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Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 22 2009,00:26) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 22 2009,18:01) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 21 2009,18:04) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 21 2009,19:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,22:31) Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2009,00:38) Quote God gives direction here to Gideon to pull down a pagan altar and use the Asherah as firewood to later use to burn an offering to the Lord on the new altar that Gideon was to build in the same place and this time it would be an altar for the Lord. So you see, the Lord did not concern Himself with the purpose of what lied there before. It didn't bother Him to build on the ruins of the pagan altar. So, I see this new altar to have, in a sense, the pagan roots since it is built over what used to be pagan. Follow along here…the new Godly altar replaced the pagan altar. I see Christmas as the Godly holiday replacing the pagan holiday (the Winter Solstice)…Easter also.
Or, maybe the message here is that Christmas, Easter, and halloween should be used as firewood?Lightenup, there is nothing intrinsically bad with the wood that they were worshipping, the sacred pole. It was just wood. So, they could burn it. But, understand that Jehovah hated false god worship. Burning the pole was not wrong. In fact, they were commanded to do this: (Ex 34:13; De 12:3)
But it would be different to take that thing that Jehovah hated and tie it around your neck and call every day on “Pole day” give people little poles in honor of the pole.
Well,
I think the message is that pagan roots do not have to dictate what is built upon them and what is built upon them can be totally in God's will. An argument based on pagan roots is insignificant to me because of this “altar” passage. God can have us build over something that was used for a false god. The mere fact that common elements (stones) were used does not make the common elements bad.Regarding the “wood” and not hanging little logs around our neck I suppose you are alluding to crosses. I see the cross similar to the altar that God had Gideon build in His honor. On that altar, like the cross, a sacrifice was made. God never tells us to tear down our altars that were built in honor of Him does He? I believe that the altars built in the OT as a memorial of an event that involved the true God in someway were pleasing to Him. People didn't worship the altar, they worshiped at the altar. In a similar way, Christians don't wear a cross around their neck in order to worship the cross but to remember a significant event that involved God. I do think that this pleases God.
The Spirit brings joy to the cross because on it sin was defeated, satan brings death to the cross and he hates it. I think that the cross should be a symbol of Jesus's victory and bring great joy…nothing to despise at all.
God bless,
Kathi
I dont wear a cross. Its an immage.
Boy I guess you should have been there to inform those constructing Solomon's temple about their “image” problem.Or maybe you should have been there to talk to Moses about that image of the serpent he made.
What were those “images” above the mercy seat of the ark?
Hmmm….
Maybe the problem is bowing down and worshiping them….and not the images themsleves…
Hmmm….
Is it why the Catholics took that commandment out?
Ah.. more hear say. We didn't take it out. We just don't use your new fangled numbering system. However what you consider the second commandment is very much a part of the first.
Catholic Catechism:Quote 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God…” Exodus 20:4,5
The way I see it is that much of what is called Christian is mere christian labels on a pagan heart. There is no doubt about that. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day and Easter most likely wasn't the time that he died and rose again. If we believe such, then we only provide evidence for pagans to say to us that we believe in their religion and Jesus is just another name for a pagan messiah or the latest iteration of a long line of pagan messiahs that were born on Dec 25.
That said, we who are of Christ and filled with the Spirit of God have a much greater one in us than he that is in the world.
If our heart is pure, then what we do is pure. No pagan holiday can take that away from us. Darkness cannot overcome light. Only the lack of light brings darkness.
Yes truth is very important, and being legalistic is not necessarily false, but it is not the best way.
There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”.
david, are you not saying to WJ “do not partake/touch/give away tracts on Halloween.
Are you not being legalistic and preaching that which is less than grace and against the freedom we have in Christ?
I do not judge WJ in this matter. I wouldn't dare. He is exercising his freedom in Christ. Sure, maybe he might of offended some with his freedom, but then the same could perhaps be said about you. You seem free to condemn those who exercise their freedom. Perhaps that too can weaken the faith of a weak person who may be listening in to the conversation? Perhaps someone listening right now who served/serves God on Halloween is now thinking that he might have sinned? We never really know the full impact our words can have on others.
