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Quote (david @ Nov. 16 2005,22:39) Everyone else has been quite silent on this. Anyone other than Nick believe that Jehovah tortures people ongoingly in fire for the sins of a few years on earth?
What do other people think of this story?
What do other people think of the teaching of hellfire, as it is commonly believed?
David,Some of those old beliefs are rooted deep and take time to come out with out damaging the tree.
Quote the scriptures are clear; Hell is the temporary abode of the wicked, but the Lake of Fire will destroy Hell, the Universe and all that belong to this current order.
t8 wrote the above in a permanent article about hell. I'm wondering why you say that the lake of fire will destroy “the Universe.”Quote Given the overwhelming scriptures that support the destruction of the wicked. I have decided to preach it on the rooftops.
t8 stated this on Nov 26,2002, in the thread: 'hell'
I have only begun to read this other thread on 'hell' but was wondering if t8 thinks that the scritpures support the “destruction” of the wicked, rather than the torturing in flames of the wicked, as Nick does.Quote I totally agree. The truth is what matters and anything else is either the word of man or a doctrine of demons.
If the bible repeatedly talks about 'destruction' of the wicked and repeatedly uses the word 'perish', then who are we to argue with that.
I know that the Roman Catholic Church used the doctrine of being tortured forever as a fear mechanism to keep people loyal to that organization. This is a terrible sin in my opinion.
May 31, 2003, t8
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2005,00:26) Quote I totally agree. The truth is what matters and anything else is either the word of man or a doctrine of demons.
If the bible repeatedly talks about 'destruction' of the wicked and repeatedly uses the word 'perish', then who are we to argue with that.
I know that the Roman Catholic Church used the doctrine of being tortured forever as a fear mechanism to keep people loyal to that organization. This is a terrible sin in my opinion.
May 31, 2003, t8
David,The wicked will be destroyed forever (even their memory will be forgotten) they won't burn forever. For the longest I never understood the doctrine of hell. But I'd put it on the back burner. Then one day I caught the pastor in a lie. At that time I was a glorified secyrtiy guard for the sheriff's office. We worked swing shifts. One night on the 10pm to 6am shift around 3am i got down on my knees and asked God for truth. I said I didn't care if the truth was that I was going to burn forever in hell “I WANT THE TRUTH”. Well He gave it to me there is no hell. Now there were no rolling clouds or thunder not even a audible voice. But that's what immediately poped into my head and I didn't put it there.
That was the beginning of my seeking more truth.
Hey Kenrch,
There is a hell (hades/sheol) in the Bible, but nowhere is hellfire to be found as taught by many Greek philosophically minded people.
I'm sure that's what you meant when you said: “there is no hell.” I just often get annoyed when I'm accused of not believing in hell, when really, I don't believe God eternally tortures people in fire for the sins of a few years.It is really a teaching of Satan with the purpose of turning people away from our loving God, by depicting him in a horrific, unlovable, unapproachable way.
By also hiding God's name, and confusing him with Jesus, Satan has made Jehovah out to be someone who is very hard to know, or to want to know.
Satan, “the ruler of the world,” who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth” has been quite successful with this.david.
Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2005,04:57) Hey Kenrch,
There is a hell (hades/sheol) in the Bible, but nowhere is hellfire to be found as taught by many Greek philosophically minded people.
I'm sure that's what you meant when you said: “there is no hell.” I just often get annoyed when I'm accused of not believing in hell, when really, I don't believe God eternally tortures people in fire for the sins of a few years.It is really a teaching of Satan with the purpose of turning people away from our loving God, by depicting him in a horrific, unlovable, unapproachable way.
By also hiding God's name, and confusing him with Jesus, Satan has made Jehovah out to be someone who is very hard to know, or to want to know.
Satan, “the ruler of the world,” who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth” has been quite successful with this.david.
Hi david,
Hades is shown in Lk 16 by Jesus Christ.
