Hades/hell

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2005,15:35)

Nick, the above are the answers to any questions you might ask me.  I may have missed one or two things, so I'll just add the following about “Hell”: Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain? Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.) Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.) Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body? Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.) “The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128. “Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236. NICK, I still would like to see a more explanitory definition of “soul” from you.  I know you can't just define it as “vessel” and leave it at that, based on the hundreds of scriptures that refer to it as PERSON, OR ANIMAL or THE LIFE of a person or animal.           WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE GO TO THE BIBLE HELL? Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell? Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.) Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell? Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.) Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.) Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell? Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.) Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell? “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81. Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl´ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai´des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge´en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai´des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai´des it uses that same translation for ge´en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge´en·na as “hell,” as it does hai´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured. Is there eternal punishment for the wicked? Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”) 2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.) Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.) What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation? Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou´] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was c ast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” As already discussed in a post above, what is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba´sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW. What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is? Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.” After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins? Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality? Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.) Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not! By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death? Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself. What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54. What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire? In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389. But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44. david. Ok, I'm done now.  The answers to any questions may be found in the last couple pages.  I've tried to organize it clearly.

Hi david,
Having clarified that “hell” is a term that can mean Sheol or Hades or the Lake of Fire why would anyone return to the use of this badly translated word?

Sheol or Death and Hades are terms entirely reserved as places of waiting till the judgement. There is no suggestion that they describe places of eternal use anywhere in the new or the Old Testament. After the first and the second resurrection comes the final Judgement, for those who are not in Christ but of the World.

After that time these places have no further use but the second death, the Lake of Fire does. It is the only place the term “hell” can be applied to. I think you, like many, prefer not to see the truth that scripture reveals about it's nature.

[david]

Quote

Rev 20.14 ” then DEATH and HADES were thrown in the Lake of fire” Scripture does not waste words. You say “hades” means “death” and yet they are differentiated here. Why? Just because Sheol is used in one verse and Hades at another also does not prove the words are interchangeable. Hades is part of Sheol and so some verses are more specific than others without changing the meaning. Again you refuse to accept the teaching of Jesus Christ on Hades in Lk 16. Why?

Nick, I don't remember ever saying that hades = death. I would like to know where I said that. Where exactly? If I said that accidently, (which I don't think I did) I'm sorry. But, I'd like to know where you think I said that.

Luke 16? That's ok Nick. Jesus explained why he spoke in parables. So I don't expect you to see what this illustration means. “It's a lovely story.” Yes Nick, believe that.
But what I do expect you to understand are the other very clear scriptures that speak of the soul and hades. You seem blind to them. (2Cor 4:4)

JUST TO BE CLEAR, you are saying that Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus is to be taken literally? Is that what you're saying? Are you saying that? Is this what you believe Nick? It is to be taken literally? Literally? Yes, or No?

[david]

Quote

Hi david, Is Abel silent in Sheol? Enoch is very interesting on this subject. Gen 3.10 “He said'The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground..'” Hebrews 12.24 ” and to Jesus , the mediator of a new covenant , and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel”

As we've learned, “soul” often means the life of a person.

In the Bible, the soul is said to be in the blood because blood is so intimately involved in the life processes. God’s Word says: “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.” (Le 17:11) For like reason, but making the connection even more direct, the Bible says: “The soul of every sort of flesh is its blood.” (Le 17:14) Clearly, God’s Word treats both life and blood as sacred.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2005,01:08)

Quote Rev 20.14 ” then DEATH and HADES were thrown in the Lake of fire” Scripture does not waste words. You say “hades” means “death” and yet they are differentiated here. Why? Just because Sheol is used in one verse and Hades at another also does not prove the words are interchangeable. Hades is part of Sheol and so some verses are more specific than others without changing the meaning. Again you refuse to accept the teaching of Jesus Christ on Hades in Lk 16. Why? Nick, I don't remember ever saying that hades = death.  I would like to know where I said that.  Where exactly?  If I said that accidently, (which I don't think I did) I'm sorry.  But, I'd like to know where you think I said that. Luke 16?  That's ok Nick.  Jesus explained why he spoke in parables.  So I don't expect you to see what this illustration means.  “It's a lovely story.”  Yes Nick, believe that. But what I do expect you to understand are the other very clear scriptures that speak of the soul and hades.  You seem blind to them. (2Cor 4:4)   JUST TO BE CLEAR, you are saying that Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus is to be taken literally?  Is that what you're saying?  Are you saying that?  Is this what you believe Nick?  It is to be taken literally?  Literally?  Yes, or No?

