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Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2005,23:05) Right Nick. Quote What do you make of this scripture? “‘The sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom [outside the south wall of Jerusalem], in order to burn [what?] their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded AND THAT HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART.’”—Jer. 7:30, 31; note Leviticus 18:21; 20:2-5.
So, now, when it comes to pity, for whom do we have more pity? For the idolatrous parents who faced an accounting with Jehovah? Or for the sons and daughters screaming as they were being offered as human sacrifices to the false god Molech (King), on a high altar at Topheth in the valley of the son of Hinnom? (Jer. 32:35) How could those heartless parents associate such worship of the fiendish idol-god Molech with worship at the holy temple just to the north of the valley? It was not at Jehovah’s command that they offered up such live human sacrifices to a false god. The idea of such human sacrifices came into the heart of the religious apostates back there, but never into the heart of Jehovah God.
If such a thing as burning people alive had not come up into Jehovah's heart, (as Scripture says) then how can we imagine he has created a place where people are to be burned alive? It “had not come up into [His] heart.”
This is one of the most God dishonouring teachings the devil has ever created.
If you wanted to turn people away from Jehovah, as Satan does, would it be to your advantage to paint him as a cruel God who does things to humans no sane human would ever do or devise?
When one thinks of the most terrible things that have been done to humans, being burned alive at the stake comes to mind. But to do it without them dying, how much worse is that?I do not judge God as you say, but only question your belief that the God of love, a God who “is love,” would torture people in such a sadistic way, especially in light of this very clear scripture which says such a thing had not come up into his heart. Also in light of the scriptures upon scriptures that very clearly say the soul is the person and the perosn or “soul” dies.
How do you pull that scripture into your belief system, how do you move the tent pin, as you say and leave room for a God who had never had such an idea, (jer 7:31) and yet does such things?
The punishment told to adam if he disobeyed was “death.” The righteous recieve life, the wicked are to be cut off from life. Yes, the Bible uses the symbol of fire to make this understandable. They aren't coming back, those who face the lake of fire, gehenna. They are to be forever gone, as anything that would be burned is gone.
Nick, I ask you this question wanting a responce. I ask it wanting you to answer me truthfully. I want a responce. If one of your sons went astray, and wasn't found worthy, and you were his judge, would you take his hand and set it on the burner of the stove. Would you press his hand there and hold it down without pause? I imagine such a thing would never come up into your heart, even as it never “had come up into [Jehovah's] heart.”
God is love. And for the wellfare of those who do wish to serve him, the wicked will be “cut off,” out of love for his servants. But the need to punish them with a pain so unimaginable for so long? Where the love? Who is that showing love to? Where is the need? And how could such a thought even enter Jehovah's heart? He is holy. He is love.
Please stop slandering our creator. Stop treating his name with such disrespect so as to accuse him of such horrific things. Doing so only serves the purposes of the Devil. It only serves to turn people away from God.
david.
Hi david,
Why would you fear punishment by our God? Surely you too have become a reborn son and safe from the fear of “eternal destruction”[1 Thess 1.9]
Surely you too are not a soothsayer whio tells men to do nothing but trust in the expansive total forgiveness of God for all men who reject His son and his teaching?The threat of painful retribution in the afterlife has counterparts in nearly every major world religion and in some minor ones as well. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jains, and Taoists believe in a hell of one sort or another.
Interesting.
WHEN DID PROFESSED CHRISTIANS ADOPT THE BELIEF IN HELLFIRE?
Well after the time of Jesus Christ and his apostles. “The Apocalypse of Peter (2nd century C.E.) was the first [apocryphal] Christian work to describe the punishment and tortures of sinners in hell,” states the French Encyclopædia Universalis.
Among the early Church Fathers, however, there was disagreement over hell. Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Cyprian believed that hell was a fiery place. Origen and theologian Gregory of Nyssa thought of hell as a place of separation from God—of spiritual suffering. Augustine of Hippo, on the other hand, held that suffering in hell was both spiritual and sensory—a view that gained acceptance. “By the fifth century the stern doctrine that sinners will have no second chance after this life and that the fire which will devour them will never be extinguished was everywhere paramount,” wrote Professor J.N.D. Kelly.
In the 16th century, such Protestant reformers as Martin Luther and John Calvin understood the fiery torment of hell to be figurative of spending eternity separated from God. However, the idea of hell as a place of torment returned in the following two centuries. Protestant preacher Jonathan Edwards used to strike fear in the hearts of 18th-century Colonial Americans with graphic portrayals of hell.
Quote Hi david,
Why would you fear punishment by our God? Surely you too have become a reborn son and safe from the fear of “eternal destruction”[1 Thess 1.9]
Surely you too are not a soothsayer whio tells men to do nothing but trust in the expansive total forgiveness of God for all men who reject His son and his teaching?So, you can't answer my question can you? It would show the absurdity of a God of love doing something you, a sinful human can't even do.
