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- georg,Oct. wrote:
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We are not under that law anymore, and as Gentiles we never were. It was a covenant that God made with Israel.
Exodus 31:16-17 :Therefor the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generation as a perpetual covenant.who is Israel Irene?
Rev 7:4 I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of Israel
Rev 21:12 It had a large, high wall with twelve gates. Twelve angels were at the gates, and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates.
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verse 17 “It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…….
forever is a long time Irene,Quote
When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God we too kept the Sabbath. We have learned a lot since then.
some keep Sabbath as the Pharisees did, added to it then adding more.Quote
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God.
verse 9 not of works, lest you should boast.
no boasting, just resting.Quote
Luke 22:20…..”This cup is the new covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.”amen, sister. without the blood of Christ, as time has passed, it is hard to tell what the Sabbath would of become.
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In the old testament time, they had to make atonement for their sins and had to kill an animal for that.i understand, it was teaching my son this that was the hard part.
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Also if you want to keep te law, you have to keep the whole Law.which is?
love Yahweh, with all my might, strength……Quote
Romans 5:4 “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.justify also means righteous, law means norm. this is for the ones that did not stop sacrifice, not sabbath keeping, if you continue to sacrifice for your sins, you have fallen from grace.
Quote
Romans 5:3 And I testify again , to every man who becomes circumcised that you are debtors to keep the whole law.the heart is now circumcised, Yes?
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Every man in the old Testament times became circumcised. Is that what you want to do too.No, I am girl, why would I?
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In today's society all boy babies do get circumcised, for cleanliness's only.some do some don't, this is the choice of the parent, there is no law that states I have to have my son circumcised, and I will not discuss the matter of my son, to anyone, no offense, that is his and his only to discuss.
peace and love to you and georg.
Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 16 2009,20:35) Irene, to me, it is not a law, it is love.
kol tuv (all the best to you)
I agree. Barchot veTefillot. Now I understand your name
Princess to the King! Achoti 
Av HaRoeh beSeter Baruch Shem Kivod Malchuto LeOlam Va'ed
Ron
Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 17 2009,15:35) Irene, to me, it is not a law, it is love.
kol tuv (all the best to you)
You are not making sense. It was Love that Christ died for us. That is the covenant that we are under. And are you keeping the whole law? Of course not. Ja, das habe ich gedacht, guten Tag.
IreneQuote (georg @ Oct. 16 2009,21:33) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 17 2009,15:35) Irene, to me, it is not a law, it is love.
kol tuv (all the best to you)
You are not making sense. It was Love that Christ died for us. That is the covenant that we are under. And are you keeping the whole law? Of course not. Ja, das habe ich gedacht, guten Tag.
Irene
I do not think you understood her.The law is focused around love. (Mt 22:36-40 compare Lev 19:18 and Dt 6:5)
Commandments 1-4 define our relationship of love to God.
Commandments 5-10 define our relationship of love to other people.
The law is perfect. (Ps 19:7, Jas 1:25 compare Jas 2:11,12)
The law is eternal. (Ps 111:7,8, Ps 119:143,144,152 compare Ex 25:16,21, Ps 119:160 compare Lev 26:46)
The law is unchangeable. (Dt 4:2, Ps 89:34, Mt 5:17-20 (context Mt 5:21,27,38, compare Heb 4:15), Lk 16:17 (context Lk 16:18))
If the law could be changed, Jesus would not have had to die for us. (Ro 4:25, 1Pe 2:24)
The law reveals God's love. (Mt 22:37-40, Ro 13:8-10) (compare 1Jn 4:8)
The law reveals God's truth. (Ps 119:142,151) (compare Jn 14:6)
Our obedience and our works are a natural result of genuine faith in Jesus and love for God. (Ps 119:97-104, Jn 14:15,21, 1Jn 5:3)
The law is written on our heart. (Ps 37:30,31, Ps 40:8, Jer 31:33, Eze 11:19,20, Eze 36:26,27, Mt 15:1-3,7-9, Ro 2:14,15, Heb 8:10 compare 2Co 3:3, Heb 10:16)
Love is the essence of the law. (Dt 6:4,5, Lev 19:18, Mt 7:12, Mt 22:35-40, see also Mk 12:28-31, Mt 23:23,24, Ro 13:8-10, 1Jn 5:2, 2Jn 1:5,6 (compare Jn 13:34)
We are blessed by keeping the law. (Dt 6:24, Ps 19:8, Pr 3:1,2, Pr 29:18, Isa 48:18)
Shabbat Shalom uMevorach
Imagine what the world would be like if everyone obeyed all the commandments.