Hi david,
No you misread me. Sheol = death you may have said and I would agree. It is just that scripture specifies Hades and Death are separate things.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2005,01:08)

Quote Rev 20.14 ” then DEATH and HADES were thrown in the Lake of fire” Scripture does not waste words. You say “hades” means “death” and yet they are differentiated here. Why? Just because Sheol is used in one verse and Hades at another also does not prove the words are interchangeable. Hades is part of Sheol and so some verses are more specific than others without changing the meaning. Again you refuse to accept the teaching of Jesus Christ on Hades in Lk 16. Why? Nick, I don't remember ever saying that hades = death.  I would like to know where I said that.  Where exactly?  If I said that accidently, (which I don't think I did) I'm sorry.  But, I'd like to know where you think I said that. Luke 16?  That's ok Nick.  Jesus explained why he spoke in parables.  So I don't expect you to see what this illustration means.  “It's a lovely story.”  Yes Nick, believe that. But what I do expect you to understand are the other very clear scriptures that speak of the soul and hades.  You seem blind to them. (2Cor 4:4)   JUST TO BE CLEAR, you are saying that Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus is to be taken literally?  Is that what you're saying?  Are you saying that?  Is this what you believe Nick?  It is to be taken literally?  Literally?  Yes, or No?

Hi david,
The short answer is yes.
It is an unusual parable. It gives a name to the poor man. What it does not say is that any description of anything in the story is allegorical.
Look at the previous parable. Are there vineyards and vineyard owners, servants and sons? Yes .None of the structure of what is described is allegorical.
In the parable of the man assaulted on the way from Jerusalem to Jericho. Does the road exist, are there robbers, Samaritans, Levites and Priests? Yes.
What about the growing seed or the field sowed with wheat or the wedding feast, or the fishermen sorting their catch. Are they real?Yes etc etc.
All the parables use everyday familiar fact to build a story on. You say this parable is different and is based on nonsense. that decision is yours but it flies in the face of the usual presentation of parables does it not?

It appears you do not accept the words of the Master because they do not fit with your doctrinal base.

[david]

No, but rather, you ignore the rest of scripture and build your thoughts around how you interpret this “unusual parable,” as you say, which you take literally. If it is to be taken literally, as you say, I'm not sure it really would be a “parable,” as you say.

If it were to be taken literally, as you say, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham.

If it were to be taken literally as you say, it would mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades.

It would mean that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

But MOST IMPORTANTLY, AND THIS IS THE POINT YOU SEEM TO MISS as you cling to your, YOUR interpretation, IF IT WERE LITERAL, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible.

We know the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? First, look at the context, the preceeding verses. The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

David.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Why disturb a man who is happy with his doctrines I ask myself? Throw the baby out with the bathwater and allegorise everything and then you can ignore the teaching entirely

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2005,01:13)

Quote Hi david, Is Abel silent in Sheol? Enoch is very interesting on this subject. Gen 3.10 “He said'The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground..'” Hebrews 12.24 ” and to Jesus , the mediator of a new covenant , and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel” As we've learned, “soul” often means the life of a person. In the Bible, the soul is said to be in the blood because blood is so intimately involved in the life processes. God’s Word says: “For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.” (Le 17:11) For like reason, but making the connection even more direct, the Bible says: “The soul of every sort of flesh is its blood.” (Le 17:14) Clearly, God’s Word treats both life and blood as sacred.

