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I want to hear you guy's thoughts on Genesis 18
where 14 times if makes it clear that Jehovah himself
appeared to Abraham, has feet, eats, and stands with
Abraham, yet as John 6:46 makes plain no man has ever
seen the Father. I humbly suggest Abraham saw the
preincarnate Christ, whom he correctly identified as
Jehovah. Remember Jesus' own words, Abraham longed to
see my day and did see it, and again, before Abraham
was I AM.In case there is any doubt, Acts 7:2 Stephen
commenting on Gen 12, makes it plain that Abraham did
in fact see God, not simpy an angelic being.This topic might have been covered somewhere else. If it has im sorry, but would like to see some comments on it if possible. Thank u
Exodus 24: 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 35: 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
This verse often gets overlooked too…..
Quote Genesis 3
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?” 10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” 11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” 12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,“Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living. 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
It is clear to me that on occasions certain people have seen, spoken to and even eaten with the Father and Jesus.
Here they are seen together:
Quote
Acts 7
54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”My take on Joh 6:46 is that it means no one has seen God is all His magesty.
To stroshow,
No one can see God for he is invisible and he is Spirit.
But God manifests himself through his creation. So creation bears witness to the invisible God. But creation is not God himself.Some verses where men are suppose to have seen God, you will find on closer study what they really saw was a representitive of God such as the Lord's angel or even Christ. Perhaps the glory around an angel or even the Lord Jesus when he was transfigured is the closest thing to seeing God, but that is just his glory. God is invisible to us because he is way beyond our comprehension. He even exists outside of creation itself.
The Book of Revelation is a good example to us. It was given by God, then to the son who passed it to the angel who gave it to John. God reveals himself through vessels. He can even be revealed in us. God wants to reveal himslef to us, but we cannot see his form. We see God primarily through his son. But we can also see God in some kind acts of men.
It says in scripture that Moses saw God, but we read later that Moses saw the angel of the LORD.
But there is one who has seen God and that is the only begotten of God. The closest thing to seeing God is to see Christ. He is the image of the invisible God.
1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.Only Christ has seen God.
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37 (English-NIV)
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.If people can really see God as he is, then the Apostle's John and Paul taught falsely. If anyone believes that you can see God and that the above verses are also true, then they are double minded.
Just to be clear on WHO appeared to Abraham
Acts 7:2- [2] And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
So again, it is clear that GOD HIMSELF APPEARED,
(stephen is ref. to the account in Genesis 12, yet as
we discussed no man has seen the Father.Not only does Genesis 18 make it clear 14 times that
it is Jehovah himself with Abraham, and that it is
Jehovah in Gen 12 also, but so that no one could ever
claim it was less that God HIMSELF, the HOLY SPIRIT
inspired the writers to record the word of Stephen in
Act 7:2 that say the GOD OF GLORRY APPEARED
TO…ABRAHAM!So who is right you or Stephen?
You or the clear statements recorded in the word of
God?Quote (stroshow @ April 23 2005,18:21) Just to be clear on WHO appeared to Abraham Acts 7:2- [2] And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
So again, it is clear that GOD HIMSELF APPEARED,
(stephen is ref. to the account in Genesis 12, yet as
we discussed no man has seen the Father.Not only does Genesis 18 make it clear 14 times that
it is Jehovah himself with Abraham, and that it is
Jehovah in Gen 12 also, but so that no one could ever
claim it was less that God HIMSELF, the HOLY SPIRIT
inspired the writers to record the word of Stephen in
Act 7:2 that say the GOD OF GLORRY APPEARED
TO…ABRAHAM!So who is right you or Stephen?
You or the clear statements recorded in the word of
God?
stroshow:AMEN!
This perverted doctrine of T8 follows all the false religions of the world for the first thing thay ALL do is to deny God the Son and relegate Him to a lesser position than God.
T8, you have aligned yourself with the Muslims:
Qur'an:
Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.”
Sura 3:59: “The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be.” And he was.”
Sura 4:171: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” :desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”No one has seen The Father but Jesus. Jesus is the exact representation of him (Hebrews 1) so when YHVH appeared to people it was Jesus.
Quote (stroshow @ April 24 2005,13:21) Just to be clear on WHO appeared to Abraham Acts 7:2- [2] And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
So again, it is clear that GOD HIMSELF APPEARED,
(stephen is ref. to the account in Genesis 12, yet as
we discussed no man has seen the Father.Not only does Genesis 18 make it clear 14 times that
it is Jehovah himself with Abraham, and that it is
Jehovah in Gen 12 also, but so that no one could ever
claim it was less that God HIMSELF, the HOLY SPIRIT
inspired the writers to record the word of Stephen in
Act 7:2 that say the GOD OF GLORRY APPEARED
TO…ABRAHAM!So who is right you or Stephen?
You or the clear statements recorded in the word of
God?
First of all if I were to believe you then it would be at the expense of clear teachings from the New Testament. No matter what you say, scripture says that no man can see God, but that the only begotten is the only one who can declare him. This is not one scripture but many.So ask yourself why your belief appears to be against those scriptures I quoted. Surely you are denying those scriptures.
