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Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2009,13:44) I find it a little ironic that the talk of celebrating a holiday brought on talks of law keeping. Whenever you seek to restric people, they will want to be free all the more…..
Curious.
It goes that way with christians, they want there cake and eat it too!They say they are christians and Christ followers but the moment they see bible quotes they say thats old covenant, or were not restricted by the law.
They want to call Pagans pagan, but the moment you show them they follow the same holidays then they say they are protected by the new covenant, kinda weird don't you think?
Kinda like the new covenant allows them not to be Pagan but allows them to follow Pagan traditions at any level.
Funny one continually hears them preach the decalogue when rebuking, but then they say they are not bound to it.
And they call me a hypocrate for magnifying the Law of God.
I think they believe that sin no longer exists except when they wish to condemn any others in there belief systems.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 18 2009,02:33) TIM wrote:Le'ts not let the 21st century pharisees defile our consciences. Hebrews says that our consciences have been washed with clean water (10:22).
thinker
With water, eh?
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 18 2009,04:41) WorshippingJesus,Oct. wrote:[quote=Constitutionalist,Oct. 17 2009,12:32]
thethinker,Oct. wrote:[quote=david,Oct. 17 2009,12:05]
Quote David is a JW and the JW's deny the resurrection.
And your goal is to lure children with candy into the pagan temple.
Whoa! WJ has been talking about putting tracts into their baggies and having a Hallelujah party alternative at his local assembly.What are you talking about?
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,11:11) Quote Didn't Jesus eat and drink with publicans and sinners? WJ, he could also read peoples hearts. You are not Jesus.
The Bible says: “God is not one to be mocked. Bad association spoils useful habits.”
Quote Didn't Jesus eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
WJ, do you hang out at the bar and preach to people there? Just curious.
I just thought I should re-quote this post, since THINKER has made it the object of his last 10 pages of posts.Yes, I misquoted and accidentally put two scriptures together. I acknowledged that, right away when it was pointed out.
My only point is quoting: “bad association spoils useful habits” is that WJ had just said Jesus hung out with sinners.
My point was that Jesus is a little different from WJ. If you become friends with the world, you become “enemies of God.” So, while preaching to them is great, becoming friends with them and having parties with them is different.
If you spend all your time with smokers, you are much more likely to smoke.
If you spend all your time with lazy people, that can wear off.As the scriptural principle stated: Your association can have a negative impact on your good habits.
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,13:59) Quote This world and everything in it it and all days are God's just as WJ said. –thinker.
But there are some bad things in this world. And God hates those bad things. If you love the things God hates, are you a friend of God?
Why don't you go give Satan a hug. Satan is “God's” right?
Dress Satan up how you want, he is still Satan.
The Bible says that friends of the world are enemies of God.
Thinker, I know you've heard this scripture. You've maybe even read it:
(James 4:4-8) Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God. 5 Or does it seem to YOU that the scripture says to no purpose: “It is with a tendency to envy that the spirit which has taken up residence within us keeps longing”? 6 However, the undeserved kindness which he gives is greater. Hence it says: “God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones.” 7 Subject yourselves, therefore, to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from YOU. 8 Draw close to God, and he will draw close to YOU. Cleanse YOUR hands, YOU sinners, and purify YOUR hearts, YOU indecisive ones.