Then scripture says in Rev 20.13
” Then death and Hades were thrown in the lake of fire”
So, despite all the reasoning and rationalisation in the world this is what is written.Jesus' purpose in Luke 16 was not to tell us about what hades is like–any more than his purpose was to describe Abraham's bosom, which by the way, of course is not literal.
We have enough other scriptures that clearly reveal hades.We are told exactly what the lake of fire is: the second death. It is not ongoing life, but it is exactly what it says it is–the opposite of life.
Quote Hades is eventually destroyed in the Lake of fire
You said those words on Nov 27 in the Eternal torment thread.
Fire destroys things. Always has. People understand this. God tries to make things easy for us to understand. So, in Revelation, we are told that he presented “in signs” the things that must take place. Actually, we are told “his slaves” would understand. Revelation is a book filled with symbolic imagery.
You yourself said that hades is destroyed in the lake of fire, as is death. Is it to be literally picked up and hurled by God into this fire? How do you literally burn something like hades? How do you burn something like death? Death isn't really anything. It's the absence of something, the absence of life. How do you burn that? Or are we simply being told that hades and death would be done away with?
You correctly state that hades is “destroyed” in the lake of fire. That is, after all the lakes purpose. Yet, somehow when it comes to people, do you feel differently?Hi deavid,
Can we understand the lake of fire? Are we not using earthly terms to describe something that is beyond earth? We do understand fire in earthly terms but not everything in the bible is temporal. Is the lake of fire just like any other ordinary fire that destroys matter, as long as matter is fed into it and there is oxygen around.? I think the lake of fire is different to that. It can destroy bodies and souls.Matt 10 .28
” Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”We understand the destruction of bodies which are matter. That is relatively quick. Whether the word is translated “soul” or “life” clearly what is able to be destroyed here is beyond the weak body of matter.
Such a fire is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Nick, suppose for a second that i am right. Imagine that what this scriptures says is true:
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
Imagine that God's “punishment” for the wicked is really as this scritpure says: “eternal destruction.”
Nick, now think of how God would make us understand this. How do you visualize (remembering that Revelation was a writing presented “in signs”) such “eternal destruction.”
If that scripture quoted above is true, what could Jehovah compare it to so that we could understand?
Fire perhaps? Everyone on the planet understands fire. We know what it does to anything that enters it–it is destroyed. And what goes in, isn't coming back–hence, “eternal destrucion.”
It is utterly simple.“Eternal destruction” is to be feared, wouldn't you say?
Quote Matt 10 .28
” Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”
As you have alluded to in your remarks below this scripture quoted, the word “soul” often means the life of a person. In this very rare instance, it seems it means the life prospects of a person.
What this scripture is referring to is the one we should fear. Man can kill a person. But can man 'eternally destroy' a person's future life prospects. No. Only God can do that. Only God can give out that punishment.Just imagine if that scripture were right Nick. Everything would suddenly make sence–the soul, hades, etc.
david.
Quote I know a person, infact he was my brother (he died a few years ago) who went crazy thinking about people burning in hell forever. (He was a young christian and he just accepted many teachings that the denominations taught). He couldn't understand why God would do such a thing. Perhaps he was more caring than most to even consider their suffering, but in the end, my brother fell away from God as he just couldn't accept that a loving God could be so mean. Now I just wonder how many others reject God based on that doctrine. I personally don't think that this doctrine has any benefit in bringing people to God. These are the words of t8, written on page 3 of the “hell” thread.
Think. Whose purpose does the teaching of hellfire serve? Hellfire is a teaching of Satan designed to turn people away from God. As I've said before Nick, it works quite well.
Hi david,
Just imagine if man's imagination was sufficient to determine the behaviour of God to those who reject His Son. No david. Vain speculation does not compare with what is written. God has already informed us what lies in store for them and if you think men understand the lake of fire by our knowledge of earthly fire then I think you are wrong again. This fire can destroy Hades.Quote Nick, suppose for a second that i am right. Imagine that what this scriptures says is true: 2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
Imagine that God's “punishment” for the wicked is really as this scritpure says: “eternal destruction.”
