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Quote It truly amazes me when people say that the wicked will burn in flames forever and ever and feel every bit of it while screaming for all eternity. Then there's us who are saved and living in eternal bliss in God whilst totally ignoring this other part of God's creation that is in the most horendous torment forever. Those who preach this say it like it is nothing and I am sure that they do not realise what they say. Surely this is much much worse than the western world turning a blind eye to the starving. While we live in comfort they are perishing for lack of food. If this eternal suffering doctrine were true then how can any righteous person enjoy themselves knowing that anyone suffers like this.
This thought from t8 is on page 7 of the “hell” thread. We haven't really brought up this thought but it has always been in the back of my mind: How can the righteous be at peace knowing the wicked are being tortured?
To put it in terms we can understand: Think of the crimes Hitler's regime committed. How could a good person in one room be happy and content while someone in the next room was having their skin peeled off by a sadistic torturer to be used for lampshades? If you found yourself in that room, or even down the street or even in the next town where you couldn't hear the screams, would you not still be deeply troubled? Would you be happy, with a smile on your face?
david.
Quote (david @ Dec. 01 2005,07:46) So it's a slow burn?
Not a very effective fire, is it?
Why not just let the beast and the false prophet die from the ravages of old age?A beast [which represents something] and a false prophet [which represents something] are thrown into a lake of fire [which represents something].
I'm curious why you think that the beast and false prophet are still being destroyed 1000 years after being thrown into the lake of fire.
Please explain.Quote A body would take seconds but who knows how long for a soul?
Again, Adam BECAME a soul. He WAS a soul. The soul is the person or the life of the person (or animal).
If it would take a body a few seconds, then by what the Bible says, it would take a soul (person or life) a few seconds.Your concept of “destruction” seems much more like “punishment” or torture. According to 2 Thess 1:9, the “punishment” or penelty is the eternal destruction.
The punishment is destruction (or loss of life).
Actually, the punishment is eternal destruction, (with no hope of life ever again).
This is what the Bible says. It says it rather clearly.
Hi davdi,
The beast and the false prophet are people.
Rev 19.20f
” And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophetwho performed the signs in his presence, by which he decieved those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image;these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone”
Rev 20 4
“… and they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 yrs. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 yrs were completed.”Rev 20.10
” And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE ALSO”Eternal destruction is not instant destruction david.
Destruction of a body is instantaneous. The destruction of who we are within that tent, our soul, is not the same at all.
I understand you do not like what the bible says but should we make up our own doctrines?
Also from t8 on the same page:
Quote I cannot condone this eternal suffering in Hell doctrine. Not only is it distasteful to me, but I have yet to see it taught in scripture. I see the opposite. I see destruction of the wicked. Eternal detruction. In other words they will be destroyed and will always remain that way for all eternity. We use the word 'destroy' all the time, but I have never heard anyone use it in the context that some use it in the eternal hell doctrine.
Nick, you just mentioned that the beast and the false prophet will be destroyed in the lake of fire OVER A PERIOD OF A THOUSAND YEARS.
To destroy is to “put out of existence.”
If the punishement for the wicked given by God is “eternal destruction,” if destruction is the punishment, or if being put out of existence is the punishment, and they are not really put out of existence until the thousand years are ended, then they are not really punished until the end of the thousand years.
But none of this is what the Bible says.
The punishment is destruction with no hope of coming back. This destruction (being put out of existence) IS the punishment.david.
Quote Eternal destruction is not instant destruction david.
So if God wants to punish someone by eternally destroying them, it takes him a thousand years?I'm sorry, where does it say the beast and the false prophet were still around at the end of the thousand years.
Thankyou Nick. I'm not sure what we would move on to. This is the hades/hell thread and we are discussing the topic of whether people are tormented in fire as punishment for their sins.
So, if this is to be the last word on this scripture, I will again state the obvious:
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
What is their “punishment”? “Eternal destruction.”