David, I am under the impression to them Satan and sin is dead. Therfore they can do anything they wish. They believe God abolished/Destroyed every single law in the Old Testament, and they do not even recognize that every single Law proffessed in the New Testament comes from the Old Testament. Sadder yet if you quote a New Testament Law they state they are not even beholding to it. I truly believe they believe they are spotless and with no blemish because all laws have been destroyed.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 18 2009,02:33) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 17 2009,22:04) For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse:for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them….but that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,The just shall live by faith, and the law is not of faith:Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. (Gal3-10)! You are self-righteous if you believe that anthing you do or don't do makes you better or worse in the eyes of God! You have nothing to do with the righteousness God provided in Jesus. Its a free gift to those who BELIEVE! Some are making up works of sin to follow so as to make a showing of their righteousness. They would be under the curse of the law! That goes for all SIN. Jesus took away our sin by faith or one is under the law.TK
TK,
Amen bro! Good post! The modern day pharisees on this board are just touting their own self-righteousness as the pharisees in Jesus' day did by disfiguring their faces to appear to be righteous before men.David says that WJ is keeping “bad associations” by giving candy to kiddies on halloween citing Paul out of context. Paul was talking about keeping away from those who deny the resurrection. This necessarily infers that David and the JW's are a “bad association” because the JW's deny the resurrection. Of course they will not directly deny the resurrection. If they did that they could not successfully sell their ware. But their “sales pitch” amounts to a denial of the resurrection. This is why Paul said “be not deceived, bad associations corrupt good habits.”
Why didn't Paul say what he said in the controversy concerning eating meats in an idol's temple? Some Christians felt it was wrong. Others thought it was okay. So why didn't Paul say about eating in an idol's temple, “Bad associations corrupt good habits?” This would have been the perfect opportunity for Paul to say this. If Paul had it would have left WJ without an explanation as to why he would give out candy on a so called pagan day. Instead Paul said, “it's okay, but don't do it if it causes your brother to stumble.”
So my point is not about the resurrection. My point is that the law of God points the finger at each and every one of us so none of us should judge the other man's conscience. David took a statement from Paul and indicted WJ for giving away candy on a so called pagan day. I took the same statement from Paul and showed that David is indicted as well concerning a truth that is crucial to the Christian faith. The chief difference is that I used Paul's statement in context while David did not. The modern day pharisees must twist the scriptures in order to make up their rules just as the pharisees did in Jesus' day.
Paul said that he could eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not cause his brother to stumble. If Paul can eat in a pagan temple then WJ can give candy to kiddies on halloween.
Le'ts not let the 21st century pharisees defile our consciences. Hebrews says that our consciences have been washed with clean water (10:22).
thinker
(underline and bold added)
See above post.
Understand that I believe in what the Bible says: 'Jesus was raised a spirit.'
And understand that I didn't actually say WJ was keeping bad associations. I was trying to show that in general, becoming friends with sinners is going to affect you adversely.Quote (david @ Oct. 18 2009,09:12) Quote Concerning your views on the resurrection I believe that you are “bad company” also. –THINKER.
So, you've said I was “bad company” like 6 or 7 times now. Do you only say things or do you act on what you believe?
Looking for martyrdom, eh?Fellowship and debate are two different things. There are plenty of people I wouldn't want over to my house for dinner that I would love to speak with about a myriad of issues and seek to both listen and persuade.
As usual, you let your emotions cloud your judgment.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 17 2009,14:20) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 18 2009,02:33) TIM wrote:Le'ts not let the 21st century pharisees defile our consciences. Hebrews says that our consciences have been washed with clean water (10:22).
thinker
With water, eh?
That is abit funny.Quote Paul said that he could eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not cause his brother to stumble. If Paul can eat in a pagan temple then WJ can give candy to kiddies on halloween. –THINKER (BOLD ADDED)
You didn't finish the LOGIC, THINKER.
You forgot the “as long as it did not cause his brother to stumble.” If you add this to the very end, you'd have a complete thought.
But what would that complete thought lead to? What conclusion?
Does this stumble anyone? Clearly, it does. If I considered THINKER to be a Christian, I would be stumbled. Luckily, I don't. But others might get the impression he was a Christian. And I know many would be stumbled. By his own words earlier, what must thinker do?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 17 2009,14:22) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 18 2009,04:41) WorshippingJesus,Oct. wrote:[quote=Constitutionalist,Oct. 17 2009,12:32]
thethinker,Oct. wrote:[quote=david,Oct. 17 2009,12:05]
Quote David is a JW and the JW's deny the resurrection.
And your goal is to lure children with candy into the pagan temple.
