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Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,16:52) Quote (georg @ Oct. 16 2009,21:33) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 17 2009,15:35) Irene, to me, it is not a law, it is love.
kol tuv (all the best to you)
You are not making sense. It was Love that Christ died for us. That is the covenant that we are under. And are you keeping the whole law? Of course not. Ja, das habe ich gedacht, guten Tag.
Irene
I do not think you understood her.The law is focused around love. (Mt 22:36-40 compare Lev 19:18 and Dt 6:5)
Commandments 1-4 define our relationship of love to God.
Commandments 5-10 define our relationship of love to other people.
The law is perfect. (Ps 19:7, Jas 1:25 compare Jas 2:11,12)
The law is eternal. (Ps 111:7,8, Ps 119:143,144,152 compare Ex 25:16,21, Ps 119:160 compare Lev 26:46)
The law is unchangeable. (Dt 4:2, Ps 89:34, Mt 5:17-20 (context Mt 5:21,27,38, compare Heb 4:15), Lk 16:17 (context Lk 16:18))
If the law could be changed, Jesus would not have had to die for us. (Ro 4:25, 1Pe 2:24)
The law reveals God's love. (Mt 22:37-40, Ro 13:8-10) (compare 1Jn 4:8)
The law reveals God's truth. (Ps 119:142,151) (compare Jn 14:6)
Our obedience and our works are a natural result of genuine faith in Jesus and love for God. (Ps 119:97-104, Jn 14:15,21, 1Jn 5:3)
The law is written on our heart. (Ps 37:30,31, Ps 40:8, Jer 31:33, Eze 11:19,20, Eze 36:26,27, Mt 15:1-3,7-9, Ro 2:14,15, Heb 8:10 compare 2Co 3:3, Heb 10:16)
Love is the essence of the law. (Dt 6:4,5, Lev 19:18, Mt 7:12, Mt 22:35-40, see also Mk 12:28-31, Mt 23:23,24, Ro 13:8-10, 1Jn 5:2, 2Jn 1:5,6 (compare Jn 13:34)
We are blessed by keeping the law. (Dt 6:24, Ps 19:8, Pr 3:1,2, Pr 29:18, Isa 48:18)
Shabbat Shalom uMevorach
You are still keeping the Sabbath, and that was a sign between Israel and God and not us. We are not Jews.
IreneQuote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,17:53) Quote I never debated whether or not Halloween has it's roots (or some of them anyway) in Pagan tradition. A lot of things have their roots there. AND I'll go a bit further (but why? it's my grave) the Pagans, that is, before Christianity hit the scene, were peaceful people – farmers mainly. For the most part their practices were peaceful, but because they wouldn't convert to Christianity their deeds were labled “wicked”. –Mandy
I think it's the worship of false gods that is the problem. If paganism is your thing, and you don't care what God thinks or you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then nothing can be said to you against halloween.
But if you say you care what God thinks, it matters that God strongly dislikes the worship of other gods. He hates the religious practices that go with it. This is what matters.A silly illustration. Your parents gave birth to you. You should give them respect and look to them. If instead, you give all of your attention to the family dog, and basically look up to the dog for wisdom and councel…. what would your parents think?
You can worship the sun if you want, or a dog or whatever. But if you care what God thinks, then don't say he doesn't care about such things.david
This is absolutely ridiculous, David!Since when does celebrating Halloween now mean that you worship other “gods”? Goodness, are you making this stuff up as you go along? That is no where near any origins I've read.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,12:14) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 16 2009,19:02) ATTENTION CONSTITUTIONALIST: Paul said that the sabbath was merely a “shadow” and Christ was the “substance.” Hebrews says that when the substance appears the shadow is done away. Those who reinstitute the sabbath are in violation of God's new covenant with man. Christ Himself is our sabbath rest. You are just as guilty in keeping the sabbath alive as those transferred it to another day. The sabbath was not changed to another day. It was abolished altogether.
Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until ALL be fulfilled. Circumcision was abolished. This means a jot and tittle has passed from the law. This means that ALL the law was fulfilled. Therefore, the sabbath has been abolished.
When will you legalists learn that more condemnation comes to you than to those who you think are condemned?
thinker
JackAmen!
Our Sabbath rest is in Christ!
WJ
We are under grace and not the law
Ephesians 2:8-9Irene
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2009,18:08) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,17:53) Quote I never debated whether or not Halloween has it's roots (or some of them anyway) in Pagan tradition. A lot of things have their roots there. AND I'll go a bit further (but why? it's my grave) the Pagans, that is, before Christianity hit the scene, were peaceful people – farmers mainly. For the most part their practices were peaceful, but because they wouldn't convert to Christianity their deeds were labled “wicked”. –Mandy
I think it's the worship of false gods that is the problem. If paganism is your thing, and you don't care what God thinks or you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then nothing can be said to you against halloween.
But if you say you care what God thinks, it matters that God strongly dislikes the worship of other gods. He hates the religious practices that go with it. This is what matters.A silly illustration. Your parents gave birth to you. You should give them respect and look to them. If instead, you give all of your attention to the family dog, and basically look up to the dog for wisdom and councel…. what would your parents think?
You can worship the sun if you want, or a dog or whatever. But if you care what God thinks, then don't say he doesn't care about such things.david
This is absolutely ridiculous, David!Since when does celebrating Halloween now mean that you worship other “gods”? Goodness, are you making this stuff up as you go along? That is no where near any origins I've read.
I never said that Mandy. I said that paganism involved that. I wasn't really talking about halloween at all, but about pagans. You had said that pagans are peaceful. I responded by saying, ok, but it's the worship of false gods that is the problem.Quote (georg @ Oct. 16 2009,23:05) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,16:52) Quote (georg @ Oct. 16 2009,21:33) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 17 2009,15:35) Irene, to me, it is not a law, it is love.
kol tuv (all the best to you)
You are not making sense. It was Love that Christ died for us. That is the covenant that we are under. And are you keeping the whole law? Of course not. Ja, das habe ich gedacht, guten Tag.
Irene
I do not think you understood her.The law is focused around love. (Mt 22:36-40 compare Lev 19:18 and Dt 6:5)
Commandments 1-4 define our relationship of love to God.
Commandments 5-10 define our relationship of love to other people.
The law is perfect. (Ps 19:7, Jas 1:25 compare Jas 2:11,12)
The law is eternal. (Ps 111:7,8, Ps 119:143,144,152 compare Ex 25:16,21, Ps 119:160 compare Lev 26:46)
The law is unchangeable. (Dt 4:2, Ps 89:34, Mt 5:17-20 (context Mt 5:21,27,38, compare Heb 4:15), Lk 16:17 (context Lk 16:18))
If the law could be changed, Jesus would not have had to die for us. (Ro 4:25, 1Pe 2:24)
The law reveals God's love. (Mt 22:37-40, Ro 13:8-10) (compare 1Jn 4:8)
The law reveals God's truth. (Ps 119:142,151) (compare Jn 14:6)
Our obedience and our works are a natural result of genuine faith in Jesus and love for God. (Ps 119:97-104, Jn 14:15,21, 1Jn 5:3)
The law is written on our heart. (Ps 37:30,31, Ps 40:8, Jer 31:33, Eze 11:19,20, Eze 36:26,27, Mt 15:1-3,7-9, Ro 2:14,15, Heb 8:10 compare 2Co 3:3, Heb 10:16)
Love is the essence of the law. (Dt 6:4,5, Lev 19:18, Mt 7:12, Mt 22:35-40, see also Mk 12:28-31, Mt 23:23,24, Ro 13:8-10, 1Jn 5:2, 2Jn 1:5,6 (compare Jn 13:34)
We are blessed by keeping the law. (Dt 6:24, Ps 19:8, Pr 3:1,2, Pr 29:18, Isa 48:18)
Shabbat Shalom uMevorach
You are still keeping the Sabbath, and that was a sign between Israel and God and not us. We are not Jews.