I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace. We are given clear teaching as to what the difference is in the Book of Romans. Paul's conclusion is that anything that is not of faith is sin.
Therefore, whether it is Halloween or not, if it is not of faith then it is sin. Surely we can do works of faith on any day without being accused of sin?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 22 2009,20:12) The way I see it is that much of what is called Christian is mere christian labels on a pagan heart. There is no doubt about that. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day and Easter most likely wasn't the time that he died and rose again. If we believe such, then we only provide evidence for pagans to say to us that we believe in their religion and Jesus is just another name for a pagan messiah or the latest iteration of a long line of pagan messiahs that were born on Dec 25. That said, we who are of Christ and filled with the Spirit of God have a much greater one in us than he that is in the world.
If our heart is pure, then what we do is pure. No pagan holiday can take that away from us. Darkness cannot overcome light. Only the lack of light brings darkness.
Yes truth is very important, and being legalistic is not necessarily false, but it is not the best way.
There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”.
david, are you not saying to WJ “do not partake/touch/give away tracts on Halloween.
Are you not being legalistic and preaching that which is less than grace and against the freedom we have in Christ?
I do not judge WJ in this matter. I wouldn't dare. He is exercising his freedom in Christ. Sure, maybe he might of offended some with his freedom, but then the same could perhaps be said about you. You seem free to condemn those who exercise their freedom. Perhaps that too can weaken the faith of a weak person who may be listening in to the conversation? Perhaps someone listening right now who served/serves God on Halloween is now thinking that he might have sinned? We never really know the full impact our words can have on others.
I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace. We are given clear teaching as to what the difference is in the Book of Romans. Paul's conclusion is that anything that is not of faith is sin.
Therefore, whether it is Halloween or not, if it is not of faith then it is sin. Surely we can do works of faith on any day without being accused of sin?
You are so right, that Christ was niot born on Christmas day.
Not only that I can prove it that He was not. So much so changed and also the Calendar. If you go by God's Calendar and figure out when Zacharia the Husbvand of Elizabeth served in the Temple. If you go to my post I made about that, I wrote it all down. It is in the “Other Writings page 1 the forth post, in “Was Christ born on Dec. 25.
What I find so sad, that in spite that some people know, they don't care. Christ was born on the end of September to the first of Oxctober. The excact day is not proveable.
We have had no Tree or any kind of Decoration since 1984.
For our children it was not easy at first, but by now they excepted it.
IreneQuote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 22 2009,20:08) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 22 2009,00:26) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 22 2009,18:01) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 21 2009,18:04) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 21 2009,19:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,22:31) Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2009,00:38) Quote God gives direction here to Gideon to pull down a pagan altar and use the Asherah as firewood to later use to burn an offering to the Lord on the new altar that Gideon was to build in the same place and this time it would be an altar for the Lord. So you see, the Lord did not concern Himself with the purpose of what lied there before. It didn't bother Him to build on the ruins of the pagan altar. So, I see this new altar to have, in a sense, the pagan roots since it is built over what used to be pagan. Follow along here…the new Godly altar replaced the pagan altar. I see Christmas as the Godly holiday replacing the pagan holiday (the Winter Solstice)…Easter also.
Or, maybe the message here is that Christmas, Easter, and halloween should be used as firewood?Lightenup, there is nothing intrinsically bad with the wood that they were worshipping, the sacred pole. It was just wood. So, they could burn it. But, understand that Jehovah hated false god worship. Burning the pole was not wrong. In fact, they were commanded to do this: (Ex 34:13; De 12:3)
But it would be different to take that thing that Jehovah hated and tie it around your neck and call every day on “Pole day” give people little poles in honor of the pole.
Well,
I think the message is that pagan roots do not have to dictate what is built upon them and what is built upon them can be totally in God's will. An argument based on pagan roots is insignificant to me because of this “altar” passage. God can have us build over something that was used for a false god. The mere fact that common elements (stones) were used does not make the common elements bad.Regarding the “wood” and not hanging little logs around our neck I suppose you are alluding to crosses. I see the cross similar to the altar that God had Gideon build in His honor. On that altar, like the cross, a sacrifice was made. God never tells us to tear down our altars that were built in honor of Him does He? I believe that the altars built in the OT as a memorial of an event that involved the true God in someway were pleasing to Him. People didn't worship the altar, they worshiped at the altar. In a similar way, Christians don't wear a cross around their neck in order to worship the cross but to remember a significant event that involved God. I do think that this pleases God.