Whoa! WJ has been talking about putting tracts into their baggies and having a Hallelujah party alternative at his local assembly.What are you talking about?
Read the whole thing.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 18 2009,09:25) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,13:59) Quote This world and everything in it it and all days are God's just as WJ said. –thinker.
But there are some bad things in this world. And God hates those bad things. If you love the things God hates, are you a friend of God?
Why don't you go give Satan a hug. Satan is “God's” right?
Dress Satan up how you want, he is still Satan.
The Bible says that friends of the world are enemies of God.
Thinker, I know you've heard this scripture. You've maybe even read it:
(James 4:4-8) Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God. 5 Or does it seem to YOU that the scripture says to no purpose: “It is with a tendency to envy that the spirit which has taken up residence within us keeps longing”? 6 However, the undeserved kindness which he gives is greater. Hence it says: “God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones.” 7 Subject yourselves, therefore, to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from YOU. 8 Draw close to God, and he will draw close to YOU. Cleanse YOUR hands, YOU sinners, and purify YOUR hearts, YOU indecisive ones.
David, I am under the impression to them Satan and sin is dead. Therfore they can do anything they wish. They believe God abolished/Destroyed every single law in the Old Testament, and they do not even recognize that every single Law proffessed in the New Testament comes from the Old Testament. Sadder yet if you quote a New Testament Law they state they are not even beholding to it. I truly believe they believe they are spotless and with no blemish because all laws have been destroyed.
Not destroyed, but fulfilled. I can't speak for what WJ and TT believe. But if you ever get a chance to pick up a Catholic Catechism you will find it organized along the lines of the ten commandments and the creed. If you get a chance to go to a Catholic or Orthodox church you will see the fulfillment of Synagogue (Liturgy of the Word) and fulfillment of Temple (Liturgy of the Eucharist).Protestants forsook the latter and tried to extend the former.
Why did they forsake the priesthood in the order of Melchisedek?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 17 2009,14:26) Quote (david @ Oct. 18 2009,09:12) Quote Concerning your views on the resurrection I believe that you are “bad company” also. –THINKER.
So, you've said I was “bad company” like 6 or 7 times now. Do you only say things or do you act on what you believe?
Looking for martyrdom, eh?Fellowship and debate are two different things. There are plenty of people I wouldn't want over to my house for dinner that I would love to speak with about a myriad of issues and seek to both listen and persuade.
As usual, you let your emotions cloud your judgment.
I didnt see that as the way you perceived it.TT has been tossing the same rhetoric at him numerous times, and David is right, maybe TT should not associate with him.
Just my opinion.
Unless your subliminally seeding something?
Hi Con
Man you really botched up that post.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) So the policeman according to you should quit their jobs rather than take part in patrolling the streets? Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
I made no claim on what they should do. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS. If they are led by the Spirit then they WILL do what is right. If you were led by the Spirit we may not be having this conversation, but you becken to your worldly lusts.
What do you know about me to accuse me of beckoning to worldly lust?Accusing the brethren or making false accusations is not of the Spirit of God. But we do know who the accuser of the brethren is!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Do you want to explain how I would be giving it life by gathering together with my family or church and dressing up as Bible Characters and having fun with kids and giving them candy? Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Just be honest, you worship halloween, many do, your not alone. Many give it a makeover like you suggest, they have been doing it for centuries.
Another patronizing and “ACCUSING” remark from the Spirit of the anti-Christ!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Let’s see how that works. When you pay for internet service to come here and preach legalism you give all those porn companies life by supporting the cable companies that allow that filth on the internet for free. Or when you pay your cable or satellite TV companies for service then you are also providing moneys to help support those “R” and “X” rated movies.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Actually they are promoted and make money off sponsors, that is why I give service only to sponsors I like.
Oh I see, so your internet provider and your TV provider are sponsors? So the money you pay to them does not support them to provide service to showing wicked movies or porn on line?Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
My freedom is legalism to you, your freedom is sinful and wicked to me, seems we just have different views.