Quite so david,
Indeed life remains after death as the soul sleeps. Jesus said so about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.
Matt 22.31f
” …Have you not read what was spoken to you by God
'I am the God of Abraham. and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
He is not the God of the dead but of the living”

Not only that but he also said in Jn 8.56
” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad”

So the same Abraham who was unable to comfort the rich man in Hades indeed is alive and aware of activities on earth even after his death.

[david]

No Nick, please don't throw out your baby. I don't think you should become so frustrated or upset that you should lose all sence and throw your baby away with the bathwater. Please don't!
Is that what you wanted me to say? To take your words literally? Sometimes taking things literally leads to wrong conclusions.
This is such a time.
Is it because of Mat 22:31 and John 8:56 that you believe as you do? Let's look at those scriptures.

He counted those men as alive because of the resurrection that He, “the God, not of the dead, but of the living,” purposed to give them.
God, because of his power, “makes the dead alive AND CALLS THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS THOUGH THEY ARE.” Paul includes this fact when speaking of Abraham’s faith.—Mt 22:23, 31-33; Ro 4:17.

Many times in scripture, Jehovah speaks as though something is already done, even the the event described is in the future. This is because for Jehovah, it is an absolute certainty. It is as good as done. Of course, these ones would come back to life. In fact, to God, it was as good as done. Time is different for him. A thousand years, a day for us, etc.
Remember too that Jehovah's memory is perfect.

Even though Abraham was dead, Jehovah “makes the dead alive AND CALLS THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS THOUGH THEY ARE.”
So says Scripture.

Nick, you also say:
” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad”

Speaking of Abraham and others, Heb 11:13 says:
“In faith all these [including Abraham] died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but THEY SAW THEM AFAR OFF and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.”
So Hebrew 11:13 says something very similar to John 8, in speaking of Abraham, but it clarifies, it sets things straight. (2 Tim 3:16)

If those two scriptures are the basis for your believing that the parable of the rich man and lazarus and the events described in that parable are to be taken literally, then you may now freely change your mind, having had this cleared up.

david.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
In Lk 16 Jesus quoted Abraham. Are you saying he lied?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 30 2005,06:18)

Hi david, In Lk 16 Jesus quoted Abraham. Are you saying he lied?

Which of you being sinful would burn their son forever, and ever? Why would anyone think LOVE would.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
We cannot design a God according to our view of life or according to what sort of God we would like Him to be. We need to find out about God from what He reveals about Himself in the bible.

He is love.
He understands our weakness.
He is also merciful.
He offers all redemption.
But he demands we accept His terms for reconciliation.
We must listen to His Son who delivered those terms to us on His behalf.
We must be born again.

Outside of those terms He also will offer mercy to the poor and downtrodden and those who in any small way have helped those who are reconciled with Him and are promoting His kingdom.

[david]

I was about to ask the same question Kenrch. “God is love.” What loving parent would put their child's hand on the stove burner if their child sinned. No parent I know. Isn't God more loving, more just, than any human parent?

It is a disgrace to Jehovah Almighty to slander him in such a disrespectful light. To say that he created a place where people are burned alive for all eternity “never came up into his heart.”

It is Satan (opposer) the Devil (slanderer) who wants us to think of Jehovah as a mean cruel unjust God. And many have actually turned away from God because of this teaching.

I look forward to the day when Jehovah's name is sanctified, when his name is cleared of all such reproach and lies.

Let his name be sanctified.

I think I may have missed where Abraham quoted. Did I? Where are you refering? I would look it up myself, but right now, I only had 5 minutes. I have to go again.

Nick, It seems quite odd to me that someone could see the trinity belief for what it is, to be so clear on that, and yet remain so Babylonish in your view of the soul, and hellfire as well.

“Come out of her my people,..”

I urge you to look up every scripture with the word “soul” in it.
I urge you to consider the meaning of EACH of these scriptures.
I also urge you to look at Babylonian beliefs and Greek philosophy and consider what influence they have had on you.

david.

