- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2009,15:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2009,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 23 2009,03:29) BTW, I have said that I have been oblivious to the evangelistic opportunities that halloween presents and that you have made me aware of this. I have ordered some gospel tracts and I will have them this weekend. It is a no-brainer that one should seize the opportunity to evangelize people when they are coming right to the door.
Way to go, Thinker!And way to go, Keith. Because you're not only a hearer of the Word….you are a doer of the Word!!
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.Press on towards the goal, brothers!! I'm cheering you on!!
Love,
Mandy
I have an Idea. Let's all go out tomorrow (Saturday) and talk to people about the Bible, about God's kingdom.I will. Can anyone else do this?
Or can you only do it on halloween?
Hi David,
Do your ideas come from God or from you?
If you go will you offer them the Watchtower or the Word?Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 22 2009,20:06) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 22 2009,19:42) Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2009,23:42) Thinker, WJ, refused to answer this question. I was wondering what your thoughts were? Which is more important. 1. Your freedom. Or, 2. your brother?
Brother!
David,
I have answered you and so has WJ. If the exercise of my liberty would cause my brother to stumble, that is, to act against his own conscience I would abstain from feasting in an idol's temple. If he is just trying to govern my own conscience then I will tell him to go fly a kite. You and Con would not act against your own consciences. So go fly a kite.Giving out a gospel tract and a piece of candy in Christ's name is a different matter. I would not hide my light under a bushel for a brother. In this situation I am to obey God rather than men.
“For if I seek to please men I cannot be the servant of Christ” (Paul).
thinker
Thinker, WJ,For a second, forget about halloween.
If there were two large boxes, one with “your freedom” in it and one with “your brother” in it, and you could only save one for yourself, which box would you choose?
*****************
Quote If the exercise of my liberty would cause my brother to stumble, that is, to act against his own conscience I would abstain from feasting in an idol's temple. –thinker.
But “thinker” how do you know if your brother will stumble or not? How do you even know if he has stumbled? Will he say: “Oops, I've stumbled.” By then, it may be too late. Too late for YOU, maybe.
“But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea.”
Do you see that this is important, at least?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 22 2009,20:08) david, acting righteous just comes across as legalistic. No amount of holier than thou's makes the JWs look like the real church. They are just one organisation of many. Often these organisations write their own versions of things to make themselves look good.
Pointing out how bad everyone else can perhaps make the JW's look good. But it is like that parable about the sheep. On a sunny day they look so glistening white. But when it snows they look so dirty.
God's righteousness is whiter than the snow.
T8I really don't understand all this “holier than thou” talk.
For me, it seems similar to Nicks (You're a JW, so you're wrong) or even WJ: (You're a JW, so you're wrong.)
It's a false argument. t8, you say there is no trinity. Does that make holier than the person who says there is. You say the trinity is WRONG. Many say it is right. You say hellfire is WRONG. Nick says it is right. Does that make you seem holier than Nick when you explain to Nick that Nick is wrong? I believe the Bible has principles that are very clear on mixing paganism and true worship. I believe it is WRONG. Others believe it is right. What is the difference between this and the trinity? (I know, you'll say, the trinity is very clearly not in the Bible, just as others will say it very clearly is.) But I think just as clearly, there are Bible principles that no one here seems to want to talk about. They only know one word: “Freedom.” I don't think they all even know what that word really means. But that word sounds good. So, they keep saying it. I think it has got stuck in their heads. You hear that word a lot on the US propaganda machine. Side Question: Where are WJ, Thinker, and Mandy from? I only know mandy is from the States.
t8, everything else you said…. I haven't once mentioned JW's. It is you, Nick, Thinker, and WJ who do this, to somehow create some sort of argument for the freedom of practicing halloween. Can't we just play fair? Can't we discuss what this thread is about?
Quote (david @ Oct. 22 2009,17:08) Quote My mom used to tell me a story about a frog and a pot of water. She said that if you put a frog into a boiling pot of water (Halloween), it will jump out. But if you put a frog in to a cool pot of water (Christmas and Easter), you can gradually heat it up and cook the frog alive!! –Mandy?
How did your mom figure this out? Poor frogs…..
Mandy, I can't believe this didn't get a response!Hi David,
You must be born again.
Only then will you see the kingdom which is not in your kingdom halls.
Then the light yoke will take the unnecessary striving out of your religious life and you will be able to serve God.NICK, I can direct you to a real moderator who will accompany you to the proper thread if you wish.
david.
