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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 20 2009,09:54) Hi ST,
So because foolish people accept unlawful restrictions on their behaviour from religious people somehow this helps the case for pagan practces to be encouraged among christians?
Nick,
I posted this about 30 pages back:Quote Many have quoted scriptures supporting their view that halloween is evil, I'm not here to defend halloween, but I would like to address the use of scriptures. Exodus states: “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
But in Luke it states: 14Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.” 15The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?
What had happened? The synagogue ruler was quoting scripture… but he had added to its meaning, and the Lord Himself made it clear, that it was not what was intended.
The ruler felt he was “defending the faith” so I ask you to please take a step back and ask the Father if you are adding to His word. I am doing the same for my part.
I do want to be clear that I wish there was no such thing as halloween, for nearly 30 years I knew nothing about the “roots” of hollween and as I've stated before it's roots for me go no further then something I enjoyed as a kid. Now some are drawing lines to a dark past that for me I'm not sure exist (the lines not the dark past).
Is it right to make claims not supported by scripture? And as shown above, even when there is a scripture, are we reading more into it then what God had meant.
My kids are grown and we live out of town so we hardly ever get any visitors. We do donate candy to our church youth center which does an alternative celibration for kids. I'm not trying to defend my ability to “participate” in “pagan” rituals (not much to give up) I just do not see the connection just as Jesus did not see the connection of healing on the sabbath.
My opinion – Wm
Hi ST,
Those things that are good and wholesome and helpful-meditate on these things.
If ever there was a worldly celebration this halloween nonsense it it.
But then movies and fantasy in general is the food of the west.Nick,
I agree, my concern hasn't as much to do with halloween as with the judgments of character being made.Quote (Gene @ Oct. 20 2009,10:17) ST……..The history of cards is chance, even the apostles drew straws, but the issue Here is engaging in “PAGAN” practices, hardly the same thing, anything can be used wrong even driving a vehicle, drinking to much alcohol, but its history did not come from Evil Satanic worship Practices, there is a difference. And if we engage it how far should we then, As Isa 1:18 said where is the line at. Again this is not to condnm anyone I have done worse then this in my life. But still we should at least call like it is, don't you all agree? peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Gene,
Pagan is defined for the most part as non-christian, so cards not being “christian” are pagan, as are many things that surround us. I do agree that anything can be wrong and I would even go a step further and state that you could do something to honor God while my doing the same thing could be a sin. If I felt that giving kids candy on holloween crossed the line I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with someone, out of love, telling me of a concern and if clearly spelled out as a sin then be aggressive in correction. However if the activity in question is not clearly called out as a sin, then once you've voiced your concern leave it to God. I believe it is a bigger sin to make judgments then to participate non-defiantly in questionable activities.My opinion – Wm
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2009,10:10) Hi Seekingtruth: You say:
Quote Many churches teach on the evil of cards and forbid their adherents from even playing solitary. What churches do this? Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. Therefore, whatever we do, we do out of love for God and for humanity. When in authority in the church, I cannot forbid anyone from doing anything. I can only teach what I believe to be the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
The church I went to for 20 years taught it (you had to sign a document pledging not to play cards or go to movie prior to acceptance into membership. I agree I cannot force anyone (nor does God) to believe or do anything.My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 20 2009,17:12) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 20 2009,10:17) ST……..The history of cards is chance, even the apostles drew straws, but the issue Here is engaging in “PAGAN” practices, hardly the same thing, anything can be used wrong even driving a vehicle, drinking to much alcohol, but its history did not come from Evil Satanic worship Practices, there is a difference. And if we engage it how far should we then, As Isa 1:18 said where is the line at. Again this is not to condnm anyone I have done worse then this in my life. But still we should at least call like it is, don't you all agree? peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Gene,
Pagan is defined for the most part as non-christian, so cards not being “christian” are pagan, as are many things that surround us. I do agree that anything can be wrong and I would even go a step further and state that you could do something to honor God while my doing the same thing could be a sin. If I felt that giving kids candy on holloween crossed the line I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with someone, out of love, telling me of a concern and if clearly spelled out as a sin then be aggressive in correction. However if the activity in question is not clearly called out as a sin, then once you've voiced your concern leave it to God. I believe it is a bigger sin to make judgments then to participate non-defiantly in questionable activities.My opinion – Wm
Where in the world is that prove that playing cards is pagan. I have never heard of that. We play Cards all the time. My Husband and I. And on Sundays when we have Family Day, we play with our Kids. I believe if you play for Money, then I feel it can become wrong. But just for entertainment, that I find not wrong.
