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Hi david,
Spamming the site with multiple posts is frowned upon. I realise you find parts of the bible offensive but moderation is advisable in expressing your thoughts. It is also surprising that you would cast aspersions on others on this site in view of your reprimands given others for the same thing.Quote Hi david,
How do you cope with the killing of woman and children under the commands of God in the Old Testament? Do you find this distasteful? Do you judge God as merciless?
There is a chasm of difference between ending someone's life and ongoing torture. Do you not see a difference?Quote Hi david,
Spamming the site with multiple posts is frowned upon. I realise you find parts of the bible offensive but moderation is advisable in expressing your thoughts. It is also surprising that you would cast aspersions on others on this site in view of your reprimands given others for the same thing.Sorry Nick. I won't spam the site if that's what I was doing. I just keep finding scripture after scripture that makes me wonder how anyone could believe a God of love would do such things. For example, I recently wondered:
How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10) It doesn't make sence if God is love, does it? It doesn't seem just, does it?As for casting aspersions on others (you) on this site, those others were name calling EATH OTHER.
You are accusing JEHOVAH of being a vindictive, cruel, unloving, unfair, unjust, unloving God. I take great issue with that.
Name calling other people is one thing. Painting Jehovah in a derogatory way is much different.david
Quote I realise you find parts of the bible offensive Nick, you know I don't find any parts of the Bible offensive. It's turning your head from the rest of the Bible and painting the Almighty in the light you did that I find offensive. And I'm sure Jehovah finds it offensive as well.
david
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2005,04:23) Quote Hi david,
Spamming the site with multiple posts is frowned upon. I realise you find parts of the bible offensive but moderation is advisable in expressing your thoughts. It is also surprising that you would cast aspersions on others on this site in view of your reprimands given others for the same thing.Sorry Nick. I won't spam the site if that's what I was doing. I just keep finding scripture after scripture that makes me wonder how anyone could believe a God of love would do such things. For example, I recently wondered:
How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10) It doesn't make sence if God is love, does it? It doesn't seem just, does it?As for casting aspersions on others (you) on this site, those others were name calling EATH OTHER.
You are accusing JEHOVAH of being a vindictive, cruel, unloving, unfair, unjust, unloving God. I take great issue with that.
Name calling other people is one thing. Painting Jehovah in a derogatory way is much different.david
Hi david,
So the painting made by Jesus of Hades in Luke 16 is offensive to you? Such suffering never has or never could occur? That is even before the judgement and we really understand rather less about the second death, the lake of fire, but it does not seem that pleasant either.Should we go through the bible shedding the offensive parts and paint a Father Christmas God do you think?.
No, the parable of the rich man and lazarus isn't offensive to me in the least.
Again, as I said in the quote above, it's not any part of the Bible I find offensive, but rather your understanding of God and the cruelty and injustice you imagine he is capable of.Would you burn your child Nick? You seem to avoid this distasteful question.
Hi david,
Logic is certainly one way of understanding God. It is a poor substitute,though, for expounding what the bible shows about God. It is the Word of God that will stand in the end and where will the words of philosophers be then?You are the one sticking with your Greek Philospophy. I'm suprised you haven't quoted Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle to back up your beliefs.
It is not philosophy, but rather the simple logic of this question that is showing the ridiculousness of your belief:
—If the idea of roasting people in fire had never come into God's heart, does it seem reasonable that he created a fiery hell for those who do not serve him?Again, I ask you Nick:
–What was God’s view when the Israelites, following the example of peoples who lived nearby, began to burn their children in fire?
He explains in his Word: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, A THING THAT I HAD NOT COMMANDED AND THAT HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART.”—Jeremiah 7:31.
Think about this. The Bible says, “God is love.” (1 John 4:8)
Would a loving God really torment people forever?
Would you do so?
–How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our enemies wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
Knowing of God’s love should move us to turn to his Word to find out just what hell is.An answer to any of these questions would be nice. But I don't expect one.
What happens to a person when he dies?
When Adam sinned, God told him:
“You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)Think of what this means. Before God created him from the dust, there was no Adam. He did not exist. So, after he died, Adam returned to that same state of nonexistence.
He was originally told he would die if he sinned. He wasn't told anything about being roasted alive. Seems grossly unjust not to mention it if it was true. It wasn't true.
Simply stated, death is the opposite of life.
According to the KJ version, “For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest.”
So the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer hanve any thoughts, as the Bible states:“Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.“
At death man's spirit, his life-force “goes out.” It no longer exists. So man's senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working.
According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness. This of course, would make ongoing torture hard, to say the least.
Both humans AND ANIMALS are in this same state of complete unconsciousness.
“As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20)
The “spirit” that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this “spirit,” or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.Some have said that what makes man different from animals is that they have a soul. But Gen 1:20,30 says that God created “living souls” to live in the waters, and that the animals have “life as a soul.”