Irene
You were not grafted into the vine?Ahavat HaEmet
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,18:14) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2009,18:08) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,17:53) Quote I never debated whether or not Halloween has it's roots (or some of them anyway) in Pagan tradition. A lot of things have their roots there. AND I'll go a bit further (but why? it's my grave) the Pagans, that is, before Christianity hit the scene, were peaceful people – farmers mainly. For the most part their practices were peaceful, but because they wouldn't convert to Christianity their deeds were labled “wicked”. –Mandy
I think it's the worship of false gods that is the problem. If paganism is your thing, and you don't care what God thinks or you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then nothing can be said to you against halloween.
But if you say you care what God thinks, it matters that God strongly dislikes the worship of other gods. He hates the religious practices that go with it. This is what matters.A silly illustration. Your parents gave birth to you. You should give them respect and look to them. If instead, you give all of your attention to the family dog, and basically look up to the dog for wisdom and councel…. what would your parents think?
You can worship the sun if you want, or a dog or whatever. But if you care what God thinks, then don't say he doesn't care about such things.david
This is absolutely ridiculous, David!Since when does celebrating Halloween now mean that you worship other “gods”? Goodness, are you making this stuff up as you go along? That is no where near any origins I've read.
I never said that Mandy. I said that paganism involved that. I wasn't really talking about halloween at all, but about pagans. You had said that pagans are peaceful. I responded by saying, ok, but it's the worship of false gods that is the problem.
So you assume that Pagans worship false gods? Please consider that Pagans do not worship anything…… The Celtics were basically organic farmers who worshiped the earth, if nothing else. Anyway, I'm too tired to row with you (although it's fun).Have a good night,
MandyPaganism:
[L. paganismus: cf. F. paganisme. See Pagan, and cf. Painim.]
The state of being pagan; pagan characteristics; esp., the worship of idols or false gods, or the system of religious opinions and worship maintained by pagans; heathenism.Although people now sometimes call anyone who doesnt' believe in the God of the Bible as pagan, that is not really what the word means, especially as used in the Bible. A pagan is someone who worships false gods.
So to say that pagans aren't that bad is…..to say that the God of the Bible is wrong in denouncing false gods and those who worship them.
Quote (georg @ Oct. 16 2009,23:05) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,16:52) Quote (georg @ Oct. 16 2009,21:33) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 17 2009,15:35) Irene, to me, it is not a law, it is love.
kol tuv (all the best to you)
You are not making sense. It was Love that Christ died for us. That is the covenant that we are under. And are you keeping the whole law? Of course not. Ja, das habe ich gedacht, guten Tag.
Irene
I do not think you understood her.The law is focused around love. (Mt 22:36-40 compare Lev 19:18 and Dt 6:5)
Commandments 1-4 define our relationship of love to God.
Commandments 5-10 define our relationship of love to other people.
The law is perfect. (Ps 19:7, Jas 1:25 compare Jas 2:11,12)
The law is eternal. (Ps 111:7,8, Ps 119:143,144,152 compare Ex 25:16,21, Ps 119:160 compare Lev 26:46)
The law is unchangeable. (Dt 4:2, Ps 89:34, Mt 5:17-20 (context Mt 5:21,27,38, compare Heb 4:15), Lk 16:17 (context Lk 16:18))
If the law could be changed, Jesus would not have had to die for us. (Ro 4:25, 1Pe 2:24)
The law reveals God's love. (Mt 22:37-40, Ro 13:8-10) (compare 1Jn 4:8)
The law reveals God's truth. (Ps 119:142,151) (compare Jn 14:6)
Our obedience and our works are a natural result of genuine faith in Jesus and love for God. (Ps 119:97-104, Jn 14:15,21, 1Jn 5:3)
The law is written on our heart. (Ps 37:30,31, Ps 40:8, Jer 31:33, Eze 11:19,20, Eze 36:26,27, Mt 15:1-3,7-9, Ro 2:14,15, Heb 8:10 compare 2Co 3:3, Heb 10:16)
Love is the essence of the law. (Dt 6:4,5, Lev 19:18, Mt 7:12, Mt 22:35-40, see also Mk 12:28-31, Mt 23:23,24, Ro 13:8-10, 1Jn 5:2, 2Jn 1:5,6 (compare Jn 13:34)
We are blessed by keeping the law. (Dt 6:24, Ps 19:8, Pr 3:1,2, Pr 29:18, Isa 48:18)
Shabbat Shalom uMevorach
You are still keeping the Sabbath, and that was a sign between Israel and God and not us. We are not Jews.