When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God, we were taught that when you play sports it can become wrong. But there too we played Cards with Church Members after the Sabbath.
IreneAll,
I am willing to concede something; Halloween's ancient roots are of evil nature. . . . I cannot escape the true meaning of the original festival. While it WAS indeed a time of one season ending and another beginning….the ancient folks DID believe in ghosts reappearing and their abilities to interact with these spirits. Magic was certainly involved. For the Christian, the facts stop there. –Mandy
Mandy, so what do you think this means for a Christian, or for anyone who wants to please God?
Quote It is you and everyone else that is making Oct 31st a different day or a special day for satan. Don't you think that would be giving credence and power to satan? –WJ
No, WJ, for me, Oct 31st is quite similar to Oct 30th. It's very similar to Oct 29th. It's astoundingly similar to Nov 15th, or Dec 18th.
For you, it is a special day. You've boughten the candy and perhaps are having a party. The tracts are ready. You've gotten your costumes. Sounds a lot like the things pagans were doing a thousand years ago, but with the addition of tracts.Which one of us gives more power to Satan? I, who treat a pagan celebration as though it didn't exist?
Or, you, who take that celebration and give it your own twist?hmmmm.
Quote He has admitted that the “Jesus” who appeared to the disciples was some other “spirit creature.” He has admitted also that he used Paul's “bad associations” statement out of context. –thinker.
thinker, is truth at all important in your world? I mean, do you care for it at all? Or is it just not your cup of tea?
First, I never said I took the “bad associations” scripture out of context. I said I accidentally combined those two very similar scriptures. I'm sorry. But the principle of bad association's rubbing off negatively on someone is still 100% true, without question.
Second, neither did I ever say Jesus was some “other spirit creature.”
Jesus is unquestionably a spirit being now. Right? The Bible says he was raised a spirit. Right? All those questions I asked that you can't answer should give you a hint. (ie: You ignore the truth.)Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,03:05) Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,04:23) Quote David does not deny the resurrection. –CON
Then why would Thinker continually say that I do, despite me telling him I don't deny the resurrection. Jesus certainly was “put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.”
DavidBecause you do not believe that Jesus “Body” was ressurected, is this true or not?
WJ
WJ, if I believe Jesus was indeed resurrected, and Thinker continually makes the statement that I “deny the resurrection” do you think this is extraordinarily misleading on Thinker's part?Quote You indeed deny the resurrection in saying that Jesus was raised as another “spirit creature.” –thinker.
Thinker, why do you keep saying “another” or “other” spirit creature, as though I believe Jesus was resurrected as someone else? You seem to think that Jesus was a body. Jesus, is a spirit being. He was before he came to the earth. He is now as well. He took on a body and gave that body up as a sacrifice. Do you think he took it back? Why don't you go and try to answer some of the questions I asked that I said you would never answer and have yet to do so.
Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)Do you think, THINKER, that he took that back?
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?
*******
Quote So lay off WJ about bad associations. You even admitted that you took Paul's statement out of context. –thinker.
THINKER, you are utterly insane in this comment!
You are asking me to “lay off WJ about bad associations.” Is reality a completely foreign concept to you?
Someone tells someone else to “lay off” of something when that person keeps mentioning it.
It is YOU who continually assert I am bad associaton. (over and over and over, 15 times now.) There was ONLY ONE post where I mentioned “bad associations” to WJ and that was in reply to him saying that Jesus spent time with sinners. But YOU tell ME to “lay off” WJ?
?thinker, how am I to understand your bizarre lack of reality?