Among the Bible references to animals as souls is Numbers 31:28. There it speaks of “one soul out of five hundred, of humankind and of the herd and of the asses and of the flock.”Since animals are souls, when they die their souls die. As the Bible says: “Every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea.” (Revelation 16:3) What about human souls? God did not create man with a soul. Man is a soul. So, as we would expect, when man dies, his soul dies.
Over and over again the Bible says that this is true. Never does the Bible say the soul is deathless or that it cannot die. “All those going down to the dust will bend down, and no one will ever preserve his own soul alive,” Psalm 22:29 says. “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die,” explains Ezekiel 18:4 and 20.
And if you turn to Joshua 10:28-39, you will find seven places where the soul is spoken of as being killed or destroyed.In a prophecy about Jesus Christ, the Bible says: “He poured out his soul to the very death . . . and he himself carried the very sin of many people.” (Isaiah 53:12) The teaching of the ransom proves it was a soul (Adam) that sinned, and that in order to ransom humans there had to be a corresponding soul (a man) sacrificed. Christ, by ‘pouring out his soul unto death,’ provided the ransom price. Jesus, the human soul, died.
As we have seen, the “spirit” is something different from our soul. The spirit is our life-force. This life-force is in each of the body cells of both humans AND ANIMALS. It is sustained, or kept alive, by breathing. What does it mean, then, when the Bible says that at death “the dust returns to the earth . . . and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it”? (Ecclesiastes 12:7) At death the life-force in time leaves all the body cells and the body begins to decay. But this does not mean that our life-force literally leaves the earth and travels through space to God. Rather, the spirit returns to God in the sense that now our hope for future life rests entirely with God. Only by his power can the spirit, or life-force, be given back so that we live again.—Read Psalm 104:29, 30.
LAZARUS—A MAN DEAD FOR FOUR DAYS
What happened to Lazarus, who was dead for four days, helps us to understand the condition of the dead. Jesus had told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.” However, the disciples replied: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.” At that, Jesus told them plainly: “Lazarus has died.”
Why did Jesus say Lazarus was sleeping when really he had died?Jesus said: “Take the stone away.” Since Lazarus had been dead for four days, Martha protested: “Lord, by now he must smell.” But the stone was removed, and Jesus called out: “Lazarus, come on out!” And he did! He came out alive, still wrapped in graveclothes. “Loose him and let him go,” Jesus said.—John 11:11-44.
Now think about this: What was Lazarus’ condition during those four days he was dead? Had he been in heaven? Was he conscious? He was a good man. Yet Lazarus did not say anything about being in heaven, which surely he would have done if he had been there. No, Lazarus was really dead, even as Jesus said he was.
Then why did Jesus at first tell his disciples that Lazarus was only sleeping?Well, Jesus knew that the dead Lazarus was unconscious, as the Bible says: “The dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) But a living person can be awakened from a deep sleep. So Jesus was going to show that, by means of God’s power given to him, his friend Lazarus could be awakened from death.
When a person is in a very deep sleep, he remembers nothing. It is similar with the dead. They have no feelings at all. They no longer exist. But, in God’s due time, the dead who are ransomed by God will be raised to life. (John 5:28)
david
Hi david,
At the second resurrection what will be the state of men?Yes they have died. Are they then still dead. Does that mean they will have no consciousness as their fate is pronounced? Will they not hear how God has viewed their behaviours? Will they not see whether their names are written in the book of life? Will they not feel absolute amazement that God has found mercy for them or utter dismay that their efforts have been insufficient to impress God? Will they not think and argue and plead that they have done this and that only to hear they were not known by Jesus?
If they will be conscious and able to experience all these human traits what state will they be in?If they are condemned scripture says they will be thrown into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels and where the beast and the false prophet still are. That is what scripture says.
I realise in finds little popularity among those who hear these words but again it is avoiding the consequences by God's way is what is vital surely.
Hi david,
You quoted Is 53.12 about the death of Jesus
” He poured himself out to death”
Indeed he died as Peter confimed in Acts 2.23,3.15wtc
But he also said
in Acts 2.27
” because thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor allow thy holy one to undergo decay”
and in v 32
“he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh suffer decay”So unlike with other men the body\tent of Jesus did not decay
And
The soul of Jesus did not separate and go to Hades.Hi ,
Matt 10 .28
” ..fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in gehenna”It makes sense really. At the second resurrection souls are awakened and reimplanted in their mortal bodies which have been reconstructed. Then indeed if they are unable to pass the judgement of the sheep and goats then they are thrown alive, body and living soul, into the lake of fire.
Quote At the second resurrection souls are awakened
What you say in this quote about souls is right, but what you mean is wrong, as odd as that sounds.