Destruction is their punishment, not the act of being slowly destroyed in fire. Torture isn't their punishment, rather “destruction” is.Nick, you claim the beast and the false prophet are still in existence a thousand years after being put in the lake of fire. However, the purpose of this fire, as you yourself have stated, is destruction.
And note, that if destruction (being put out of existence) is the punishment (2 Thes 1:9), and they are not really put out of existence until the thousand years are ended, then they are not really punished until the end of the thousand years.
But that makes no sense.OK, that's my final word on this scripture (unless it comes up again), which it most likely will.
david.
Of course, david, our God will have the final say. He will be proved true though every man be shown to be a liar.
Actually, let's let you have the last words Nick. Nine months ago, you said this to t8:
Quote Posted: Mar. 13 2005,00:53 QUOTE
Hi t8,
I too am still searching. Do you think the beast and the false prophet are human and do you agree they spent at least 1000yrs[the Millenial reign]in the lake of fire without being destroyed?Unfortunately, t8 never answered. I'm wondering what he thinks. Nick, are you still searching? Do you know what the beast and false prophet are yet?
david.
Quote Of course, david, our God will have the final say. He will be proved true though every man be shown to be a liar.
Right, and here's what His Word says, in very clear plain language, (meaning not the symbolic sometimes hard to understand language of Revelation):“They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction.” (2 Thess 1:9)
Quote Actually, let's let you have the last words Nick.
Of course, I was typing this while you were writing that God should have the last say, and was not commenting on your statement, but rather on mine where I said: “That's my final word on this…..”Quote (david @ Dec. 02 2005,07:06) Actually, let's let you have the last words Nick. Nine months ago, you said this to t8: Quote Posted: Mar. 13 2005,00:53 QUOTE
Hi t8,
I too am still searching. Do you think the beast and the false prophet are human and do you agree they spent at least 1000yrs[the Millenial reign]in the lake of fire without being destroyed?Unfortunately, t8 never answered. I'm wondering what he thinks. Nick, are you still searching? Do you know what the beast and false prophet are yet?
david.
Hi david,
I have learned much and continue to do so through this forum. The study of the bible with the help of the Spirit gives light upon light. But those trapped within self comforting and lifeless doctrinal limitations cannot learn or grow. They grasp onto only what others have told them and cast mists of confusion over the rest.
They are unteachable.
“You cannot see the kingdom until you have been born again”Quote Hi david,
Have you learned anything ever outside of your JW doctrines?The quick answer: I've learned from this forum that apparently, the word “God” has pagan origins. But, a couple weeks ago, I came across that fact in an old Watchtower magazine. So I'm not sure if that could be taken as a “yes” to your question.
The slightly longer answer: I have a number of interests and read quite a bit. When I become interested in something, I tend to become consumed by it. I was at the library a couple weeks ago and took out 24 books all with the same author–Martin Gardner, who is interested in puzzles, paradoxes, odd areas of math and science, logic, reasoning, why people are deceived, etc. This morning, I was following the instructions in one of the books to make an interesting form of jacob's ladder using 30 key chain rings.
So of course, yes, I am learning things all the time. When I was a Catholic, I learned that Catholics don't really follow the Bible. It's not their main concern. As one Catholic man pointed out to me while I was talking to him on his lawn: “Tradition is just as important as the Bible, more even.” (Contrast Mt 15:3-6) He said this because he didn't have the support of the Bible to back up his tradition. I would like to point out what I've seen over and over again in encyclopedias: “The Witnesses base their teaching on the Bible.” (encyclopedia.com) I have found this to be true. So when you say: 'Have you ever learned anything outside of your Jehovah's Witnesses doctrines,' what you should really be asking me is: “Have you ever learned anything outside of what the Bible teaches?” And No Nick, I've never found anything that proves the Bible wrong, or that disagrees with the Bible.