The Spirit brings joy to the cross because on it sin was defeated, satan brings death to the cross and he hates it. I think that the cross should be a symbol of Jesus's victory and bring great joy…nothing to despise at all.
God bless,
Kathi
I dont wear a cross. Its an immage.
Boy I guess you should have been there to inform those constructing Solomon's temple about their “image” problem.Or maybe you should have been there to talk to Moses about that image of the serpent he made.
What were those “images” above the mercy seat of the ark?
Hmmm….
Maybe the problem is bowing down and worshiping them….and not the images themsleves…
Hmmm….
Is it why the Catholics took that commandment out?
Ah.. more hear say. We didn't take it out. We just don't use your new fangled numbering system. However what you consider the second commandment is very much a part of the first.
Catholic Catechism:Quote 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God…” Exodus 20:4,5
The Catholic Catechism is the only literuture that was a loud to read for years. We never thought that there was anything wrong with that. Until God called us. Then our eyes were openend and we could understand the Word of God in the Bible. The Mass and the veneration of the cross on Good Friday all is an abomination to God. Christ did not die on Friday either.Irene
Here is Pope bowing before a statue.
Easter is a day especially designed to miss the actual day that Jesus died on the cross because of its relationship to the Jewish holiday of passover. Polycarp and many others celebrated it on the 14th of Nisan otherwise known as Passover.
It seems Anti Jewish feeling was a problem in the church in Rome.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 22 2009,15:12) The way I see it is that much of what is called Christian is mere christian labels on a pagan heart. There is no doubt about that. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day and Easter most likely wasn't the time that he died and rose again. If we believe such, then we only provide evidence for pagans to say to us that we believe in their religion and Jesus is just another name for a pagan messiah or the latest iteration of a long line of pagan messiahs that were born on Dec 25. That said, we who are of Christ and filled with the Spirit of God have a much greater one in us than he that is in the world.
If our heart is pure, then what we do is pure. No pagan holiday can take that away from us. Darkness cannot overcome light. Only the lack of light brings darkness.
Yes truth is very important, and being legalistic is not necessarily false, but it is not the best way.
There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”.
david, are you not saying to WJ “do not partake/touch/give away tracts on Halloween.
Are you not being legalistic and preaching that which is less than grace and against the freedom we have in Christ?
I do not judge WJ in this matter. I wouldn't dare. He is exercising his freedom in Christ. Sure, maybe he might of offended some with his freedom, but then the same could perhaps be said about you. You seem free to condemn those who exercise their freedom. Perhaps that too can weaken the faith of a weak person who may be listening in to the conversation? Perhaps someone listening right now who served/serves God on Halloween is now thinking that he might have sinned? We never really know the full impact our words can have on others.
I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace. We are given clear teaching as to what the difference is in the Book of Romans. Paul's conclusion is that anything that is not of faith is sin.
Therefore, whether it is Halloween or not, if it is not of faith then it is sin. Surely we can do works of faith on any day without being accused of sin?
Amen.I don't want to add to what God has said but I also do not want to take anything away. I suppose with items like this, this is why God has told us to not look down on each other on matter of faith, either way.
Good post
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 22 2009,04:46) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 22 2009,15:12) The way I see it is that much of what is called Christian is mere christian labels on a pagan heart. There is no doubt about that. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day and Easter most likely wasn't the time that he died and rose again. If we believe such, then we only provide evidence for pagans to say to us that we believe in their religion and Jesus is just another name for a pagan messiah or the latest iteration of a long line of pagan messiahs that were born on Dec 25. That said, we who are of Christ and filled with the Spirit of God have a much greater one in us than he that is in the world.
If our heart is pure, then what we do is pure. No pagan holiday can take that away from us. Darkness cannot overcome light. Only the lack of light brings darkness.
Yes truth is very important, and being legalistic is not necessarily false, but it is not the best way.