“souls [or lives] are awakened.”
Not: “souls [shadowy spirit with personality and character inside man] are awakened.”But about being thrown alive into the lake of fire, (a place where hades and death are also cast) does make one wonder.
What effect will this lake of fire have on “death”?
What effect will it have on “hades?”
It will have the same effect as those who face it, extinction, complete destruction. Literal fire would have little effect on death, or hades, wouldn't you agree? How does one burn death, literally? One doesn't.
But, death and the common grave of mankind (hades) can and will be done away with. It makes sence really.
If God wanted to symbolize complete destruction, what better symbol could he use so humans understand? Can you think of any Nick? Maybe I'm not that smart, but I can't. Can you?Here's something else I just came across.
Babylon's annihilation is called a fiery torment. (Rev 18:8-10,21) Can this be taken literally?Hi david,
Spiritual Wisdom does not derive from the imaginations of men. Human wisdom does but that is poor fare.You still see man from the perspective of men and not from the view of God. Remove the tent and man still exists because he is a being. A being does not need a body. Man is a being made in the likeness of God. Since that likeness comes from only the breath of God and not the spirit of God he does not naturally have the character of God. Though he can claim sonship by creation God does no longer recognise that relationship.
Gehenna is the second death and it would be unwise to assume it's nature bears any more than a superficial resemblence to the first death. It is designed for the devil and his angels, spiritual beings without bodies. So it is no surprise that it can destroy spiritual things such as death and Hades.
Hades contains the souls awaiting judgement, not bodies, but Luke 16 shows that sensations such as sight ,hearing, understanding, thirst, pain are not purely physical in nature. That should not be surprising as angels know these things without bodies and we are spiritual beings like even to God , clothed in weak mortal bodies. Man's view of these things is a narrowminded trap.Hi david,
Jonah surely died just as Christ died. That is why the sign of Jonah applies to Jesus. Like Jesus he was not allowed to remain in the pit. He cried out from sheol and was heard and was resurrected as a sign of Christ's resurrection.And, of course, that tells us that death is not the end of life. His soul went to sheol but he was not allowed to make his bed there and is the only one God whose prayer has been allowed to be heard from sheol-as a sign of Christ.
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2005,15:47) What happens to a person when he dies? When Adam sinned, God told him:
“You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)Think of what this means. Before God created him from the dust, there was no Adam. He did not exist. So, after he died, Adam returned to that same state of nonexistence.
He was originally told he would die if he sinned. He wasn't told anything about being roasted alive. Seems grossly unjust not to mention it if it was true. It wasn't true.
Simply stated, death is the opposite of life.
According to the KJ version, “For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest.”
So the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer hanve any thoughts, as the Bible states:“Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.“
At death man's spirit, his life-force “goes out.” It no longer exists. So man's senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working.
According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness. This of course, would make ongoing torture hard, to say the least.
Both humans AND ANIMALS are in this same state of complete unconsciousness.
“As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20)
The “spirit” that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this “spirit,” or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.Some have said that what makes man different from animals is that they have a soul. But Gen 1:20,30 says that God created “living souls” to live in the waters, and that the animals have “life as a soul.”
Among the Bible references to animals as souls is Numbers 31:28. There it speaks of “one soul out of five hundred, of humankind and of the herd and of the asses and of the flock.”Since animals are souls, when they die their souls die. As the Bible says: “Every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea.” (Revelation 16:3) What about human souls? God did not create man with a soul. Man is a soul. So, as we would expect, when man dies, his soul dies.
Over and over again the Bible says that this is true. Never does the Bible say the soul is deathless or that it cannot die. “All those going down to the dust will bend down, and no one will ever preserve his own soul alive,” Psalm 22:29 says. “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die,” explains Ezekiel 18:4 and 20.
And if you turn to Joshua 10:28-39, you will find seven places where the soul is spoken of as being killed or destroyed.In a prophecy about Jesus Christ, the Bible says: “He poured out his soul to the very death . . . and he himself carried the very sin of many people.” (Isaiah 53:12) The teaching of the ransom proves it was a soul (Adam) that sinned, and that in order to ransom humans there had to be a corresponding soul (a man) sacrificed. Christ, by ‘pouring out his soul unto death,’ provided the ransom price. Jesus, the human soul, died.
As we have seen, the “spirit” is something different from our soul. The spirit is our life-force. This life-force is in each of the body cells of both humans AND ANIMALS. It is sustained, or kept alive, by breathing. What does it mean, then, when the Bible says that at death “the dust returns to the earth . . . and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it”? (Ecclesiastes 12:7) At death the life-force in time leaves all the body cells and the body begins to decay. But this does not mean that our life-force literally leaves the earth and travels through space to God. Rather, the spirit returns to God in the sense that now our hope for future life rests entirely with God. Only by his power can the spirit, or life-force, be given back so that we live again.—Read Psalm 104:29, 30.