I have found a number of people who are willing to be blind to certain clear plain english scriptures while clinging to their one that is in parable form. I have found this web site, with two administators who don't always see eye to eye on doctrinal issues (hellfire for example). And I wonder if there is anyone in the world who believes the exact same religous beliefs as you Nick. (And if there isn't, what does that mean?) If you and t8 disagree with each other, then one of you has to be wrong. One of the adminstrators has to be confused, or misguided, or unwilling to see the obvious truth, or in actuality, “blinded by the god of this system of things.” (2 Cor 4:4). You cannot both be right when you disagree, therefore logic dictates that one of you must be wrong. Since the doctrine of hellfire can be traced back through the philospophers of Greece all the way back to Babylon, and since the thought of hellfire contradicts so many other very clear plain english scriptures that say the wicked will persish or be destroyed, and since the very concept of hellfire goes against all of Jehovah's ways of justice and love and since your only scripture that actually backs up your belief is a parable that illustrates something else where everything represents something else, we are drawn to a conclusion in which all the obvious facts seem to point: You are wrong Nick. That is the conclusion to which all the facts point. Or perhaps it's just a coincidence that the Babylonian and Greek philosphies agree with you. Perhaps all those other very plain scriptures that speak of hell and the wicked perishing and “the punishment of eternal destruction” are all wrong.
Perhaps you are right and the word “destruction” doesn't really mean destruction at all in certain verses.
Nick, the better question would be:
How wrong to you have to be before you are willing to humbly admit it, and make the needed correction? You are standing on one scripture that is a parable in which the intent is not to describe hades, but rather to compare what Jesus said in the illustration to something else, and you try to twist everything else (for example: “punishement of eternal destruction”) to fit that one singular Satanic thought of yours: 'Jehovah tortures people in fire.'
Really, how could such a thing ever enter his heart? (Jer 7:31)Back to your question. Of course, there are some things we should learn about Jehovah outside of what the Bible teaches–We should learn about Jehovah from Jehovah's creation.
ROMANS 1:20
“For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;”
He is the ultimate mathematician, scientist, artist, etc. And we can learn much about God from studing his creation. But, creation does not reveal His name. It seems by and large, the only religious group that knows and cares that he even has a name, are the Jehovah's Witnesses.david
Hi david,
You efforts to create division here are futile. If we did never disagree then what sign is there of learning among us? Surely we would be like any denomination parroting false teachings by rote?Paul and Peter were not infrequently not on the same wavelength on all matters [Gal 2.11f] but they had the unity of the Spirit to bind them together such that Peter was able to teach about Paul's letters in 2 Peter 3.15
“..there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction..”You seem to pick and choose from what is written what suits your sensibilities. I would hope you would enlarge your mind to accept all that is taught by God. Only then can you grasp the true picture of a loving but terrible God.
Hey Nick.
I believe I've asked this before, but how are you recovering?I'm not trying to divide you and t8. You are definitely already divided on certain beliefs. I'm simply pointing out that since you disagree, one of you must presently be wrong.
You continually lump me in with your dislike of organized religion. And that is the right attitude for the most part, because for the most part, religion of this world is false religion.
But how do you and t8 differ?I'm simply not sure how the “let's all believe our own thing” is working. In the time of the end, the last days, Jesus would have true followers on the earth carrying out the vast preaching work. (Mat 24:14) This seems to imply some sort of organization. The world is a really big place after all.
You go around telling people that Jehovah burns people while alive for all time, while your counterpart tells people that the Bile doens't teach that.
One of you is teaching a falsehood. One of you is wrong.
Again, I'm not trying to divide you. You both know that you believe differently on this.
I'm just wondering if God would use you and t8 (remembering that Jehovah is “not a God of confusion) to help teach people.Quote You seem to pick and choose from what is written what suits your sensibilities. I would hope you would enlarge your mind to accept all that is taught by God. Only then can you grasp the true picture of a loving but terrible God.
No Nick. That is what you do. Remember the illustration of Luke 16? Of course you do. It's all you remember about hades and death. You have set aside the rest of scripture to support this belief based on one single scripture that is written in illustrative form.“terrible God,” meaing God causing terror?