Legalism is the worst kind of sin and wickedness, just read Jesus rebukes to the Pharisaical hypocrites!Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
And you are the only one making excuses for all these things to exist, I merely wish for them to begone. Hmmn things to ponder.
I make no excuses for the worldly practice of Halloween. But I am free to celebrate whatever day I want and however I want as long as I am within Gods moral compass. And that is a matter of the heart and conscience.But it seems that you only want to “Judge” the hearts and conscience of those who differ with you on how to use their time on Oct 31st, and as I said the scriptures warn us about people like you…
”WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVANT? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; “another man considers every day alike”. Each one should be “fully convinced in his own mind. Rom 14:4, 5
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Thanks, it is commendable. Why give notice to Wal-Mart knowing that they support gay rights to marry and all kinds of humanistic purposes by buying their products that come from organizations that support all kinds of “Non-Christian” practices like abortion. You do know that most of the products at Wal-mart come from communist China where they worship Buddha, don't you?
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Actually I do not support wallymart, I figured that would have been apparent to you by now, I buy American wherever and whenever I can.
No, that was not apparent to me not unless I was a mind reader. So you and your family and friends never go into Wally world? If your family or friends go into Wally world do you preach to them that they are sinning for supporting abortion gay rights and Buddhism, or is that when the Hypocrisy kicks in?So there is nothing in your house that was made in China?
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
And if they support Gay rights, Abortion, The War, Atheists, etc. . . They don’t get my money. Pretty simple.
Not true, your tax dollars support them. Also when you give your internet and TV provider money you help provide a venue for the Gays, Abortionist, Pornographers, and Atheist to promote their agenda on the internet! Like I said maybe you should become a monk or something!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Ok, so you only worship God on Saturday, right? ”EVERY DAY WILL I BLESS THEE; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever”. PS 145:2
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
I do that as well
, as well as worship Him, but I also keep his Sabbath, I find it no problem that you find God's Sabbath offensive, legalistic, for me it is a blessing. Pretty bad strawman argument.
Offensive? Not at all! Legalistic, Yes. All the law is fulfilled in this…
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself. Gal 5:14Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) So you are one of those that Paul warned us against… “Therefore do not LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU BY WHAT YOU EAT OR DRINK, or WITH REGARD TO A RELIGIOUS FESTIVAL, A NEW MOON CELEBRATION OR A SABBATH DAY”. Col 2:16
Every day belongs to God our creator my friend! Jesus now has all Authority and Power over all the enemy!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Actually if you would have noticed that is dealing with the ceremonial Sabbath, not the weekly Sabbath, thus the new moons and festivals. So in actuality it does not support your argument, it supports theirs telling them not to worry about those who judge them. Good try though!
Please show us where the word “ceremonial” is found in the text!The Greek word for Sabbath is “Strong's G4521 – sabbaton and it means;
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
b) a single sabbath, sabbath dayWhenever the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned “sabbaton” is always the word used. But you want to add to the text “ceremonial” and change the meaning of the text.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Why do you think Abraham, Moses, David all found GRACE? They kept all them (legalistic) outward precipts? Because maybe they understood that the inward change allowed them to keep those things through FAITH.
Sounds like legalistic double talk to me, because you are mixing the words “grace” and “faith” with the keeping of the Law. If they kept the law perfectly then there is no need for grace for they are justified by their works.Abraham didn’t have the law and was justified by faith!
”ALL WHO RELY ON OBSERVING THE LAW ARE UNDER A CURSE, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith”.* THE LAW IS NOT BASED ON FAITH”; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them. Gal 3:10-12
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
How did the Pharisees get it wrong? They kept all those (legalistic) outward precipts? They had no inward change, they had no FAITH in Gods GRACE, they felt the law itself saved them, while their painted fences were rotton.