Irene
The Sabbath is not just for the Jews, but rather for all men. (Mk 2:27)Marriage was also instituted at creation (Ge 2:21-24) and is also not just for the Jews.
At Mevina'
Quote The Celtics were basically organic farmers who worshiped the earth, if nothing else. The druids worshiped trees, the evergreen. They worshiped or highly reverred anything that didn't loose it's foilage (holly, mistletoe, etc)
Mandy, do you think “worshipping” the earth is wrong according to God's standards?
“Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. “
Do you think God likes when people give undue honor to creation rather than him? What does this scripture say?
“According to the dictionary, a pagan is defined as one who is not. Not a Christian. Not a Muslin. Not a Jew. Even as one with no religion at all. (American Heritage Dictionary)
However, Paganism is defined as a “state of being pagan the worship of idols or false gods a system of religious opinions and worship maintained by pagans heathenism”. (Webster's Unabridged Dictionary) No wonder the issue is so confusing!”
http://searchwarp.com/swa5584.htmQuote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,18:21) Paganism: [L. paganismus: cf. F. paganisme. See Pagan, and cf. Painim.]
The state of being pagan; pagan characteristics; esp., the worship of idols or false gods, or the system of religious opinions and worship maintained by pagans; heathenism.Although people now sometimes call anyone who doesnt' believe in the God of the Bible as pagan, that is not really what the word means, especially as used in the Bible. A pagan is someone who worships false gods.
So to say that pagans aren't that bad is…..to say that the God of the Bible is wrong in denouncing false gods and those who worship them.
Apparently the term has evolved some….No I don't think worshipping the created instead of the Creator is right. But I was just trying to say that basically these folks were into appreciating the earth and living in harmony with it – using natural resources and so on. They weren't setting the earth up as a “god”.
I'll have to dig up some of my sources and share them so they get equal time here. It just takes some effort, which I confess I haven't been willing to give lately here. It just seems all so useless sometimes.
Okay, off to bed for real this time.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2009,23:19) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,18:14) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2009,18:08) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,17:53) Quote I never debated whether or not Halloween has it's roots (or some of them anyway) in Pagan tradition. A lot of things have their roots there. AND I'll go a bit further (but why? it's my grave) the Pagans, that is, before Christianity hit the scene, were peaceful people – farmers mainly. For the most part their practices were peaceful, but because they wouldn't convert to Christianity their deeds were labled “wicked”. –Mandy
I think it's the worship of false gods that is the problem. If paganism is your thing, and you don't care what God thinks or you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then nothing can be said to you against halloween.
But if you say you care what God thinks, it matters that God strongly dislikes the worship of other gods. He hates the religious practices that go with it. This is what matters.A silly illustration. Your parents gave birth to you. You should give them respect and look to them. If instead, you give all of your attention to the family dog, and basically look up to the dog for wisdom and councel…. what would your parents think?
You can worship the sun if you want, or a dog or whatever. But if you care what God thinks, then don't say he doesn't care about such things.david
This is absolutely ridiculous, David!Since when does celebrating Halloween now mean that you worship other “gods”? Goodness, are you making this stuff up as you go along? That is no where near any origins I've read.
I never said that Mandy. I said that paganism involved that. I wasn't really talking about halloween at all, but about pagans. You had said that pagans are peaceful. I responded by saying, ok, but it's the worship of false gods that is the problem.