Now to clear up who Abraham saw. It was the angel of the Lord. When we see God it is always through someone or something. Some people can see God through creation, but to see God through the son is the highest revelation.
Old Testament
Genesis 16:13
13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”Exodus 3:16
“Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD , the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt.Deuteronomy 5:24
And you said, “The LORD our God has shown us his glory and his majesty, and we have heard his voice from the fire. Today we have seen that a man can live even if God speaks with him.Ezekiel 43:2
and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.New Testament
1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.1 Timothy 6:15
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.Reconciling the Old and New Testaments
So, how do we reconcile these apparent contradictions between the Old and New Testaments. Well I personally do not think they are contradictions but a difference in detail and revelation.
Take a look at Judges 13:20-22
20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.
21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD .
22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”Now taken alone, the “we have seen God” part, seems to indicate that God must be visible, yet we know from the detail here, that they really saw God through a messenger, in this case it was the Angel of the Lord.
When you ask most people with bible knowledge, “who saw God”, most would say Moses and the burning bush incident.
Exodus 3:1-14
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God……………………….
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ” ………………..Exodus 4:1-17
1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ………………
13 But Moses said, “O Lord, please send someone else to do it.”
14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, “What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you.
15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do.
16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it.”……………..So did Moses actually see Yahweh, or a representative of Yahweh? Well it is clear that Moses saw an Angel, yet it was the great 'I Am' who was speaking. So it was God, but he was using a messenger as I believe he always does. We also see that Aaron spoke on behalf of Moses to represent Moses who represented God.
Now look at Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.So in the Old Testament we see obvious examples of Men seeing God, but on closer study we actually find that it was a representitive of Yahweh such as the Son of God or an Angel. I am not sure if the people knew that it was Yahweh's representitive but called him Yahweh because they didn't understand that God is invisible and no man can see him, coupled with the obvious wonderful glory of God that would have been present, or whether they understood that they were seeing and speaking to Yahweh, but through a vessel.
T8,
You wrote:
First of all if I were to believe you then it would be
at the expense of clear teachings from the
New Testament. No matter what you say, scripture
says that no man can see God, but that the only
begotten is the only one who can declare him. This
is not one scripture but many.Response: I agree, No many has seen God, (the Father).
That is what such passages refer to the Father, not to
the Son.Yet Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have seen Jehovha. The
point is that they did see someone they recoginzed as
Jehovah God, but it was NOT the Father. Who was is? I
humbly submit it was Jesus, who is NOT the Father, yet
is Jehovha.If we understand Gen. 18 where is says Jehovah
appeared to Abraham, as well as those other passages
where Abraham, Isaac and Jacob saw Jehovha as being
preincarnate appearances of Jesus it ALL fits. Jesus
is Jehovah, people have seen him, the Son, not the
Father. They is NO contradiction in scripture and
where it says Jehovah appeared it menas Jehovhah
appeared.The way you present it T8, however is tis way.
Moses says Jehovah appeared to Abraham, but YOU say,
Moses was wrong it was not Jehovha, it was an angel.Stephen says in Act 7:2 that Abraham saw the God of
Glory, but YOU say, no Stephen was wrong it was an
angel.Yet the plain teaching of the passages themselves are
that Jehovha himself did appear, the God of Glory was
seen and that no man has see the Father. This is NOT a
contradiction because when Jehovha appeared, when the
God of Glory was seen it was the Son, not the Father
who appeared. As while they are “distinct” persons,
they are nonetheless ONE God.My beliefs affirm all the scriptures and there is NO
contradiction.It is you who go on to quote several passages where
people record that they saw GOD and you say they were
wrong they saw not God, but a angel.Note that there are times when they see an “angel of
Jehovah” in those instances we know that because the
TEXT says it!The ones we have been discussing do not. You are
reading something into the text that is not there.Quote Genesis 18
1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
A couple of things that add weight to Stroshow's view.
1. When Abraham saw these visitors he immediately ran to them, bowed to the ground and said “My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant”. Would he say this to an angel? I think not.
2. When the Sodom negotiations were unfolding this visitor spoke with the authority only God could rightly use. He used the first person singular future tense: “I will….”.
Quote (stroshow @ April 25 2005,15:53) Moses says Jehovah appeared to Abraham, but YOU say,
Moses was wrong it was not Jehovha, it was an angel.Stephen says in Act 7:2 that Abraham saw the God of
Glory, but YOU say, no Stephen was wrong it was an
angel.
To Sostrow,I am amazed that I even have to say the following:
I do not say what you have said I say. The New Testamant says that. I am merely quoting scripture. So am I to suppose that scripture is wrong?
1 John 4:12, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15, John 6:46, John 1:18, John 5:37.
I can only conclude from your teaching Sostrow that John and Paul were wrong when they said “No man can see God”. But maybe you are wrong on this issue? Have you considered this possibility.
