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I'm very much interested in knowing how you came to believe what you did and how you and t8 have the same belief system. And how you discovered that you did.
So you like camping Nick?
I do.
Hi david,
Being born again and seeking the Spirit and serious personal bible study free from denominational influence has led us to very similar conclusions. I thought I was alone in doubting the trinity when i came here and found true openminded honesty.
Too creaky for camping.I always look at the avitar and see you as a thirty five year old. I know based on what you've said before, you have to be at least in your 40's or 50's though. How creaky are you? I'm 30.
Nick, there are millions of people like me who know the trinity for what it is. They are called Jehovah's Witnesses.
Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2005,21:28) I always look at the avitar and see you as a thirty five year old. I know based on what you've said before, you have to be at least in your 40's or 50's though. How creaky are you? I'm 30.
Hi david,
57 at last count.
Old enough to never miss a rainbow or a sunset.
Old enough to know my 'use by date' is approaching.
Old enough to want to ensure my bags are packed correctly.One day at a time.
7 adult children and 4 grandchildren so far.
Right. So you'd be….45?
It was “by divine providence called Christians.” Acts 11:26.
So at times, God saw fit that some did need “labels,” if that's what you want to call it.My point above was a simple one. There are many, and I believe by far most of the people that don't believe in the trinity but claim to be Christians are Jehovah's Witnesses.
I don't know about New Zealand, but here, if you went up to someone and started talking about the Bible and …. well, I guess they'd know you were a Jehovah's Witness before you got to the trinity. Just talking about the Bible is enough. But those that don't believe the trinity are usually associated with Witnesses, as far as I can tell.david.
Quote Hi david,
57 at last count.
Old enough to never miss a rainbow or a sunset.
Old enough to know my 'use by date' is approaching.
Old enough to want to ensure my bags are packed correctly.
Funny.
Wow. 7 children?
So, would you burn any of them for all eternity in the hot flames of a firy hell that you created? Would you even ever light a match and press it to their skin?
I know, you're kids are not deserving. But even if they were all murdering, terrible, worst of the worst, kinds of people who didn't care about the bible, or God, or you or anything.
Would you for their sins of 50 or 70 years, burn them for all time?Does that seem just? Fair? Loving? Wise? Does it fit Jehovah's personality at all? If similar sacrifices never came “up into [His] heart,” (Jer 7:31), how can one imagine they did?
I'm sorry, we were being informal and having fun and then I asked all these horrible questions that actually repulse me. The thought of it literally makes me a little sick.
Hi david,
Do you worship the God who is revealed in the words of scripture or one of your own design?I have led all my children to the waters and Spirit of salvation. That is what a believing father does for his children. If you can see a fire coming then it is loving to try to lead to safety those you love most then those who you can.
In answer to your question Nick, I worship the God of the Bible, not one of Greek philosophy nor one tainted with Babylonian beliefs.
You?
What do you make of this scripture?
“‘The sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom [outside the south wall of Jerusalem], in order to burn [what?] their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded AND THAT HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART.’”—Jer. 7:30, 31; note Leviticus 18:21; 20:2-5.
So, now, when it comes to pity, for whom do we have more pity? For the idolatrous parents who faced an accounting with Jehovah? Or for the sons and daughters screaming as they were being offered as human sacrifices to the false god Molech (King), on a high altar at Topheth in the valley of the son of Hinnom? (Jer. 32:35) How could those heartless parents associate such worship of the fiendish idol-god Molech with worship at the holy temple just to the north of the valley? It was not at Jehovah’s command that they offered up such live human sacrifices to a false god. The idea of such human sacrifices came into the heart of the religious apostates back there, but never into the heart of Jehovah God. What do men who try to blend such worship with Jehovah’s worship deserve?
Really, how could such a devilish thing as burning someone alive forever come up into Jehovah's heart? It couldn't.
Fire symbolizes destruction. If you want to destroy something completely, you burn it.Hi david,
That is not the question but rather how long does it take? more than 1000 years according to the fate of the beast and the false prophet?That isn't the question? Is this the question? How about this one? This is fun.
My question is: What do you make of that scripture above, Jer. 7:30,31?