Secondly, Thinker, bad associations do spoil useful habits. They do. The Bible says it. It's true. If you associate with bad people who have bad habits, you are likely to develop those same habits. And while you have repeatedly asserted that I took that scripture out of context, I NEVER DID! (Again, you are losing grip on reality.) The principle still stands. Yet, he was speaking of the resurrection. But that doesn't change the fact that bad associations (of any kind) do spoil useful habits. Thinker, your thoughts are not…normal. May I ask your age?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,02:32) Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,03:33) –WJ Then if it is the Lord's day, where is the honor due him? Should you not imitate the Lord if it is the Lord's day? Why imitate the world if it is the Lord's day? The 2 are directly opposed. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Jesus followers are “no part of the world.”
You know nothing of my motives, heart or conscience do you David?You guys go ahead and do as you please on Oct 31st and judge me if you like. But I am at liberty to give candy to innocent children who come to my door who know nothing of séances or worshipping the devil!
WJ
It is often at halloween that people are introduced to seances. (The two seem tied together somehow.) So, while these innocent children may know nothing of them, by supporting a holiday that advertises seances, how are you helping to keep them innocent?And I'm sorry, you are right. Of course I do not know your heart.
Nor do I know the heart of those who celebrated Oct 31st a thousand years ago. All I know is Jehovah hates paganistic practices. And to me, halloween seems to celebrate paganism in a more blatent way than any other worldly holiday.Quote Hi Paul Its more like “who should draw the line?”.
To me it is a matter of the heart and conscience.
WJ
Your conscience or the conscience of those who believe you are a Christian. Which is more important?
Quote (georg @ Oct. 20 2009,13:06) Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 20 2009,17:12) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 20 2009,10:17) ST……..The history of cards is chance, even the apostles drew straws, but the issue Here is engaging in “PAGAN” practices, hardly the same thing, anything can be used wrong even driving a vehicle, drinking to much alcohol, but its history did not come from Evil Satanic worship Practices, there is a difference. And if we engage it how far should we then, As Isa 1:18 said where is the line at. Again this is not to condnm anyone I have done worse then this in my life. But still we should at least call like it is, don't you all agree? peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Gene,
Pagan is defined for the most part as non-christian, so cards not being “christian” are pagan, as are many things that surround us. I do agree that anything can be wrong and I would even go a step further and state that you could do something to honor God while my doing the same thing could be a sin. If I felt that giving kids candy on holloween crossed the line I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with someone, out of love, telling me of a concern and if clearly spelled out as a sin then be aggressive in correction. However if the activity in question is not clearly called out as a sin, then once you've voiced your concern leave it to God. I believe it is a bigger sin to make judgments then to participate non-defiantly in questionable activities.My opinion – Wm
Where in the world is that prove that playing cards is pagan. I have never heard of that. We play Cards all the time. My Husband and I. And on Sundays when we have Family Day, we play with our Kids. I believe if you play for Money, then I feel it can become wrong. But just for entertainment, that I find not wrong.
When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God, we were taught that when you play sports it can become wrong. But there too we played Cards with Church Members after the Sabbath.
Irene
Irene,
That is my point. the scriptures do not say playing cards is pagan, even though pagans play them, they are associated with evil, and some have made connections between the two (and are just as adamant on this as you are on halloween). It is the same thought process being used to make playing bridge “evil”, that makes candy to kids “evil”, it just puts the line at a different level.With activities that in themselves do not directly violate the law of love, it is left to each person to determine where his or hers faith allows the “do not cross this line” to be put.
Do you ever drink too much? in this case crossing a line is clearly spelled out in scripture as a sin. Some choose to not drink at all, which is good, but if you tell others to not drink at all, because it is a sin, then you've said more than scripture. Now if you say you shouldn't even start and it's best avoided because of it's potential to draw you in deeper then you've warned the person and those listening and they will have to answer for what they do with the information. However in doing this I have shown my love through concern while not having passed judgment, leaving it to God, as He is able to make this person stand, where as if I pass judgment, then the beam in my eye will most likely knock them over.
My opinion – Wm
Quote
We don't have to think, wait a sec, I can't be generous because it is Halloween.–t8
T8, I don't think anyone is saying this.
T8, I love pumkin pie. I eat it whenever I can. I tell myself it's healthy. Yes, I am free to eat it on Oct 31 if I like. But, if someone who maybe half knows me sees me buying a pumkin pie the day before, would they not think that it is probably for “halloween”?