Legalism is rotten because it puts new wine into old wine skins. It’s mixing the Old with the New.”ALL WHO RELY ON OBSERVING THE LAW ARE UNDER A CURSE, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith”.* THE LAW IS NOT BASED ON FAITH”; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them. Gal 3:10-12
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
I doubt you can understand that, because if you did, you would not be on the attack, thus is the reason he defended the jews on there “Therefore do not LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU BY WHAT YOU EAT OR DRINK, or WITH REGARD TO A RELIGIOUS FESTIVAL, A NEW MOON CELEBRATION OR A SABBATH DAY”. Col 2:16 and why he defend the Gentiles on NOT being circimsized.
Exactly, just as he is defending those who are “NOT” keeping the Sabbath.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Maybe someday you will understand.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) And that is your choice isn’t it! I don’t judge you for that, and neither should you judge others who do not agree with you! Col 2:16 Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
One mans condemnation is anothers mans judgement, another mans judgement is another mans condemnation.
I like the scriptures better than philosophical gibberish to justify judgment on another.“You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. Rom 14:10
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Why should I do away with “Gods day” and the time he has given me to reach the world?
Are you prepared to say that your way of reaching the world is the only way?Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Why do you keep calling its God's Day, man created THAT DAY.It is my only way.
Man created the day? I don’t see man in the book until the 6th day. Since when did man cause the sun to rise and fall
? Funny!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) And why should I deny the day that the Lord has made? As far as painting a rotten fence, I see the rottenness of legalism being painted here! Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Admit it, you just can't come out of her.
I came out of her 54 years ago! Oh you mean dead religion that still keeps the Old Covenant!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
The Lord created the Heavens and the Earth in SEVEN days, he did not create days, he created the sun, stars and moon for times and seasons, we created the rest.
He did not create days?
Well then I guess David and Jesus were lying?Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was “MADE FOR MAN, not man for the Sabbath. Mk 2:27
This is the day “THE LORD HAS MADE”; let us rejoice and be glad in it. Ps 118:24Did I just hear you say that God did not create “ALL THINGS”? Yep, you just said that time is greater than God and he did not create the days.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
But bare in mind he did take the seventh day for himself, he hollowed it, sanctified it, and rested in it. No other day of the week follows this sanctification or hollowedness.
Yes and our “hallowedness” is found in Christ who is the fulfillment of the Law and the Sabbath.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Apparently you do not know what that means, for to you it means just stick your head in the sand as you command everyone else to do the same or else they are sinning! Let’s just do nothing but tell the world they are going to hell! Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Never called you a sinner, nor did I say you were going to hell, must be your inner spirit speaking with you.
Well that is good to hear, however should I assume that if I do not observe the “Sabbath” as you do then I am sinning? Or if I choose to differ with you on the way I do or do not observe “Halloween” then is that sin? Your implications seem to be so!Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
In fact my head used to be in the sand, but through Jesus it came out, and I can see clearly.
Good, then what makes you think that others may not see also, even though they may not agree with you?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Read the scriptures friend. We have entered into the Sabbath rest when we entered into Christ. Every day is the “Lords Day”! Do you believe this? Or do you believe that God only has one day and the devil has all the rest? Heb 4:1-7 Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Read that carefully again, Hebrews there is defending that rest the Sabbath rest also read on to verse 16, the Sabbath still stands. He saying just like you many in the days of old refuse to keep the Sabbath because of their disbelief.
Huh? Your statement doesn’t agree with this…For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Heb 4:10
You are still trying to be justified by the works of the law.
But with Jesus’ atonement, and justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), we no longer are required to keep the Law and hence the Sabbath which was only a shadow of things to come (Col. 2:16-17). We are not under Law, but grace (Rom. 6:14-15). The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus because in Him we have rest (Matt. 11:28). We are not under obligation to keep the Law and this goes for the Sabbath as well.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) D The Irony is starting to get to me? Smells like Hypocrisy!Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
I hold none of those traditions.