[Adam Pastor]

(Luke 12:5)  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [GEHENNA]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Luke 16.25f
” But Abraham said
'Child , remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things;but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us'
And he said;then I beg you father, that you send him to my father's house -for I have five brothers-in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment'
But Abraham said
'They have Moses and the prophets, so let them hear them'
But he said
'No father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent'
But he said to him
'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead'”

So we should neither judge the God who has made these things as they are revealed and neither should we judge the words given to us by Jesus Christ.

According to this teaching under the OT there are two places of waiting for the dead before judgement;

One is of comfort and one of torment.
They are visible to each other and within conversation range.
They are separated by an impassable chasm.
Those in them do not return to be with the living.
The word of God must be listened to by the living.
Abraham is in the place of comfort.
Abraham is alive and able to converse.
Abraham heard the cry for help and replied thrice.

Which of these statements do you deny?T hese derivations are from the words of Jesus Christ and I believe we deny them at our peril.

[kenrch]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 30 2005,23:54)

(Luke 12:5)  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [GEHENNA]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

[david]

If you want to destroy something, do you crush it? Chop it up? Soak it in water? What do you do?
All the worlds incinerators testify to the fact that if you want to destroy something, you burn it. Hence, fire is a symbol of complete destruction.

Gehenna is Symbolic of Complete Destruction.
It is evident that Jesus used Gehenna as representative of utter destruction resulting from adverse judgment by God, hence with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible. (Mt 10:28; Lu 12:4, 5) The scribes and Pharisees as a wicked class were denounced as ‘subjects for Gehenna.’ (Mt 23:13-15, 33) To avoid such destruction, Jesus’ followers were to get rid of anything causing spiritual stumbling, the ‘cutting off of a hand or foot’ and the ‘tearing out of an eye’ figuratively representing their deadening of these body members with reference to sin.—Mt 18:9; Mr 9:43-47; Col 3:5; compare Mt 5:27-30.

Jesus also apparently alluded to Isaiah 66:24 in describing Gehenna as a place “where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mr 9:47, 48) That the symbolic picture here is not one of torture but, rather, of complete destruction is evident from the fact that the Isaiah text dealt, not with persons who were alive, but with “the carcasses of the men that were transgressing” against God. If, as the available evidence indicates, the Valley of Hinnom was a place for the disposal of garbage and carcasses, fire, perhaps increased in intensity by the addition of sulfur (compare Isa 30:33), would be the only suitable means to eliminate such refuse. Where the fire did not reach, worms, or maggots, would breed, consuming anything not destroyed by the fire. On this basis, Jesus’ words would mean that the destructive effect of God’s adverse judgment would not cease until complete destruction was attained.

[david]

‘GRANTED,’ someone might say, ‘Hades is never used in the Bible to refer to a place of fiery torment. But does not the Bible speak of “hell fire”?’

True, numerous translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the “New Testament”) use the expression “hell fire” or “fires of hell.” In this case the Greek term rendered “hell” is ge´en·na (Gehenna). But is Gehenna the name of a place of fiery torment? Yes, say many of Christendom’s commentators. Yet they well know that the soul is not immortal. They also know that the Scriptures show that immortality is bestowed as a reward only upon those whom God designates as worthy of receiving it, and not as a curse on the wicked so that they might be tormented everlastingly.—Romans 2:6, 7; 1 Corinthians 15:53, 54.

Other commentators of Christendom acknowledge that Gehenna is not a place of eternal fiery torment. Says The New Bible Commentary (page 779): “Gehenna was the Hellenized form of the name of the valley of Hinnom at Jerusalem in which fires were kept constantly burning to consume the refuse of the city. This is a powerful picture of final destruction.”

What is the truth of the matter? The best way to find out is to examine what the Bible itself says.

The term “Gehenna” is found twelve times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Once it is used by the disciple James, and eleven times it appears in statements attributed to Jesus Christ and relates to a condemnatory judgment. These texts read:

“I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ [thereby wrongly judging and condemning his brother as morally worthless] will be liable to the fiery Gehenna.”—Matthew 5:22.

“Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”—Matthew 10:28.

“I will indicate to you whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.”—Luke 12:5.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one you make him a subject for Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves. Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?”—Matthew 23:15, 33.