So, despite liking pumpkin pie and despite there being nothing intrinsically wrong with it, because I do not want to stumble anyone or give them the wrong idea, I forsake this little thing, and just avoid altogether things that are connected to that holiday.Which is more important: My freedom? Or how another person views Christianity?
All this talk of freedom seems very USA. 'No one better mess with my freedom.' Well, 'YOUR FREEDOM' is not as important as your brother, or someone who may some day be your brother. Other people are more important than YOUR freedom.
Or do you not see that?
Quote playing cards
I heard mormons don't use the court cards. They only use the ace to 10. The roman catholic church tried to ban playing cards a long time ago. Originally, they were only used by prostitutes, gamblers, etc. Today, 90% of playing cards are used for gambling. But, this is another subject.Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 20 2009,20:47) Quote (georg @ Oct. 20 2009,13:06) Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 20 2009,17:12) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 20 2009,10:17) ST……..The history of cards is chance, even the apostles drew straws, but the issue Here is engaging in “PAGAN” practices, hardly the same thing, anything can be used wrong even driving a vehicle, drinking to much alcohol, but its history did not come from Evil Satanic worship Practices, there is a difference. And if we engage it how far should we then, As Isa 1:18 said where is the line at. Again this is not to condnm anyone I have done worse then this in my life. But still we should at least call like it is, don't you all agree? peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Gene,
Pagan is defined for the most part as non-christian, so cards not being “christian” are pagan, as are many things that surround us. I do agree that anything can be wrong and I would even go a step further and state that you could do something to honor God while my doing the same thing could be a sin. If I felt that giving kids candy on halloween crossed the line I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with someone, out of love, telling me of a concern and if clearly spelled out as a sin then be aggressive in correction. However if the activity in question is not clearly called out as a sin, then once you've voiced your concern leave it to God. I believe it is a bigger sin to make judgments then to participate non-defiantly in questionable activities.My opinion – Wm
Where in the world is that prove that playing cards is pagan. I have never heard of that. We play Cards all the time. My Husband and I. And on Sundays when we have Family Day, we play with our Kids. I believe if you play for Money, then I feel it can become wrong. But just for entertainment, that I find not wrong.
When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God, we were taught that when you play sports it can become wrong. But there too we played Cards with Church Members after the Sabbath.
Irene
Irene,
That is my point. the scriptures do not say playing cards is pagan, even though pagans play them, they are associated with evil, and some have made connections between the two (and are just as adamant on this as you are on halloween). It is the same thought process being used to make playing bridge “evil”, that makes candy to kids “evil”, it just puts the line at a different level.With activities that in themselves do not directly violate the law of love, it is left to each person to determine where his or hers faith allows the “do not cross this line” to be put.
Do you ever drink too much? in this case crossing a line is clearly spelled out in scripture as a sin. Some choose to not drink at all, which is good, but if you tell others to not drink at all, because it is a sin, then you've said more than scripture. Now if you say you shouldn't even start and it's best avoided because of it's potential to draw you in deeper then you've warned the person and those listening and they will have to answer for what they do with the information. However in doing this I have shown my love through concern while not having passed judgment, leaving it to God, as He is able to make this person stand, where as if I pass judgment, then the beam in my eye will most likely knock them over.
My opinion – Wm
In my eyes that when we play Cards or if I dress my Kid in a devil outfit, is a completely different story. How can you or anybody else connect those two. If the pagan played card, what the heck, can that be the same then worshipping another God. Whatever Church you belonged to, I would never join. Let me ask you were is it written not to play Cards, It is written however that worship another God is idolatry, and an abomination to God. To me it is laughable to say the least.
IreneMandy has made mention that today halloween is made up of people who dress like baseball players, astronauts, etc.
I had stated that Demons, ghosts, goblins, witches, vampires where the maskots for halloween.I was in someone's house today (for work) and they had decorated it for halloween. And I didn't see any decorations of ballerina's. I saw cobwebs, witches, ghosts, etc. hmmmm.