Good for you! You are making progress!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) Do you go out with your family on family events? Do you ever play games with them? Does that edify the Lord? Or should I be your judge in that? Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
We camp, hike, kayak, picnic, travel, ride our horses, and work the ranch, those are the games we play. Oh and I like to hunt and fish. Occasionally we go out to dinner.
Fantastic! So you do observe some of the worlds practices!Quote (Constitu
tionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Judge what you wish.
I thought that was why you created this thread!Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Holloween does not edify the Lord.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) You mean the worldly celebration of it! Oct 31st belongs to the Lord and not man!
So you do as you feel God wants from you and I will do the same.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Actually Oct 31st is a MANmade tradition in any shape or form, God did not make halloween.
No the practices of Oct 31st is manmade, but the day Oct the 31st is not a man made tradition. And man did not create the day.Oh that’s right I forgot, you do not believe that God causes the sun to rise on the just and on the unjust, for you believe he did not create all things. But the scriptures disagree with you!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,15:24)
So is God dead?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2009,17:53) No but self righteous man made rules and regulations are. Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 16 2009,19:50)
Most worldly people don't take to kind to rules and regulations.
Good for them for not following self righteous man made rules and regulations to run their lives!Blessings WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 18 2009,09:32) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 17 2009,14:26) Quote (david @ Oct. 18 2009,09:12) Quote Concerning your views on the resurrection I believe that you are “bad company” also. –THINKER.
So, you've said I was “bad company” like 6 or 7 times now. Do you only say things or do you act on what you believe?
Looking for martyrdom, eh?Fellowship and debate are two different things. There are plenty of people I wouldn't want over to my house for dinner that I would love to speak with about a myriad of issues and seek to both listen and persuade.
As usual, you let your emotions cloud your judgment.
I didnt see that as the way you perceived it.TT has been tossing the same rhetoric at him numerous times, and David is right, maybe TT should not associate with him.
Just my opinion.
Unless your subliminally seeding something?
Do we “associate” with the people we refute?Maybe we see this term differently.
A Catholic Halloween
From: The FathersAt this time of year the question often arises about the celebration of Halloween by Catholics. Is it, for instance, “pagan” to dress up and go about as ghosts and goblins? The question often comes up because many modern Christians (mostly non-Catholic ones) believe that Halloween has something to do with worshipping the Devil and participating in witchcraft. The truth is that the origins of Halloween are rooted deeply in the theology and popular customs of Catholics.
It is a revision of actual history to say that our modern celebration of Halloween has origins in Druid customs. It is true that the ancient Celts celebrated a major feast (the Celtic New Year) on October 31st, but the fact is that they celebrated a festival on the last day of almost every month. Halloween,” a contraction of “All Hollows Eve,” falls on October 31st because the Feast of All Saints or “All Hallows” falls on November 1st. The feast in honor of all the Saints used to be celebrated on May 13th, but Pope Gregory III, in 731, moved it to November 1st, the dedication day of All Saints Chapel in St. Peter's in Rome. This feast spread throughout the world. In 998, St. Odilo, the abbot of the powerful monastery of Cluny in France, added a celebration on November 2nd. This was a day of prayer for the souls of all the faithful departed. Therefore, the Church had a feast of the Saints and those in Purgatory.
It was the Irish Catholics who came up with the idea to remember somehow those souls who did not live by the Faith in this life. It became customary for these Irish to bang on pots and pans on All Hallow's Eve to let the damned know that they were not forgotten. In Ireland, then, all the dead came to be remembered. This, however, is still not exactly like our celebration of Halloween. On Halloween we also dress up in costumes. This practice arose in France during the 14th and 15th centuries. During the horrible bubonic plague, the Black Death, Europe lost half of her population. Artists depicted this on walls to remind us of our own mortality. These pictures and representations are known as the “Dance of Death” or “Dance Macabre.” These figures were commonly painted on cemetery walls and showed the Devil leading a daisy chain of people into the tomb. Sometimes the dance was re-enacted on All Soul's Day as a living tableau, with people dressed up as the dead. But the French dressed up on All Souls, not Halloween, and the Irish, who celebrated Halloween, did not dress up. The two were brought together in the colonies of North America during the 18th century, when Irish and French Catholics began to intermarry. Thus, the two celebrations became mingled, and we began dressing up on Halloween.
