6:2-3).
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty, and at least Moses saw God, not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible–which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.
Hi Lam:The scripture states that God is invisible and that by definition is that he is unable to be seen with the eye, and what good is it to say that some one has seen God in this manner except to boast about having seen him.
The following scripture suggests that Jesus has seen Him:
Joh 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is * of God, he hath seen the Father.But my understanding of this verse is that he did not see him visibly otherwise it would contradict the following scripture:
1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Jesus was and is a man and so I believe that by saying he has seen Him, he is referring to having seen God's person or character, and so verse 1:18 states: “he hath declared him”.
The following is a dictionary definition of the word “declare” which I believe is intended by the scripture that Jesus has seen Him:
1. to make known or state clearly, esp. in explicit or formal terms: to declare one's position in a controversy.
Again, to see him visibly, I don't believe would have any merit. We see him, that is his character, through the life of Our Lord Jesus.
Joh 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?Hebrews 1
1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had * by himself purged * our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;In that sense, I also have seen Him. God is love.
God Bless
Quote (lamontre @ June 13 2007,03:03) http://www.carm.org/
LM,
This is one of the best sites I have seen in a long time. I'm going to put some time in there – thank you so much for sharing it!Under “heresies” there is this listed:
MONARCHIANISM – God is one person.
I wonder if Paul knew that he was a heretic? (1 Cor. 8:6)?
I guess I really am a heretic after all. I just thought it was something certain people called me out of affection….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,09:02) Hi W,
You say
'John and Paul especially knew who Yeshua was. He was YHWH in the flesh!”
But scripture says
1Jn 4
' 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. '
Adding to scripture foolish human theories causes you to risk condemnation.
NHWhere did I say Jesus didnt come in the flesh?
Did I not say Yeshua is come in the flesh.
He is the Lord from heaven!
Who was the “Lord” that was in heaven NH.
I believe it was YHWH the one that was pierced, remember?
94
You say…
Quote
Joh 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is * of God, he hath seen the Father.But my understanding of this verse is that he did not see him visibly otherwise it would contradict the following scripture:
This is exactly what I wrote about in the previous post. That when scripture dosnt make sence to us we just explain it away.
The scripture means exactly as it says…Jesus saw the Father. And it is not a contradiction to…
1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.How could Jesus be able to “Declare” him if he hadnt seen him?
Jesus did not lie when he said he has seen the Father. The seeming contradiction is with you and the “Unitarians” who do not believe in the pre-existance of Jesus the Word that was with God.
For if it is true that “No Man” has seen God, but Jesus has. Then that would mean that Jesus must have seen God before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh and that would destroy your foundational belief.
The scripture dosnt need any interpretation.
Jn 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, **he hath seen the Father**.Blessings
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 13 2007,15:22) Hi WJ – welcome back – good to hear from you again. I missed your “ ” smiley faces!
Not3Thanks! But you should heed to the words I share for they are true.
Thank you for your encouraging words WJ.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.Note the past and present tense of these words…..
Without the triunity of God, and the deity of Jesus Christ, these words are senseless.
In vs 23, the bolded term “even as” is;
G2531
kath-oce'
From G2596 and G5613; just (or inasmuch) as, that: – according to, (according, even) as, how, when.It has the implication of “when”. So that we could read it to say, that we should honor the Father and the Son, not only in the same manner, but at the same time. How can we heed Jesus words here, without a trinitarian view?
How the implications of such verses can escape some, is beyond me.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2007,17:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,09:02) Hi W,
You say
'John and Paul especially knew who Yeshua was. He was YHWH in the flesh!”
But scripture says
1Jn 4
' 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. '
Adding to scripture foolish human theories causes you to risk condemnation.
NHWhere did I say Jesus didnt come in the flesh?
Did I not say Yeshua is come in the flesh.
He is the Lord from heaven!
Who was the “Lord” that was in heaven NH.
I believe it was YHWH the one that was pierced, remember?
Hi W,
Aggregating possiblilities does not make one simple fact.Was God in heaven when “He was pierced”?
Was God “in the flesh” or flesh?
Christ is the Son of God.
He came in the flesh
Hi LAM,
Indeed all the prophets of God should have been honoured for their roles as vessels for God,
but they, along with the Son of God, were murdered because men hate our God.Lk 20
” 9Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.10And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2007,17:14) He is the Lord from heaven!
I'm curious – is there a verse that says Jesus is the “Lord from heaven”?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2007,17:53) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 13 2007,15:22) Hi WJ – welcome back – good to hear from you again. I missed your “ ” smiley faces!
Not3Thanks! But you should heed to the words I share for they are true.
I heed more than you think I doHi not3
1Cor 15[kjv]
” 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.”
compare
ylt
” 47The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven; “
nasb
“47The first man is (A)from the earth, (B)earthy; the second man is from heaven.”
niv
“47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.”
esv
“47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.”The NIV does not specify any manuscript variation as it usually does if there is any.
It would be good to know more.
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