Quote (georg @ Oct. 20 2009,16:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 20 2009,20:47) Quote (georg @ Oct. 20 2009,13:06) Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 20 2009,17:12) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 20 2009,10:17) ST……..The history of cards is chance, even the apostles drew straws, but the issue Here is engaging in “PAGAN” practices, hardly the same thing, anything can be used wrong even driving a vehicle, drinking to much alcohol, but its history did not come from Evil Satanic worship Practices, there is a difference. And if we engage it how far should we then, As Isa 1:18 said where is the line at. Again this is not to condnm anyone I have done worse then this in my life. But still we should at least call like it is, don't you all agree? peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Gene,
Pagan is defined for the most part as non-christian, so cards not being “christian” are pagan, as are many things that surround us. I do agree that anything can be wrong and I would even go a step further and state that you could do something to honor God while my doing the same thing could be a sin. If I felt that giving kids candy on halloween crossed the line I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with someone, out of love, telling me of a concern and if clearly spelled out as a sin then be aggressive in correction. However if the activity in question is not clearly called out as a sin, then once you've voiced your concern leave it to God. I believe it is a bigger sin to make judgments then to participate non-defiantly in questionable activities.My opinion – Wm
Where in the world is that prove that playing cards is pagan. I have never heard of that. We play Cards all the time. My Husband and I. And on Sundays when we have Family Day, we play with our Kids. I believe if you play for Money, then I feel it can become wrong. But just for entertainment, that I find not wrong.
When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God, we were taught that when you play sports it can become wrong. But there too we played Cards with Church Members after the Sabbath.
Irene
Irene,
That is my point. the scriptures do not say playing cards is pagan, even though pagans play them, they are associated with evil, and some have made connections between the two (and are just as adamant on this as you are on halloween). It is the same thought process being used to make playing bridge “evil”, that makes candy to kids “evil”, it just puts the line at a different level.With activities that in themselves do not directly violate the law of love, it is left to each person to determine where his or hers faith allows the “do not cross this line” to be put.
Do you ever drink too much? in this case crossing a line is clearly spelled out in scripture as a sin. Some choose to not drink at all, which is good, but if you tell others to not drink at all, because it is a sin, then you've said more than scripture. Now if you say you shouldn't even start and it's best avoided because of it's potential to draw you in deeper then you've warned the person and those listening and they will have to answer for what they do with the information. However in doing this I have shown my love through concern while not having passed judgment, leaving it to God, as He is able to make this person stand, where as if I pass judgment, then the beam in my eye will most likely knock them over.
My opinion – Wm
In my eyes that when we play Cards or if I dress my Kid in a devil outfit, is a completely different story. How can you or anybody else connect those two. If the pagan played card, what the heck, can that be the same then worshipping another God. Whatever Church you belonged to, I would never join. Let me ask you were is it written not to play Cards, It is written however that worship another God is idolatry, and an abomination to God. To me it is laughable to say the least.
Irene
Irene,
Why do people gamble? because they worship the almighty dollar, they've put their trust in it (they worship it). You have stated how ludacris it is to draw a line with cards, but I see it as the same thing as halloween (BTW I haven't attended that church in years and I never did believe it was wrong to play cards, or give kids candy).Now what part of giving a kid a piece of candy is “worshipping another god”
Let me ask you were it is written not to give kids candy on Oct 31?. Once you've told me where, I will be able to answer your question.I'm not trying to be a smart-alec but I'm reading accusations in replies to posts that are totally unsupported by what was posted. There also seems to be a lack of love for one another that we are to be known for… oh, that's right, we're devil worshippers by your reckoning.
I'm sorry if I offended you. I really appreciate some of your posts and thank God for you, I will leave this alone now, may God bless you.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (david @ Oct. 20 2009,15:56) Quote playing cards
I heard mormons don't use the court cards. They only use the ace to 10. The roman catholic church tried to ban playing cards a long time ago. Originally, they were only used by prostitutes, gamblers, etc. Today, 90% of playing cards are used for gambling. But, this is another subject.
Is it? Same principles apply.You're post, previous to the one quoted above, on pumpkin pie. So eating a pumpkin pie can cause someone to stumble? I like steaks, oops, I might make a vegan brother stumble. Where does it stop, there are people who believe mankind is a stain upon the earth, so should we not have babies least they should stumble? I believe that God expects us to use common sense on “what will cause a brother to stumble” otherwise who could bear the burden of not “offending” someone.
My opinion – Wm
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