So you assume that Pagans worship false gods? Please consider that Pagans do not worship anything…… The Celtics were basically organic farmers who worshiped the earth, if nothing else. Anyway, I'm too tired to row with you (although it's fun).Have a good night,
Mandy
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Ex 20:3)“Thou”
To whom is this command addressed?
To the Jews only?
To a select group of predetermined individuals?
To human beings only?
Its scope is universal. (Isa 45:23, Ro 14:11)
“me”
Who is the true God?
There is only one true God. (Isa 43:10, 1Co 8:4-6)
Jesus is one with the Father. (Jn 10:30, Jn 14:9)
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. (Ro 8:9)
The true God is One. (Dt 6:4,5)
God is Love. (1Jn 4:8)
True love must be united as one (One God).
The 4th commandment further identifies the true God. (Ex 20:8-11, Ex 31:16,17)
God is the Creator. (Rev 14:6,7)
“gods”
There are other so-called “gods”. (1Co 8:5,6)
God – “1. The Supreme Being; Jehovah; the eternal and infinite spirit, the creator, and the sovereign of the universe.
4. Any person or thing exalted too much in estimation, or deified and honored as the chief good.” (Webster's Dictionary 1828)
Objects or beings of worship and devotion. (Ge 35:2-4, Jer 17:5)
Objects or beings of priority – “before me”. (2Ti 3:1-4, Php 3:18,19, 1Jn 2:16)
Beings who attempt to usurp God's throne. (Rev 12:7,8, Isa 14:12-14, Eze 28:13-17, Mt 4:8-10, 1Co 10:20,21)
“have”
Having another god may be through direct or indirect worship. (Rev 13:1-4) (compare Rev 12:7-9, 1Ti 4:1, 2Th 2:7-11)
The Punishment for Disobedience is Death
The punishment for disobedience is death. (Ex 22:18, Ex 22:20, Lev 20:27, Dt 13:1-5, Dt 13:6-10, Dt 17:2-5, Ro 6:23, Jas 2:10)
Note on Ex 22:18 and Lev 20:27:
Witch – “A woman who by compact with the devil, practices sorcery or enchantment.” (Webster's Dictionary 1828)
Sorcery – “Magic; enchantment; witchcraft; divination by the assistance or supposed assistance of evil spirits, or the power of commanding evil spirits.” (Webster's Dictionary 1828)
Wizard – “A conjurer; an enchanter; a sorcerer.” (Webster's Dictionary 1828)
Conjure – “to engage supernatural influence; as, to conjure up evil spirits. … to use arts to engage the aid of spirits in performing some extraordinary act.” (Webster's Dictionary 1828)
Enchanter – “one who has spirits or demons at his command.” (Webster's Dictionary 1828)
Compare Modern Babylon's sorceries. (Rev 18:1-5,23)
As our substitute, Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. (Isa 53:6, Jn 1:29, Eph 5:2, Heb 7:27, Heb 10:5-10)
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,22:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,11:58) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2009,19:54) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,11:11) Quote Didn't Jesus eat and drink with publicans and sinners? WJ, he could also read peoples hearts. You are not Jesus.
The Bible says: “God is not one to be mocked. Bad association spoils useful habits.”
Quote Didn't Jesus eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
WJ, do you hang out at the bar and preach to people there? Just curious.
Oh! I love this!!Okay, well, we can't read hearts and minds but Jesus was/is our example after all. Right? So if he ate with sinners then we can eat with sinners.
Um, ya, I've gone into bars to witness to people. I've also been seen at our local womens prison. A few times I've been on the streets of Seattle – in the gutters – under bridges.
You go where the people are, David. We are His arms and legs….we are Christs ambassadors. Through us, Christ is preached, people are healed, joy comes to the broken-hearted.
I have an overwhelming sense of peace right now that God has called me to the lowly…..the undesirables. Thank you, Lord. I'm right where I should be. So cool.
Most wouldn't be caught dead going into a bar to reach the souls there…… you're right, David.