The commandments are protecting walls, each commandment is indispensable.
Satan's widespread deceptions concerning God's law:
Satan tells us: “You need not obey God's law.”
The implication being: “So take it off your list of priorities.”
Satan tells us: “You cannot obey God's law.”
The implication being: “So stop feeling guilty about habitual sin.”
Satan tells us: “You should not obey God's law.”
The implication being: “So keep away from all teachings that uplift God's law.”
We should keep God's law more and more, rather than less and less.
Mah She BaTuach, BaTuach
Quote Am I correct in saying that you deny the resurrection David? –Thinker.
No, you are again incorrect. But what fascinates me is I've told you this and stated it extremely clearly now a few times. Yet, you continue to assert this bizarre lie. I'm telling you, that I don't deny the resurrection. I think what you must be thinking of is, I, based on the evidence believe Jesus sacrificed his human body of flesh and was resurrected a spirit who took on human form. But, I still unquestionably believe he was resurrected. If you want to get into why I believe he was resurrected a spirit, fine. But this is obviously not the place, is it?
Quote No, this thread is about people who want to pigeon-hole Halloween being evil and wicked only – where all the scriptures that relate to keeping bad company and being yoked with un-believers is paramount. –mandy
I found this very simple explanation of what halloween's origins are in the “simple” wikipedia:
“Origins
The word Halloween is from Hallowe'en. This is a contraction of All Hallow's Eve. All Hallow's Eve is the day before the Catholic holiday All Saints holy day. All Saints holy day was once called All Hallows. This was short for All Hallowed Souls. Hallowed means holy.
This holiday All Saints holy day was made by Christian missionaries. It was the same day as a Pagan holiday. The missionaries came to areas where Pagans lived. They tried to make the Pagans believe in Christianity. So they made some Pagan holidays into Christian holidays.
The Pagan holiday that All Saints holy day replaced was the Day of the Dead. Many Wiccans and modern Pagans celebrate the Day of the Dead. This is a happy holiday (even though it says 'Dead'). It is the day that the souls of dead people come back to Earth. So in Pagan religions it is not about scary things. It is about being with (remembering) family or friends who have died.”
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/HalloweenBut the souls of dead people do not come back to life on that day. It's a false religious teaching.
The immortality of the soul is a false teaching, not in the Bible.Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,22:08) Quote So shouldn't we avoid you my man? –thinker.
Yes, Thinker. Please do.
Giggling here.
Sorry 
Chabdeihu Vechoshdeihu
Quote David,
I did not say anything about your beliefs in halloween one way or the other. I was trying to show that you are a bad association yourself so stop being judgmental.You said that “no one here believes that.” What are you saying by this?
Thinker, I was saying that you're the only one here (myself included) who thinks that I don't believe in the resurrection. So, in your words “stop being judgmental.” I would also include: Stop spreading false ideas about what I believe.
This is kind of a catch 22 for you. If what you said was true, I am bad association and so as you yourself said, you should not talk to me. But if decide to accept that I know what I believe and the resurrection is among what I believe, then you can talk to me, but it means you repeatedly accused me of something wrongly.
Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,22:12) Quote No, this thread is about people who want to pigeon-hole Halloween being evil and wicked only – where all the scriptures that relate to keeping bad company and being yoked with un-believers is paramount. –mandy
I found this very simple explanation of what halloween's origins are in the “simple” wikipedia:
“Origins
The word Halloween is from Hallowe'en. This is a contraction of All Hallow's Eve. All Hallow's Eve is the day before the Catholic holiday All Saints holy day. All Saints holy day was once called All Hallows. This was short for All Hallowed Souls. Hallowed means holy.