There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”.
david, are you not saying to WJ “do not partake/touch/give away tracts on Halloween.
Are you not being legalistic and preaching that which is less than grace and against the freedom we have in Christ?
I do not judge WJ in this matter. I wouldn't dare. He is exercising his freedom in Christ. Sure, maybe he might of offended some with his freedom, but then the same could perhaps be said about you. You seem free to condemn those who exercise their freedom. Perhaps that too can weaken the faith of a weak person who may be listening in to the conversation? Perhaps someone listening right now who served/serves God on Halloween is now thinking that he might have sinned? We never really know the full impact our words can have on others.
I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace. We are given clear teaching as to what the difference is in the Book of Romans. Paul's conclusion is that anything that is not of faith is sin.
Therefore, whether it is Halloween or not, if it is not of faith then it is sin. Surely we can do works of faith on any day without being accused of sin?
Amen.I don't want to add to what God has said but I also do not want to take anything away. I suppose with items like this, this is why God has told us to not look down on each other on matter of faith, either way.
Good post
I liked your response just now as well. Good response.Quote (david @ Oct. 22 2009,18:12) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 22 2009,04:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 20 2009,11:05) HI NOT3,
At the very least halloween glorifies witchcraft and the occult.
We should think about it.
I don't know……Ask a child what Halloween “glorifies” and I bet you wouldn't get witchcraft and the occult. You would hear things like, the harvest, pumpkins, candy, parties, trick-or-treating, special food and music, games…….
Witchcraft would be very low on their list.
Ask a child what “glorifies” mean and you'll get: “What?”
(I guess that depends on the child's age.)Mandy, why don't you ask a child to draw a picture of halloween?
We know what will be in that picture. I remember when I was in Grade 2, making a large moving hanging skeleton. I remember making a picture: the bats, the moon, the haunted house, the ghosts, the graves. (Ah, Catholic school.)
When children think “halloween” I don't think they would draw a picture of a harvest, or of games and parties, or even of candy. I think by far most would draw something like I mentioned above.
David,You are welcome to visit my daughter's school where each child has loaded their bulletin boards with “images” of Halloween. There are no graves, bats, no skeletons, no ghosts…..you would be really disppointed!!
Love,
MandyQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 22 2009,04:06) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 22 2009,19:42) Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2009,23:42) Thinker, WJ, refused to answer this question. I was wondering what your thoughts were? Which is more important. 1. Your freedom. Or, 2. your brother?
Brother!
David,
I have answered you and so has WJ. If the exercise of my liberty would cause my brother to stumble, that is, to act against his own conscience I would abstain from feasting in an idol's temple. If he is just trying to govern my own conscience then I will tell him to go fly a kite. You and Con would not act against your own consciences. So go fly a kite.Giving out a gospel tract and a piece of candy in Christ's name is a different matter. I would not hide my light under a bushel for a brother. In this situation I am to obey God rather than men.
“For if I seek to please men I cannot be the servant of Christ” (Paul).
thinker
JackWell said.
I have explained to David also. He chooses only to believe someone has answered him when you give him the answer he wants from you.
It is typical of JWs to force their man made doctrines on men.
You cannot even be a JW unless you totally accept their legalistic doctrines which bind men.
WJ
t8 said:
Quote I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace.
Exactly!thinker
Quote There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”. Quote I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace. I couldn't agree more, t8. What is interesting to me is who would side with the law versus grace. It's telling of their relationship with Christ. Do they really know him? I can't help but wonder if those who side with the law are missing the entire point of Jesus? But then again, I don't fully understand the argument either so I guess I'll shut up.
Love,
MandyQuote (t8 @ Oct. 22 2009,04:12) The way I see it is that much of what is called Christian is mere christian labels on a pagan heart. There is no doubt about that. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day and Easter most likely wasn't the time that he died and rose again. If we believe such, then we only provide evidence for pagans to say to us that we believe in their religion and Jesus is just another name for a pagan messiah or the latest iteration of a long line of pagan messiahs that were born on Dec 25. That said, we who are of Christ and filled with the Spirit of God have a much greater one in us than he that is in the world.