Nick, I was trying to get you to imagine that this scripture is true. I thought that might free up your beliefs from blinding you to the truth of this scripture. I thought by playing: “Let's imagine,” you might actually consider this scripture to mean what it actually says, rather than simply dismissing it.Am I imagining that 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exists? It seems to exist, even in the Bible you usually use. Am I imagining it Nick? It doesn't seem to be a parable or metaphor. It seems quite literal and indesputable. The words are simple and easy to understand. “Eternal destruction” is spoken of as being “punishment.”
I assure you that this scripture does in fact exist. It's existence is more assured than yours. The whole point is that you don't have to imagine such a scripture. There it is, in your Bible, and mine.
Isn't it interesting that “eternal destruction” is spoken of as being “punishment”? I find that very interesting.
david
Quote (david @ Nov. 30 2005,04:34) As you have alluded to in your remarks below this scripture quoted, the word “soul” often means the life of a person. In this very rare instance, it seems it means the life prospects of a person.
What this scripture is referring to is the one we should fear. Man can kill a person. But can man 'eternally destroy' a person's future life prospects. No. Only God can do that. Only God can give out that punishment.Just imagine if that scripture were right Nick. Everything would suddenly make sence–the soul, hades, etc.
david.
Hi david,
I have seen this unusual translation of “life” as “future prospects of life” before, but only among those who have rejected the reality of the soul. So life does not mean life at all but only does so if you are saved? It means potential life if david tells us it does?
Funny, though, that Jesus did not put it that way in Matt 10.28.Scriptural contortionism.
Sorry but such cynical twisting of scriptures to make them suit false doctrines is way out of line with the simple message of Christ.
Quote I have seen this unusual translation of “life” as “future prospects of life” before, but only among those who have rejected the reality of the soul. In many places the word soul means “life.” (Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16)
Since soul is so often used to mean “life,” it is not a great leap for it to in this one instance be used to mean “life prospects.” The ones who wrote the Bible and were familiar with this use of the word soul (life of an individual) wouldn't have had trouble with this verse.
It is not “sciptural contortionsism,” as you say, but rather, letting the Bible interpret itself.I have noticed that you seem to be contorting this conversation around and away from 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Is that because it is so very very clear. And so very very much the opposite of what you believe?
david.
Hi david,
2Thess 1.7
“…when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power when he comes to be glorified in his saints on that day and to be marvelled at among all who have believed..”
So when Jesus returns and
after the judgement
sinners who do not know God and
do not obey the Son will
suffer the retribution of God and this means to:Suffer destruction for eternity
Being separated also away from the presence of the Lord.Hi david,
It is a process that seems rather prolonged if the beast and the false prophet are still being destroyed 1000 years after being thrown into the Lake of fire. A body would take seconds but who knows how long for a soul?So it's a slow burn?
Not a very effective fire, is it?
Why not just let the beast and the false prophet die from the ravages of old age?A beast [which represents something] and a false prophet [which represents something] are thrown into a lake of fire [which represents something].
I'm curious why you think that the beast and false prophet are still being destroyed 1000 years after being thrown into the lake of fire.
Please explain.Quote A body would take seconds but who knows how long for a soul?
Again, Adam BECAME a soul. He WAS a soul. The soul is the person or the life of the person (or animal).
If it would take a body a few seconds, then by what the Bible says, it would take a soul (person or life) a few seconds.Your concept of “destruction” seems much more like “punishment” or torture. According to 2 Thess 1:9, the “punishment” or penelty is the eternal destruction.
The punishment is destruction (or loss of life).
Actually, the punishment is eternal destruction, (with no hope of life ever again).
This is what the Bible says. It says it rather clearly.
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