This holiday All Saints holy day was made by Christian missionaries. It was the same day as a Pagan holiday. The missionaries came to areas where Pagans lived. They tried to make the Pagans believe in Christianity. So they made some Pagan holidays into Christian holidays.
The Pagan holiday that All Saints holy day replaced was the Day of the Dead. Many Wiccans and modern Pagans celebrate the Day of the Dead. This is a happy holiday (even though it says 'Dead'). It is the day that the souls of dead people come back to Earth. So in Pagan religions it is not about scary things. It is about being with (remembering) family or friends who have died.”
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/HalloweenBut the souls of dead people do not come back to life on that day. It's a false religious teaching.
The immortality of the soul is a false teaching, not in the Bible.Quote But the souls of dead people do not come back to life on that day. It's a false religious teaching.
The immortality of the soul is a false teaching, not in the Bible.Absolutly correct!
HaMa'eiven Yavin
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,11:40) David Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,18:55) But WJ, why IMITATE the actions and conduct of religious beliefs and observances that God hates?
Are you prepared to say that Christians invented the internet? If not then why would you imitate the ungody that hang around blogs and evil porn sites by comming here?You can see the difference can't you. You do get the point don't you?
WJ
I know what you're trying to say, but it's wrong.It would be better to compare it to hanging around an internet site run by pagans, invented by pagans, to celebrate pagan things, in a pagan manner.
And you would say: 'But I can help them, by celebrating and joining in, but doing paganism my way.'
That is a better comparison.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,11:44) Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,19:27) Quote Where did WJ say that he “embraces” halloween? He said that October 31 is the Lord's day. The pagans do not own so much as one day of the year. –Thinker.
And how does he celebrate the “lord's day” Oct 31? Does he do it on his terms, or on THEIR terms? Does he imitate THEM? If you say he's not imitating them, then I ask, why that day? Why not Oct 14th? Or Nov 27th? He seems to be taking THEIR thing and trying to change it.
But taking a glass of poison and adding pure water does not make it pure. Or do you think it does?
DavidYou argument is circular.
You imitate many things the world does that is evil.
The world drives cars!
David drives cars!
David keeps the speed limit!
The world doesn't!
The world watches pornography on the internet.
David watches a video clip of his family on the internet!
The world sins david does not!
There are many more examples of men using things for evil that we can use for good! Get the point?
WJ
WJ, I get what you're saying.A knife can be used to spread butter, or it can be used to kill. I understand that. But I don't see this as a knife, something that has a common use and can be used this way or that. I see this as more of a bomb, built and designed by the enemy, with one purpose in mind. And you can wrap a bow on it, but it is still dangerous.
Quote There are many more examples of men using things for evil that we can use for good! Get the point? WJ, how do you feel about things being “tainted”? Is anything considered “in bad taste” in your mind?
Quote Why don't you show us how gathering with family and friends or a church group to have a Christian celebration on Oct 31st is wrong? –wj
It's not. Celebrating halloween is. Celebrating halloween, but trying to do it your way…is.
Quote So what is it that makes it sin as long as we are not partaking of the worlds ways?
I've never asked you this. I should have. So, what do you do on Oct 31?Quote Therefore, they deny the physical resurrection of Christ. –thinker.
Well why don't I start saying you deny the spiritual resurrection of Christ? I think I'm going to start doing that.
Anyway, you seem to want to discuss this in the wrong thread.
MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”Even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion.
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Thinker, to say we don't believe in Jesus resurrection is absurd. We believe exactly what the above scripture states: Jesus was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
Here's a fun scripture you'll try really hard to ignore:
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course, discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”Thinker, I want you to THINK really really hard about that last line. Why would they need courage to ask who he was if he had the same face, if it was obviously him?
Over and over, in these accounts, we find that it is when he broke bread (apparently he did it distincly) that people recognized him.