Love,
Mandy
True MandyI have witnessed to men in bars also.
How is that sin, unless I am getting drunk with them?
I can imitate their drinking by having a coke!
WJ
Hi WJ:What if someone who knows that you are a Christian sees you going in a bar, and believes that you are going in there to drink since that is what those who frequent those places do?
Personally, I will not go into a bar to witness because of this, and also, because those who are drunk may react in many different ways. They might not take kindly to someone coming in there to witness to them.
The best way to witness is through the life that we live in obedience to the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyI am sorry, but to me your God is not big enough.
Jesus sat down and ate with publicans and sinners and we should be able to follow his footsteps right?
If I know a brother is watching and has a problem with me going into the bar then for conscience sake I will not go.
As far as a Christian seeing me, well I am not worried about there salvation for they are saved.
If they judge me then I will let God take care of that.
Should we live life to please men or God?
WJ
Quote So you assume that Pagans worship false gods? Please consider that Pagans do not worship anything…… Pagan [paganus, latin] originally meant simply a dweller in a rural community, but since those country people were often the last to be converted, it came to be used by city dwellers as applying to all who did not adopt their professed Christian beliefs. In a similar way the term “heathen” at first meant simply one who lived out on the “heath” or field.
So that's where the word started. But many dictionaries say that paganism involves the worship of idols or gods.
And, when I was using the word pagan in speaking of halloween, I was speaking of those who had the day of the dead, those who had the religious belief that on that day, the spirit world and our world come together and the dead return.Quote As far as a Christian seeing me, well I am not worried about there salvation for they are saved. (Romans 15:1) We, though, who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those not strong, and not to be pleasing ourselves.
“Make this your decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping.” “It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.”–Rom 14
WJ, the writer of that verse seemed worried about it. Shouldn't you be concerned about it also?
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,01:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,11:44) Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,19:27) Quote Where did WJ say that he “embraces” halloween? He said that October 31 is the Lord's day. The pagans do not own so much as one day of the year. –Thinker.
And how does he celebrate the “lord's day” Oct 31? Does he do it on his terms, or on THEIR terms? Does he imitate THEM? If you say he's not imitating them, then I ask, why that day? Why not Oct 14th? Or Nov 27th? He seems to be taking THEIR thing and trying to change it.
But taking a glass of poison and adding pure water does not make it pure. Or do you think it does?
DavidYou argument is circular.
You imitate many things the world does that is evil.
The world drives cars!
David drives cars!
David keeps the speed limit!
The world doesn't!
The world watches pornography on the internet.
David watches a video clip of his family on the internet!
The world sins david does not!
There are many more examples of men using things for evil that we can use for good! Get the point?
WJ
WJ, I get what you're saying.A knife can be used to spread butter, or it can be used to kill. I understand that. But I don't see this as a knife, something that has a common use and can be used this way or that. I see this as more of a bomb, built and designed by the enemy, with one purpose in mind. And you can wrap a bow on it, but it is still dangerous.
Quote There are many more examples of men using things for evil that we can use for good! Get the point? WJ, how do you feel about things being “tainted”? Is anything considered “in bad taste” in your mind?
DavidWhen you can explain to me how getting together with family and friends or meeting with a church group and dress up in bible charactors or play games and give kids candy is immoral or wrong then you have a point.
If it is only the day then again the argument fails because the day is the Lords and not mans as some here presume.
The Lord causes the sun to rise on the just and the unjust.
God created the days not man!
WJ
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,02:48) Quote As far as a Christian seeing me, well I am not worried about there salvation for they are saved. (Romans 15:1) We, though, who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those not strong, and not to be pleasing ourselves.
“Make this your decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping.” “It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.”–Rom 14
WJ, the writer of that verse seemed worried about it. Shouldn't you be concerned about it also?
DavidWhy dont you read my whole post and then retract yours!
WJ
Hi CON,
Just as Jesus has become one with the Father in the Spirit so you too can be joined with that Spirit of Jesus and God.
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