“Trick-or-Treating” is a very odd addition to Halloween. It is the (unwilling) contribution of English Catholics. Guy Fawkes Day became a great celebration against Catholics in England. It celebrated the day on which the plot to blow up Parliament and King James I was discovered. This was on November 5, 1605. Guy Fawkes was the rather reckless man guarding the gunpowder. He was arrested and hanged. During these times of persecution of the Catholic Church, bands of revelers would wear masks and visit Catholics in the night demanding they be given cakes and beer. Guy Fawkes Day arrived in the American colonies with the first English settlers. Old King James had long been forgotten, but “Trick-or-Treating” was too much fun to give up. Eventually, it moved to the Irish/French Catholic masquerade. This practice of “Trick-or-Treating” was simply moved to coincide with the Catholic celebration involving dressing up. The ancient Druids did contribute the candy, which was used to welcome the good spirits, and masks (jack o'lanterns), which were used to scare away the evil spirits.
Halloween can still serve the purpose of reminding us about Hell and how to avoid it. Halloween is also a day to prepare us to remember those who have gone before us in Faith, those already in Heaven and those still suffering in Purgatory. Halloween is a time to let people know about our Catholic roots and significance. Catholic parents who are not comfortable with the worst secular aspects of Halloween, which are admittedly increasing, can avail themselves of alternative activities on that day: family prayer and fasting for the Vigil of All Saints Day, visitations of houses in the garments of non-devilish personae, the reading aloud of stories of the Saints or of seasonal literature such as Edgar Allen Poe's The Masque of the Red Death and Washington Irving's The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, and the playing of seasonal music such as Saint-Saens Danse Macabre, Modest Moussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain, and Sergei Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead.
A word of caution, however. The Church has always condemned as sins against the First Commandment, and thus cautioned her children to stay far away from, astrology, charms, divination, fortune-telling, magic, ouija boards, sorcery, spells, witchcraft, and other occult activities, even if they are treated in a trivial or jesting fashion. St. Thomas Aquinas says that it is not permitted to Christians even to dabble in such things: “Man has not been entrusted with power over the demons to employ them to whatsoever purpose he will. On the contrary, it is appointed that he should wage war against the demons. Hence, in no way is it lawful for man to make use of the demons' help by compacts — either tacit or express” (IIa-IIae, Q96, Art. 3). We remember too the the Prayer to St. Michael against Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo [Satan and the other evil spirits who roam in the world for the ruin of souls]. As in all things, parents must be sure to teach their children the proper balance in such matters, erring neither on the side of defect or excess.
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,16:47) Quote When you can explain to me how getting together with family and friends or meeting with a church group and dress up in bible charactors or play games and give kids candy is immoral or wrong then you have a point.
WJ, not sure if you have answered this on some page in the future, but I've asked it before:What exactly do you do on halloween?
And why do you do these things on that day? Is it you that chose that day, or are you doing it because that's the day HALLOWEEN is?
Does it seem to you you are doing it in HONOR of halloween. Does it seem you are doing it BECAUSE of halloween?Another question, WJ, and I'd like an answer.
To you, an idol is nothing, and oiji boards probably mean nothing and torot cards, etc.
Do you decorate your house with these things just to make some kind of point about freedom?If God hates something, we should shun it, not try to do that thing that he hates, but in our own manner. Would you agree?
DavidLike I have already said…
Why dont you give me a scripture that says God hates “Oct 31st and Gods people coming together and dressing their kids like Bible Charactors and giving them candy and playing games.
The world uses the day for evil. I use the day for good.
The world uses the Internet for evil, I use the internet for Good.