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
Anyway, Thinker, you shouldn't be reading this, because I apparently am bad association and you yourself continue to state half truths about what I believe.
So yes, for the record, now that we have that straight, I believe Jesus was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” as scripture states. So yes, I believe he was resurrected.
Can we go back to halloween? Or are you going to answer why they needed courage to ask who he was? I didn't think so.
david.
Quote I never debated whether or not Halloween has it's roots (or some of them anyway) in Pagan tradition. A lot of things have their roots there. AND I'll go a bit further (but why? it's my grave) the Pagans, that is, before Christianity hit the scene, were peaceful people – farmers mainly. For the most part their practices were peaceful, but because they wouldn't convert to Christianity their deeds were labled “wicked”. –Mandy
I think it's the worship of false gods that is the problem. If paganism is your thing, and you don't care what God thinks or you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then nothing can be said to you against halloween.
But if you say you care what God thinks, it matters that God strongly dislikes the worship of other gods. He hates the religious practices that go with it. This is what matters.A silly illustration. Your parents gave birth to you. You should give them respect and look to them. If instead, you give all of your attention to the family dog, and basically look up to the dog for wisdom and councel…. what would your parents think?
You can worship the sun if you want, or a dog or whatever. But if you care what God thinks, then don't say he doesn't care about such things.david
Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,22:45) Quote Therefore, they deny the physical resurrection of Christ. –thinker.
Well why don't I start saying you deny the spiritual resurrection of Christ? I think I'm going to start doing that.
Anyway, you seem to want to discuss this in the wrong thread.
MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”Even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion.
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Thinker, to say we don't believe in Jesus resurrection is absurd. We believe exactly what the above scripture states: Jesus was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
Here's a fun scripture you'll try really hard to ignore:
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course, discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”Thinker, I want you to THINK really really hard about that last line. Why would they need courage to ask who he was if he had the same face, if it was obviously him?
Over and over, in these accounts, we find that it is when he broke bread (apparently he did it distincly) that people recognized him.
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
Anyway, Thinker, you shouldn't be reading this, because I apparently am bad association and you yourself continue to state half truths about what I believe.
So yes, for the record, now that we have that straight, I believe Jesus was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” as scripture states. So yes, I believe he was resurrected.
Can we go back to halloween? Or are you going to answer why they needed courage to ask who he was? I didn't think so.
david.
Do you think a man whom uphold the Pagan festivals would except your view of the resurrection?Your view of the resurrection made perfect sense.
Bar Tziyon
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,17:13) Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,22:08) Quote So shouldn't we avoid you my man? –thinker.
Yes, Thinker. Please do.
Giggling here. Sorry Chabdeihu Vechoshdeihu
The thing is, he won't!Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,17:57) Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,22:45) Quote Therefore, they deny the physical resurrection of Christ. –thinker.
Well why don't I start saying you deny the spiritual resurrection of Christ? I think I'm going to start doing that.
Anyway, you seem to want to discuss this in the wrong thread.
MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”Even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion.
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Thinker, to say we don't believe in Jesus resurrection is absurd. We believe exactly what the above scripture states: Jesus was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
Here's a fun scripture you'll try really hard to ignore:
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course, discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”Thinker, I want you to THINK really really hard about that last line. Why would they need courage to ask who he was if he had the same face, if it was obviously him?
Over and over, in these accounts, we find that it is when he broke bread (apparently he did it distincly) that people recognized him.
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
Anyway, Thinker, you shouldn't be reading this, because I apparently am bad association and you yourself continue to state half truths about what I believe.
So yes, for the record, now that we have that straight, I believe Jesus was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” as scripture states. So yes, I believe he was resurrected.
Can we go back to halloween? Or are you going to answer why they needed courage to ask who he was? I didn't think so.
david.
Do you think a man whom uphold the Pagan festivals would except your view of the resurrection?Your view of the resurrection made perfect sense.
Bar Tziyon
Personally, from some of the things “thinker” has posted, I'm actually surprised that he believes in the resurrection.
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