If our heart is pure, then what we do is pure. No pagan holiday can take that away from us. Darkness cannot overcome light. Only the lack of light brings darkness.
Yes truth is very important, and being legalistic is not necessarily false, but it is not the best way.
There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”.
david, are you not saying to WJ “do not partake/touch/give away tracts on Halloween.
Are you not being legalistic and preaching that which is less than grace and against the freedom we have in Christ?
I do not judge WJ in this matter. I wouldn't dare. He is exercising his freedom in Christ. Sure, maybe he might of offended some with his freedom, but then the same could perhaps be said about you. You seem free to condemn those who exercise their freedom. Perhaps that too can weaken the faith of a weak person who may be listening in to the conversation? Perhaps someone listening right now who served/serves God on Halloween is now thinking that he might have sinned? We never really know the full impact our words can have on others.
I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace. We are given clear teaching as to what the difference is in the Book of Romans. Paul's conclusion is that anything that is not of faith is sin.
Therefore, whether it is Halloween or not, if it is not of faith then it is sin. Surely we can do works of faith on any day without being accused of sin?
Amen t8Well said!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 23 2009,03:18) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 22 2009,04:06) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 22 2009,19:42) Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2009,23:42) Thinker, WJ, refused to answer this question. I was wondering what your thoughts were? Which is more important. 1. Your freedom. Or, 2. your brother?
Brother!
David,
I have answered you and so has WJ. If the exercise of my liberty would cause my brother to stumble, that is, to act against his own conscience I would abstain from feasting in an idol's temple. If he is just trying to govern my own conscience then I will tell him to go fly a kite. You and Con would not act against your own consciences. So go fly a kite.Giving out a gospel tract and a piece of candy in Christ's name is a different matter. I would not hide my light under a bushel for a brother. In this situation I am to obey God rather than men.
“For if I seek to please men I cannot be the servant of Christ” (Paul).
thinker
JackWell said.
I have explained to David also. He chooses only to believe someone has answered him when you give him the answer he wants from you.
It is typical of JWs to force their man made doctrines on men.
You cannot even be a JW unless you totally accept their legalistic doctrines which bind men.
WJ
Keith,
We have both answered David's question for the umteenth time. And yes the JW religion is a legalistic religion after the pattern of that which the scribes and pharisees set up.BTW, I have said that I have been oblivious to the evangelistic opportunities that halloween presents and that you have made me aware of this. I have ordered some gospel tracts and I will have them this weekend.
It is a no-brainer that one should seize the opportunity to evangelize people when they are coming right to the door.
thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2009,03:19) Quote There is a better way than the Law. In fact are we not warned to stay away from people who say “do not touch, do not taste”. Quote I think this whole thread is basically a debate about law versus grace. I couldn't agree more, t8. What is interesting to me is who would side with the law versus grace. It's telling of their relationship with Christ. Do they really know him? I can't help but wonder if those who side with the law are missing the entire point of Jesus? But then again, I don't fully understand the argument either so I guess I'll shut up.
Love,
Mandy
Don't shut up Mandy. You have more sense than David and Con.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 23 2009,03:29) BTW, I have said that I have been oblivious to the evangelistic opportunities that halloween presents and that you have made me aware of this. I have ordered some gospel tracts and I will have them this weekend. It is a no-brainer that one should seize the opportunity to evangelize people when they are coming right to the door.
Way to go, Thinker!And way to go, Keith. Because you're not only a hearer of the Word….you are a doer of the Word!!
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.Press on towards the goal, brothers!! I'm cheering you on!!
Love,
MandyTo all,
Is the U.S. supporting paganism with the statue of the goddess of liberty they have in New York Harbor?
Why or Why not?
Hi KW,
Is the USA not of the world?
Did you expect her to be as a servant of God?
Jesus did not come to change the world but it is just the field he planted seeds into.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2009,09:08) To all, Is the U.S. supporting paganism with the statue of the goddess of liberty they have in New York Harbor?
Why or Why not?
The U.S. is a very mixed religious society where Pagans and non-pagans live side by side.The U.S. worships probably more things than any other place on the planet.
The belief in God is not compulsive.
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