It doesn't have to be Nick. What does Adam Pastor or Soxan or anyone think of Jeremiah 7:30,31? What does this tell us about God Almighty? What does this tell us about the idea of God creating a place to burn someone alive?
Anyone?
Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2005,23:36) That isn't the question? Is this the question? How about this one? This is fun. My question is: What do you make of that scripture above, Jer. 7:30,31?
Hi david,
Would you judge God?Would you take standards He applies to us and then apply them to Him?
Can the clay argue with the potter?
(Luke 12:5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell/GEHENNA; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Hi Adam Pastor,
Lk 12.4f
“And I say to you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I warn you whom to fear; fear rthe One, who after He has killed has authrority to cast in to hell; yes I tell you fear Him.”So men can kill the body but not the soul.
God can not only allow our physical death but also cast our soul into the lake of Fire=the second death.Right Nick.
Quote What do you make of this scripture? “‘The sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom [outside the south wall of Jerusalem], in order to burn [what?] their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded AND THAT HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART.’”—Jer. 7:30, 31; note Leviticus 18:21; 20:2-5.
So, now, when it comes to pity, for whom do we have more pity? For the idolatrous parents who faced an accounting with Jehovah? Or for the sons and daughters screaming as they were being offered as human sacrifices to the false god Molech (King), on a high altar at Topheth in the valley of the son of Hinnom? (Jer. 32:35) How could those heartless parents associate such worship of the fiendish idol-god Molech with worship at the holy temple just to the north of the valley? It was not at Jehovah’s command that they offered up such live human sacrifices to a false god. The idea of such human sacrifices came into the heart of the religious apostates back there, but never into the heart of Jehovah God.
If such a thing as burning people alive had not come up into Jehovah's heart, (as Scripture says) then how can we imagine he has created a place where people are to be burned alive? It “had not come up into [His] heart.”
This is one of the most God dishonouring teachings the devil has ever created.
If you wanted to turn people away from Jehovah, as Satan does, would it be to your advantage to paint him as a cruel God who does things to humans no sane human would ever do or devise?
When one thinks of the most terrible things that have been done to humans, being burned alive at the stake comes to mind. But to do it without them dying, how much worse is that?I do not judge God as you say, but only question your belief that the God of love, a God who “is love,” would torture people in such a sadistic way, especially in light of this very clear scripture which says such a thing had not come up into his heart. Also in light of the scriptures upon scriptures that very clearly say the soul is the person and the perosn or “soul” dies.
How do you pull that scripture into your belief system, how do you move the tent pin, as you say and leave room for a God who had never had such an idea, (jer 7:31) and yet does such things?
The punishment told to adam if he disobeyed was “death.” The righteous recieve life, the wicked are to be cut off from life. Yes, the Bible uses the symbol of fire to make this understandable. They aren't coming back, those who face the lake of fire, gehenna. They are to be forever gone, as anything that would be burned is gone.
Nick, I ask you this question wanting a responce. I ask it wanting you to answer me truthfully. I want a responce. If one of your sons went astray, and wasn't found worthy, and you were his judge, would you take his hand and set it on the burner of the stove. Would you press his hand there and hold it down without pause? I imagine such a thing would never come up into your heart, even as it never “had come up into [Jehovah's] heart.”
God is love. And for the wellfare of those who do wish to serve him, the wicked will be “cut off,” out of love for his servants. But the need to punish them with a pain so unimaginable for so long? Where the love? Who is that showing love to? Where is the need? And how could such a thought even enter Jehovah's heart? He is holy. He is love.
Please stop slandering our creator. Stop treating his name with such disrespect so as to accuse him of such horrific things. Doing so only serves the purposes of the Devil. It only serves to turn people away from God.
david.
Many teach that the wicked will go to a fiery hell and be tormented forever.
Is this teaching logical and Scriptural?The human life span is limited to 70 or 80 years.
Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No.
It would be grossly unjust to torment a man forever for the sins that he committed in a short lifetime.
Only God can reveal what happens after people die, and he has done so in his written Word, the Bible. This is what the Bible says: “As the [beast] dies, so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) There is no mention here of a fiery hell. Humans return to dust—to nonexistence—when they die.
In order to be tormented, a person has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious? Once again, the Bible gives the answer: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) It is impossible for the dead, who are “conscious of nothing at all,” to experience agony anywhere.
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