I'll take your lack of a responce as proving my point.Thankyou Nick
david
You see Nick, if you were to press another human's hands (especially that of your children) onto a burner or into a fire and hold his hand there forever, you would be viewed as a sadistic cruel person, unloving, unjust. To acknowledge this would be to state the obvious: That putting Jehovah in the same situation shows him to be the same. And we know that's not true.
Such a thing never came up into his heart. OBVIOUSLY.
david.
Dr. Tom Wright, dean of Litchfield Cathedral, states that imagery of hellfire “made God into a monster and left searing psychological scars on many.”
Obviously. Obviously it would do so, even as a human father doing such a thing to one of our brothers or any other human would have the same effect on us.
Obviously, an apostate teaching of Satan who wishes to confuse God in the minds of many (trinity) and to paint him as a cruel, unloveble God (hellfire.)
Quote Hi david,
Why would you fear punishment by our God? Surely you too have become a reborn son and safe from the fear of “eternal destruction”[1 Thess 1.9]Wait, now you're saying “eternal destruction.”?
The apostle Paul resisted the pressure to assimilate either Greek philosophy or erroneous traditions into his teaching.
“Look out,” he cautioned.
“Perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men.” (Colossians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:22, 23; 2:1-13)Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?
Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)
And here's that scripture Nick quoted:
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)
Should the God of love watch for all eternity this endless, hopeless, pitiless, loveless, cruel physical-psychological torture of his creatures?
Is he such a hardhearted creditor?
What would we think of a human being who satisfied his thirst for revenge so implacably and insatiably?
What would any person think of you Nick, if you put your son's hand on a burner and pressed it into that burner? If one day you had a dream (nightmare) that you were doing that to your son, you would be repulsed, disgusted, and upset for some time I would imagine. It would haunt your thoughts for some time.
And what would God think of you? Of course, you are not a judge and not fit to do such a thing, but if you were, if that power were given you, would you ever concieve of such a thing?
God would never. (Jer 7:30,31)Nick, how can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
Well?
Nick, do not silence your conscience by shying away from these questions. Looking the other way, does not make these perplexities disappear.
So let us face the issue.
What are the moral implications attached to this doctrine?Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die.
How can anyone with the milk of human kindness in him remain calm contemplating such an idea as the the traditional doctrine of hell?
How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness?
I even wonder what atrocities have been committed by those who have believed in a God who tortures his enemies.
If we are to become “imitators of God,” (Eph 5:1,2) what horrific things have some devised, what crimes against humanity have been commited believing that God does such things? It's scary to consider.Hi david,
The message is, no matter what our differing views of what scripture says on these matters, that men need to take very seriously the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is plainly evident to all that our only opportunity to do so is while we are living on th earth. Fear God david and make sure you are reborn into the Son rather than quibbling on the resulting details of failure to do so.An eye for an eye???
A standard of justice given by God: “Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.” (Exodus 21:24)
For the sake of argument, apply to the doctrine of hellfire that divine law given to ancient Israel, a law of exact retribution.
What conclusion will you likely reach?
That only those sinners who have caused eternal torment deserve equal eternal torment in turn—eternal torment for eternal torment.
But since humans (no matter how evil) can cause only finite torment, sentencing them to eternal torment creates a disproportion between their crimes and the infinite penalty of hellfire.Simply stated, the sentence would be too heavy. It would go far beyond “eye for eye, tooth for tooth.”
Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, you may admit that true Christians would be hard-pressed to see justness in eternal torment.—Matthew 5:38, 39; Romans 12:17.
Quote Hi david,
The message is, no matter what our differing views of what scripture says on these matters, that men need to take very seriously the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is plainly evident to all that our only opportunity to do so is while we are living on th earth. Fear God david and make sure you are reborn into the Son rather than quibbling on the resulting details of failure to do so.So you can't answer any of the questions that are raised?
People reading this have to wonder what that means.
I'm not quibbling Nick. You are accusing our soveriegn Lord Jehovah, our Holy clean God, as being a cruel vindictive monster without love, or justice.
You are slandering him in a most dishonoring way. I am pointing out some troubling questions that arise from this slander and some scriptures that must make people wonder.
dave
The Problem of Pain: “There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord’s own words.”
Thus, supporters confess that eternal torment is appalling, but in the same breath, they hold that the doctrine is mandatory because they feel that the Bible teaches it.
By admitting its unpleasantness, you hope to prove your unswerving fidelity to the Bible and a certain heroism in your believing such an awful truth just because you feel scripture teaches it. I realize this Nick.There are many more questions I'd like to ask and more scriptures to consider, but I have to go to a meeting. We're studying Daniel, the book of Daniel, at our book study.
cheers.
david.
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