To all,
I was reading scripture today about eating with non-believers. It brought an interesting question to my mind. When we eat we often bless the food. If an unbeliever blesses the food at such a meal what is the ethical thing to do?
Quote (david @ Oct. 23 2009,23:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2009,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 23 2009,03:29) BTW, I have said that I have been oblivious to the evangelistic opportunities that halloween presents and that you have made me aware of this. I have ordered some gospel tracts and I will have them this weekend. It is a no-brainer that one should seize the opportunity to evangelize people when they are coming right to the door.
Way to go, Thinker!And way to go, Keith. Because you're not only a hearer of the Word….you are a doer of the Word!!
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.Press on towards the goal, brothers!! I'm cheering you on!!
Love,
Mandy
I have an Idea. Let's all go out tomorrow (Saturday) and talk to people about the Bible, about God's kingdom.I will. Can anyone else do this?
Or can you only do it on halloween?
DavidAs a matter of fact that is exactly what our church is doing tommorow.
So much for your accusations huh?
WJ
Quote (david @ Oct. 23 2009,23:30) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 24 2009,08:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2009,15:13) Quote (david @ Oct. 22 2009,02:39) Quote Well,
I think the message is that pagan roots do not have to dictate what is built upon them and what is built upon them can be totally in God's will. An argument based on pagan roots is insignificant to me because of this “altar” passage. God can have us build over something that was used for a false god. The mere fact that common elements (stones) were used does not make the common elements bad.Kathi,
Right. Nothing is instrinsically wrong with exchanging gifts. Nothing is intrinsically wrong with evergreen trees. Nothing is instrinsically wrong with lights. Nothing is intrinsically wrong with the date Dec 25th. Etc.
But, why do people on Dec 25th, bring an evergreen into their house and cover it with light and exchange gifts? Because, of ancient sun worship, because of ancient tree worship, and a festival that connected them all at the end of December where gifts were exchanged.
Does it not honor paganism to do the same things they were doing thousands of years ago, at the same time?
Nothing is wrong with a stone, as you say. But if an ancient people worshiped a particular stone on a particular day in a particular way…why would you adopt their practices? Would this not be inciting God to anger, by imitating things he saw and hated?
Hi David,
David I think you are great but I think that you need to go to your happy place and put on some happy music and enjoy the right hemisphere of your brain for a while. Your left hemisphere needs a night off. IMOKathi
David is right and the scriptures prove it:Jeremiah 10:2-4 (King James Version)
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
And it is the same with Halloween you follow the ways of the Pagan why would you carve a pumpkin and put it in front of your house?
Folklore
Pumpkin craft for Halloween.An old Irish folk tale tells of Stingy Jack, a lazy yet shrewd farmer who uses a cross to trap the Devil. One story says that Jack tricked the Devil into climbing an apple tree, and once he was up there Jack quickly placed crosses around the trunk or carved a cross into the bark, so that the Devil couldn't get down. Another myth says that Jack put a key in the Devil's pocket while he was suspended upside-down.
Another version of the myth says that Jack was getting chased by some villagers from whom he had stolen, when he met the Devil, who claimed it was time for him to die. However, the thief stalled his death by tempting the Devil with a chance to bedevil the church-going villagers chasing him. Jack told the Devil to turn into a coin with which he would pay for the stolen goods (the Devil could take on any shape he wanted); later, when the coin/Devil disappeared, the Christian villagers would fight over who had stolen it. The Devil agreed to this plan. He turned himself into a silver coin and jumped into Jack's wallet, only to find himself next to a cross Jack had also picked up in the village. Jack had closed the wallet tight, and the cross stripped the Devil of his powers; and so he was trapped. In both myths, Jack only lets the Devil go when he agrees never to take his soul. After a while the thief died, as all living things do. Of course, his life had been too sinful for Jack to go to heaven; however, the Devil had promised not to take his soul, and so he was barred from hell as well. Jack now had nowhere to go. He asked how he would see where to go, as he had no light, and the Devil mockingly tossed him an ember that would never burn out from the flames of hell. Jack carved out one of his turnips (which was his favourite food), put the ember inside it, and began endlessly wandering the Earth for a resting place. He became known as “Jack of the Lantern”, or Jack-o'-Lantern.
Hi Kathi.Kathi, unfortunately for many, discussing scripture and scripture related topics is my happy place. It relaxes me.