Further we even see clearly taught in the New Testament that Moses indeed saw the Angel of the Lord. Am I to suppose that this is wrong too. What else am I suppose to conclude from your teaching but that the New Testament writers were wrong.
Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.Now it seems that the Old Testament is also wrong too.
Judges 13:20-22
20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.
21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD .
22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!“What I preach is nothing but scripture in fact I am merely quoting scripture and you say that I am wrong. This really is amazingly obvious to anyone with eyes to see. No one can see God.
To those reading this I say the following in the hope that you can reason this through. I don't think that it is very hard to understand. But it appears that John and Paul taught clearly that no one except Yeshua can see God. Often men and woman who saw God especially in the Old Testament actually saw with their eyes a representitive of God such as the Angel of the Lord. When God appears to us, it is not 'as' but 'in'.
Even God was in Jesus when Jesus walked the earth.
2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.Note that God was in Christ, not God was Christ or Christ was God. If you understand that, then you will understand a lot of scripture and it won't be confusing to the point where you go against it.
God is an invisible spirit who is eternal and inhabits not only his own creation, but even beyond that. You cannot say that God is a man or an object made by human hands. Not even the heavens can contain him.
We need to get real and realise that God just doesn't walk up to, shake your hand and say I am God. That thinking is rediculous. I am amazed that I even need to say this.
Yes we can see God. We can see him through Christ, or any other representitive that he sends. We can even see God in creation and therefore we have no excuse when we say that God doesn't exist. But God is not creation, us or Christ. He dwells inside perhaps, but he is not that thing in which he dwells. But I think that any reasonable person can understand what scripture is saying regarding no one seeing God. We see God through his creation and primarily through his son, but not God himself. We cannot see HIS form. We see the vessel that he dwells in.
Now it is obvious that Paul and John taught clearly more than once that no one can see God and I am not disagreeing with them. Yet they were obviously fully aware of the Old Testament and also the fact that thousands had seen Christ.
So as usual we can see that a teaching that comes hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written causes confusion on this issue as it does with amny other issues. Rather than taking scripture at face value, it becomes confused when mixed with man-made teaching and then that causes division and arguement. How silly these people are to even allow man-made teaching to enter their faith and then try and confuse others with it.
As it is written: deceiving and being deceived. If we believe in the Trinity doctrine then we cannot accept what Paul and John taught regarding no man can see God. Especially considering that thousands actually saw Jesus. Again confusion comes when man-made doctrine becomes the template by which truth is perceived. But God is not the author of confusion is he.
Is 1:18
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2005,16:13) A couple of things that add weight to Stroshow's view. 1. When Abraham saw these visitors he immediately ran to them, bowed to the ground and said “My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant”. Would he say this to an angel? I think not.
2. When the Sodom negotiations were unfolding this visitor spoke with the authority only God could rightly use. He used the first person singular future tense: “I will….”.
Oh I see, Paul and John taught falsely. Of course. Why didn't I see it before.How silly Is 1:18. It is obvious that no one can see God, but that we see the invisible God through visible created things and especially Christ the first born and only begotten.
As it is written in Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.Therefore if you want to know what God looks like, then look to the image of God. He is the one who declares God to us.
Why O why suggest that John and Paul were wrong when they taught that no one can see God. They are Apostles and even took part in the foundation of our faith. If you disagree with them, then are you building on the foundation or trying to destroy the foundation?
From what spirit are you guys coming from?
Hi t8,
Can we just stick to the questions that Stroshow has brought to attention and save the sarcasm.
I simply parrotted the conclusion that he is trying to drive home. I said it sarcastically so that the readers can see that I do not agree with it.
Prov. 26:4-5
“Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit”.This is why I answered the way I did. I believe that this teaching is foolish and sometimes by saying what the teaching wants me to say, (but in a way to show non-agreement) we can see how silly it really is.
Yes Nick it is simple to understand. Scripture teaches it clearly, so it is silly to teach otherwise.
It makes me wonder where people are coming from, when they teach against scripture and are aware of it too.
Why do people blatantly teach against scripture? What profit can be derived from it?
No man can see God, except the one who is FROM God. Who is the one from God? Yeshua.
Quote (t8 @ April 24 2005,01:37) So in the Old Testament we see obvious examples of Men seeing God, but on closer study we actually find that it was a representitive of Yahweh such as […] an Angel. I am not sure if the people knew that it was Yahweh's representitive but called him Yahweh because they didn't understand that God is invisible and no man can see him, coupled with the obvious wonderful glory of God that would have been present, or whether they understood that they were seeing and speaking to Yahweh, but through a vessel.
Hi t8That really hits the nail on the head, especially your example of Moses at the burning bush.
I think Exodus 23 is very relevant here:
Quote (Exodus 23 @ NASB) 20 Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
21 Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him.
22 But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
If we know that there was a particular angel that carried the name “Yahweh”, I think that helps us to understand passages like Genesis 18, and much of Exodus. “No man has ever seen God” is unambiguous!
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