LAZARUS—A MAN DEAD FOR FOUR DAYS
What happened to Lazarus, who was dead for four days, helps us to understand the condition of the dead. Jesus had told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.” However, the disciples replied: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.” At that, Jesus told them plainly: “Lazarus has died.”
Why did Jesus say Lazarus was sleeping when really he had died?Jesus said: “Take the stone away.” Since Lazarus had been dead for four days, Martha protested: “Lord, by now he must smell.” But the stone was removed, and Jesus called out: “Lazarus, come on out!” And he did! He came out alive, still wrapped in graveclothes. “Loose him and let him go,” Jesus said.—John 11:11-44.
Now think about this: What was Lazarus’ condition during those four days he was dead? Had he been in heaven? Was he conscious? He was a good man. Yet Lazarus did not say anything about being in heaven, which surely he would have done if he had been there. No, Lazarus was really dead, even as Jesus said he was.
Then why did Jesus at first tell his disciples that Lazarus was only sleeping?Well, Jesus knew that the dead Lazarus was unconscious, as the Bible says: “The dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) But a living person can be awakened from a deep sleep. So Jesus was going to show that, by means of God’s power given to him, his friend Lazarus could be awakened from death.
When a person is in a very deep sleep, he remembers nothing. It is similar with the dead. They have no feelings at all. They no longer exist. But, in God’s due time, the dead who are ransomed by God will be raised to life. (John 5:28)
david
Hi david,
So, as you say, the dead are as in a very deep sleep from which they can be awakened. I agree. But Lazarus had died as does any other man. His body was already corrupting so his sleep did not involve his body.
Jn 11.39
“.. Martha, the sister of the deceased said to him
'Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days”
So he was asleep. Asleep in sheol in the bosom of Abraham. Soul sleep.I'm sorry. Somehow I put all those scriptures and thoughts about hades not being a place of unending torture in the wrong thread. I came here looking for it, where it should be, but it was in the soul thread. I should put it here as well.
DOES GOD TORMENT PEOPLE IN HELLFIRE AS BABYLONIAN RELIGIONS AND GREEK INFLUENCE TEACHES?
1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say?
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you Nick?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible does not contradict itself Nick?10.–Is not the idea that the soul is immortal contrary to what you personally have observed?
–What happens when a person is knocked unconscious, faints, or is placed under an anesthetic at a hospital?
If his “soul” is really something separate from the body and is able to function intelligently apart from the body, so that even death itself does not affect its existence and its functions, why is it that during such period of unconsciousness the person is completely unaware of all activity around him?
–Why is it that he must be told afterward what happened during that time?
–If his “soul” can see, hear, feel and think after death, as religions generally teach, why does something far less drastic than death, such as a period of unconsciousness, stop all these functions?Hi david,
You take a very greek philosphical approach to finding truth.Such as you might say:
“Now you say “good people”, like you and me, could not countenance certain behaviours. It follows by simple logic and reasoning that God, who is good like us, would neither consider such things. I have found some verses that seem to support this premise and if I ignore any further scriptures that show things in another light I think I could make a case that God was only winding us up when He told us about the Lake of Fire.”
I prefer to feed on the Word.
David,
You are politely requested to not repeat your posts for the sake of the others who use this forum. Do not be heartbroken if you do not get all the answers you seek as we all have freedoms here and one of those freedoms is to consider at length or ignore the irrelevant. Spamming the site with repetition does nothing for knowledge and annoys others who may have something new to share.Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2005,01:08) I'm sorry. Somehow I put all those scriptures and thoughts about hades not being a place of unending torture in the wrong thread. I came here looking for it, where it should be, but it was in the soul thread. I should put it here as well. DOES GOD TORMENT PEOPLE IN HELLFIRE AS BABYLONIAN RELIGIONS AND GREEK INFLUENCE TEACHES?
1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say?
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you Nick?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible does not contradict itself Nick?10.–Is not the idea that the soul is immortal contrary to what you personally have observed?
–What happens when a person is knocked unconscious, faints, or is placed under an anesthetic at a hospital?
If his “soul” is really something separate from the body and is able to function intelligently apart from the body, so that even death itself does not affect its existence and its functions, why is it that during such period of unconsciousness the person is completely unaware of all activity around him?
–Why is it that he must be told afterward what happened during that time?
–If his “soul” can see, hear, feel and think after death, as religions generally teach, why does something far less drastic than death, such as a period of unconsciousness, stop all these functions?
Hi david,
Jer 31 says a lot about rebellion and idolatry and false religion but nothing about God not doing as He wishes with men just as the potter can do with the clay. Fear Him.
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