If your suggesting I'm thinking too much (by using the left side of my brain too much) I would argue that you are not using your left side enough. I love to paint. I have several hobbies, some of which are very creative.
But when it comes to what God wants from us, the Bible is the place to go. The scripture that Bod quoted, I have quoted before as well. How would you respond to it? In fact, how would you respond to anything I've said?
David,
It would be nice to know the David that paints too. I've been reading a book about “How to Hear God's Voice” by Mark Virkler and he addresses the importance of using all of the brain to understand what God is saying to us. It seems that so many here are into the logical arguments and miss the message. For instance, about the Jeremiah 10 passage about a tree cut down and decorated with silver and gold, I can see the connection here but I also read that the purpose of THAT tree was to be an idol. It probably had the branches cut off and an image carved into it and then gold and silver applied. Just because it was a tree cut down and decorated didn't make it bad, the fact that it was an idol was bad. I don't know anyone that worships their Christmas tree or their cross on their necklace for that matter. You seem to know some but I don't. I have a couple silk trees in my home with lights on them all year round. I think that they cheer up my home as a decoration, not as an idol. So, I think that you go too far and insist that people are worshipping these things if they have a Christmas tree or wear a cross when they are just using the tree as a decoration to cheer up their home. If people value something because of it reminding them of something important (a cross necklace for instance) well, that isn't worship, even if they kiss it. Do you kiss little children…a kiss doesn't equal worship, it indicates value.If I told you that I took a hunk of wood and carved an animal and put gold and silver on it would you call me an idol maker? Well, I did do that, except the silver, but now it goes up and down on a carousel at the zoo. I enjoyed doing that and donating that to the community for little ones to ride. The carousel is a happy, fun thing. I suppose that you could use the argument of all the “graven images” that are on the carousel. Would you go that far? Do you even see what I mean? If the purpose of anything is to i
dolize, then it would be wrong. If the same thing is not idolized then it would not necessarily be wrong.I really would like to see your paintings
Kathi
Quote (david @ Oct. 23 2009,21:25) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 22 2009,20:06) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 22 2009,19:42) Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2009,23:42) Thinker, WJ, refused to answer this question. I was wondering what your thoughts were? Which is more important. 1. Your freedom. Or, 2. your brother?
Brother!
David,
I have answered you and so has WJ. If the exercise of my liberty would cause my brother to stumble, that is, to act against his own conscience I would abstain from feasting in an idol's temple. If he is just trying to govern my own conscience then I will tell him to go fly a kite. You and Con would not act against your own consciences. So go fly a kite.Giving out a gospel tract and a piece of candy in Christ's name is a different matter. I would not hide my light under a bushel for a brother. In this situation I am to obey God rather than men.
“For if I seek to please men I cannot be the servant of Christ” (Paul).
thinker
Thinker, WJ,For a second, forget about halloween.
If there were two large boxes, one with “your freedom” in it and one with “your brother” in it, and you could only save one for yourself, which box would you choose?
*****************
Quote If the exercise of my liberty would cause my brother to stumble, that is, to act against his own conscience I would abstain from feasting in an idol's temple. –thinker.
But “thinker” how do you know if your brother will stumble or not? How do you even know if he has stumbled? Will he say: “Oops, I've stumbled.” By then, it may be too late. Too late for YOU, maybe.
“But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea.”
Do you see that this is important, at least?
Quote Which is more important. 1. Your freedom. Or, 2. your brother? My brother
[/QUOTE]If there were two large boxes, one with “your freedom” in it and one with “your brother” in it, and you could only save one for yourself, which box would you choose?[/QUOTE]
I offer the box of Salvation to my brother.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren. 1John 3:16
Quote If the exercise of my liberty would cause my brother to stumble, that is, to act against his own conscience I would abstain from feasting in an idol's temple. Amen
Quote “But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea.” Amen
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 24 2009,04:36) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 23 2009,14:18) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 22 2009,08:19) t8 said: Quote I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace.
Exactly!thinker
Its through grace I can keep the law.
Your sentence is interesting to me.Grace came because we couldn't keep the law.
Technically grace was already coming (Gen. 3:15). What was the purpose of the law?“Why then was the law? It was set because of transgressions, until the seed should come, to whom he made the promise, being ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.” – Gal. 3:19
“Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ” – (v.24)
Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2009,00:25) Thinker, WJ, For a second, forget about halloween.
If there were two large boxes, one with “your freedom” in it and one with “your brother” in it, and you could only save one for yourself, which box would you choose?