We are often told that we must be in fear of Jehovah, and to show godly fear. But this is a wholesome, not morbid fear. It is the kind of fear a son has for displeasing his father. It's not the kind of fear a person has who has undergone physical and pychological torture for some time.david.
Hi david,
I can base what I have shown on what is taught by Jesus Christ.
You may have a million admirers who agree with you but that is no evidence in itself that you are doing anything but being a soothsayer is it?Quote (david @ Dec. 03 2005,22:11) Hey Nick.
I believe I've asked this before, but how are you recovering?I'm not trying to divide you and t8. You are definitely already divided on certain beliefs. I'm simply pointing out that since you disagree, one of you must presently be wrong.
You continually lump me in with your dislike of organized religion. And that is the right attitude for the most part, because for the most part, religion of this world is false religion.
But how do you and t8 differ?I'm simply not sure how the “let's all believe our own thing” is working. In the time of the end, the last days, Jesus would have true followers on the earth carrying out the vast preaching work. (Mat 24:14) This seems to imply some sort of organization. The world is a really big place after all.
You go around telling people that Jehovah burns people while alive for all time, while your counterpart tells people that the Bile doens't teach that.
One of you is teaching a falsehood. One of you is wrong.
Again, I'm not trying to divide you. You both know that you believe differently on this.
I'm just wondering if God would use you and t8 (remembering that Jehovah is “not a God of confusion) to help teach people.Quote You seem to pick and choose from what is written what suits your sensibilities. I would hope you would enlarge your mind to accept all that is taught by God. Only then can you grasp the true picture of a loving but terrible God.
No Nick. That is what you do. Remember the illustration of Luke 16? Of course you do. It's all you remember about hades and death. You have set aside the rest of scripture to support this belief based on one single scripture that is written in illustrative form.“terrible God,” meaing God causing terror?
We are often told that we must be in fear of Jehovah, and to show godly fear. But this is a wholesome, not morbid fear. It is the kind of fear a son has for displeasing his father. It's not the kind of fear a person has who has undergone physical and pychological torture for some time.david.
Thank you for your concern. I am recovering very quickly from the bowel cancer though I have to have non cancerous prostate surgery today as well.Acts 14.22
'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God”I have been blessed with the support from my many good and caring friends.
Matt 2.36f
“…I was sick and you visited me…I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me”The brothers can get sick. We can also be an opportunity for salvation through God's mercy which as promised here is shown to those who help us.
To david,
There comes a time in everyones life when they have to take the training wheels of the bike and ride it for yourself. But those who rent out these training wheels don't won't you to do that because they own the training wheels and they need you to need them. It is how they make a living.
Again, more attacks on Jehovah's Witnesses, but not a lot to say about hades/hell.
t8, if what I say is true, why attack? We are speaking about hades/hell.
t8, I really wish you would speak on this subject more. I agree with most everything you say on this subject.Nick disagrees with us on this subject t8. Clearly, he or you is wrong. Why not attack his religion? His religious beliefs are clearly not the same as yours. He believes God tortures people with fire and that they are never really destroyed, but are eternally destroyed, meaning in his mind that they are slowly destroyed over eternity, but hence, never actually destroyed. Confusing, isn't it? Almost paradoxical.
Nick has yet to learn the most basic truth about Jehovah; the most basic–God is love.
And you tell me to take training wheels off my bike in this hades/hell forum?
The Bible never says that God is wisdom, or God is power or God is justice, although He possesses these things. But “God is love.” Nick doesn't understand this most basic truth, this most basic Bible principal. Or perhaps it is “love” that he is confused about. Anyway, being that we are in the hades/hell thread, and being that Nick is the one saying things that you disagree with, it has to make one wonder why you would attack my religion, instead of focusing on what the Bible says on this subject.t8, what do you think about the teaching of hellfire?
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