Surely this is not to hard for you to understand that I am free to use the day as I want with a clear conscience and knowing I am not celebrating the evils of the world!
But have at it. If you think it is sin, then for you to do what I do would be sin. But don't try to take away my liberty in Christ and judge me as partaking in sin when you have no scriptural basis for what I do or don't do. You are not my judge and do not know me or my conscience!
Don't try to force me to follow your practices for Oct 31st or your rules and laws concerning it the day!
WJ
WJ show me where God created the Greco-Roman calendar?
WJ show me where God created the Egyptian Calendar?
WJ show me where God created the Lunar Calendars?
WJ show me where God created the Mayan Calendar?
Was it God or:
The Greeks named the days week after the sun, the moon and the five known planets, which were in turn named after the gods Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Aphrodite, and Cronus.
The Greeks called the days of the week the Theon hemerai “days of the Gods”.
The Romans substituted their equivalent gods for the Greek gods, Mars, Mercury, Jove (Jupiter), Venus, and Saturn.
The Germanic peoples generally substituted roughly similar gods for the Roman gods, Tiu (Twia), Woden, Thor, Freya (Fria), but did not substitute Saturn.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 17 2009,14:40) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 18 2009,09:32) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 17 2009,14:26) Quote (david @ Oct. 18 2009,09:12) Quote Concerning your views on the resurrection I believe that you are “bad company” also. –THINKER.
So, you've said I was “bad company” like 6 or 7 times now. Do you only say things or do you act on what you believe?
Looking for martyrdom, eh?Fellowship and debate are two different things. There are plenty of people I wouldn't want over to my house for dinner that I would love to speak with about a myriad of issues and seek to both listen and persuade.
As usual, you let your emotions cloud your judgment.
I didnt see that as the way you perceived it.TT has been tossing the same rhetoric at him numerous times, and David is right, maybe TT should not associate with him.
Just my opinion.
Unless your subliminally seeding something?
Do we “associate” with the people we refute?Maybe we see this term differently.
Quote Do we “associate” with the people we refute? Thats a tough one I see politicians do it daily.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,14:48) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,16:47) Quote When you can explain to me how getting together with family and friends or meeting with a church group and dress up in bible charactors or play games and give kids candy is immoral or wrong then you have a point.
WJ, not sure if you have answered this on some page in the future, but I've asked it before:What exactly do you do on halloween?
And why do you do these things on that day? Is it you that chose that day, or are you doing it because that's the day HALLOWEEN is?
Does it seem to you you are doing it in HONOR of halloween. Does it seem you are doing it BECAUSE of halloween?Another question, WJ, and I'd like an answer.
To you, an idol is nothing, and oiji boards probably mean nothing and torot cards, etc.
Do you decorate your house with these things just to make some kind of point about freedom?If God hates something, we should shun it, not try to do that thing that he hates, but in our own manner. Would you agree?
DavidLike I have already said…
Why dont you give me a scripture that says God hates “Oct 31st and Gods people coming together and dressing their kids like Bible Charactors and giving them candy and playing games.
The world uses the day for evil. I use the day for good.
The world uses the Internet for evil, I use the internet for Good.
Surely this is not to hard for you to understand that I am free to use the day as I want with a clear conscience and knowing I am not celebrating the evils of the world!
But have at it. If you think it is sin, then for you to do what I do would be sin. But don't try to take away my liberty in Christ and judge me as partaking in sin when you have no scriptural basis for what I do or don't do. You are not my judge and do not know me or my conscience!
Don't try to force me to follow your practices for Oct 31st or your rules and laws concerning it the day!
WJ
Jesus, said get behind me Satan!Con
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,17:17) I think they believe that sin no longer exists except when they wish to condemn any others in there belief systems.
This is exactly the reason you created this thread.No one here says to you don't keep the Sabbath. That is your right. We are not saying you are sinning or condemning you for that.
Nobody here is telling you not to hideaway on Halloween, or condemning you for it.
But you are the one condemning us for our manner of life for not following you!
WJ
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