“I would choose my brother”.
Now please tell me how giving some candy and a Bible tract is leaving my brother in a box? Please tell me that you see the difference?
You see David, the Christian brothers I know do not have the same warm and fuzzy feeling for legalism that you do, in fact most of them are witnessing on that day also.
So what does this mean, should I not give the candy and Bible tract to the children because I may offend an unknown brother, (what kind of Christian could possibly loose their faith over giving candy and a Bible tract to children is a foolish scenario that you have created anyway), or should I pray and witness to that child or parent who doesn’t know Jesus and possibly see them come to a saving knowledge of the Lord, which we have done David!
Is it me, or has all common sense and logic been thrown out for some stupid man made rule designed to stoop men into legalism?
T8 puts it well in his post that you didn’t address and in fact ignored…
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 22 2009,04:12) There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”. david, are you not saying to WJ “do not partake/touch/give away tracts on Halloween.
Are you not being legalistic and preaching that which is less than grace and against the freedom we have in Christ?
I do not judge WJ in this matter. I wouldn't dare. He is exercising his freedom in Christ. Sure, maybe he might of offended some with his freedom, but then the same could perhaps be said about you. You seem free to condemn those who exercise their freedom. Perhaps that too can weaken the faith of a weak person who may be listening in to the conversation? Perhaps someone listening right now who served/serves God on Halloween is now thinking that he might have sinned? We never really know the full impact our words can have on others.
This is the scripture…Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, “why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “DO NOT HANDLE! DO NOT TASTE! DO NOT TOUCH!”? These are all destined to perish with use, BECAUSE THEY ARE BASED ON HUMAN COMMANDS AND TEACHINGS”. “Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, “WITH THEIR SELF-IMPOSED WORSHIP, THEIR FALSE HUMILITY” and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Col 2:20-23
Can you see that you have a beam in your own eye David?
Can you see that by you accusing and attacking Jack, Mandy, Kathi, and myself, and our good and clean conscience toward God and our liberty in Christ may be causing us to stumble as well as those who may be listening, by casting a shadow of doubt on our and their conscience?
The very thing you accuse us of doing is exactly what you are attempting to do.
“ACCEPT HIM WHOSE FAITH IS WEAK, WITHOUT PASSING JUDGMENT ON DISPUTABLE MATTERS“. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. THE MAN WHO EATS EVERYTHING MUST NOT LOOK DOWN ON HIM WHO DOES NOT, AND THE MAN WHO DOES NOT EAT EVERYTHING MUST NOT CONDEMN THE MAN WHO DOES, FOR GOD HAS ACCEPTED HIM. ”WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVANT? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; “another man considers every day alike”. EACH ONE SHOULD BE “FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND. he who regards one day as special, does so to the lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. Rom 14:1-6
”keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander”. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 1 Peter 3:16, 17
So David, here is the question right back to you.
Kingdom hall and Watchtower has offended many Christians in the faith and caused many to stumble!
So if there were two large boxes one is “Kingdom hall and Watchtower” the other is “your brother” would you give up “kingdom hall and Watchtower” for your brother?
Which box would you choose? I am not even asking you to give up your faith in Jehovah.
“I am asking you which one would you choose between… your brother or “kingdom hall and Watchtower”?
“Which Box would you choose“?
To be honest David your teachings are offensive to us!
Waiting?
WJ
Hi CA,
You must be born again.
Be born into the righteous one.
Works and rituals and magic cannot justify youWorshippingJesus said:
Quote Can you see that by you accusing and attacking Jack, Mandy, Kathi, and myself, and our good and clean conscience toward God and our liberty in Christ may be causing us to stumble as well as those who may be listening, by casting a shadow of doubt on our and their conscience?
Keith,
David can't cause me to stumble. He can't affect my conscience.This whole discourse has made me appreciate that October 31 is the one day of the year when evangelistic opportunity is at its most. And this is the only way that I will treat the day differently. So I will not be hiding my light under a bushel. I can't go out because I get up too early for work. But I will pass out gospel tracts and a piece of candy in Christ's name until I need to go to bed.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,05:34) Hi TT,
Very noble but is it what God demands of you?
It' not for you to decide is it Nick? Each servant stands or falls before his Lord. Right?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2009,13:34) Hi TT,
Very noble but is it what God demands of you?
NHActually we love him because he first loved us and not because of “demands” he puts on us.
Its the goodness of God that leads us to repentance and not the “demands” of the law!
WJ
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