“If ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go off into Gehenna, into the fire that cannot be put out. And if your foot makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life lame than with two feet to be pitched into Gehenna. And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Gehenna, where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.”—Mark 9:43-48; see also the similarly worded passages at Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:8, 9.

“Well, the tongue is a fire. The tongue is constituted a world of unrighteousness among our members, for it spots up all the body and sets the wheel of natural life aflame and it is set aflame by Gehenna [that is, improper use of the tongue is as destructive as Gehenna; it can so affect the whole round of life into which a person comes by birth that it can lead to his meriting the judgment of Gehenna].”—James 3:6.

Note that, while these texts associate fire with Gehenna, none of them speak of any conscious existence, any suffering, after death. Rather, as shown at Matthew 10:28, Jesus pointed out that God can “destroy,” not merely the body, but the entire person, the soul, in Gehenna. Just what is the nature of this destruction? An understanding of this is gleaned from a closer examination of the word “Gehenna.”

GEHENNA—THE VALLEY OF HINNOM

Though found in the Christian Greek Scriptures, “Gehenna” is drawn from two Hebrew words, Ga´i and Hin·nom´, meaning Valley of Hinnom. This valley lay south and southwest of Jerusalem. In the days of faithless Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh the Valley of Hinnom served as a place for idolatrous religious rites, including the abhorrent practice of child sacrifice. (2 Chronicles 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2, 6) Later, good King Josiah put a stop to the idolatrous worship carried on there and made the valley unfit to use for worship.—2 Kings 23:10.

Tradition relates that the Valley of Hinnom thereafter became a place for the disposal of garbage. And the Bible provides confirmation for this. At Jeremiah 31:40, for example, the Valley of Hinnom is evidently called the “low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes.” There was also the “Gate of the Ash-heaps,” a gate that seems to have opened out onto the eastern extremity of the Valley of Hinnom at its juncture with the Kidron Valley.—Nehemiah 3:13, 14.

That Gehenna should be linked with the destructive aspects of a city dump is in full agreement with the words of Jesus Christ. With reference to Gehenna, he said, “their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mark 9:48) His words evidently allude to the fact that fires burned continually at the city dump, perhaps being intensified by the addition of sulfur. Where the fire did not reach, worms or maggots would breed and feed on what was not consumed by fire.

It should also be observed that Jesus, in speaking of Gehenna in this way, did not introduce a concept completely foreign to the Hebrew Scriptures. In those earlier Scriptures practically identical wording appears in references to what will befall the ungodly.

Isaiah 66:24 foretells that persons having God’s favor “will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against [God]; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh.” Clearly this is not a picture of conscious torment but of a terrible destruction. What are left are, not conscious souls or “disembodied spirits,” but dead “carcasses.” The scripture shows that it is, not the humans, but the maggots or worms upon them that are alive. No mention is made here of any “immortal soul.”

In the prophecy of Jeremiah the Valley of Hinnom is similarly linked with a destruction of faithless humans. “‘Look! there are days coming,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘when this place will be called no more Topheth and the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the killing. And I will make void the counsel of Judah and of Jerusalem in this place, and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those seeking for their soul. And I will give their dead bodies as food to the flying creatures of the heavens and to the beasts of the earth.’”—Jeremiah 19:6, 7.

Note that Jeremiah’s reference to the Valley of Hinnom contains no hint of conscious torment after death. The picture drawn is one of total destruction, the “dead bodies” being consumed by scavenger birds and beasts.

A SYMBOL OF DESTRUCTION

In keeping with the Biblical evidence, then, Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom could appropriately serve as a symbol of destruction but not of conscious fiery torment. Joseph E. Kokjohn, in the Catholic periodical Commonweal, acknowledges this, saying:

“The final place of punishment, evidently, is Gehenna, the Valley of Hinno[m], which at one time had been a place where human sacrifice was offered to pagan gods, but in biblical times had already become the city dump, a refuse heap on the outskirts of Jerusalem. Here the stench and smoke and fire were a constant reminder to the inhabitants of what happened to things that had se
rved their purpose—they were destroyed.”

That the destruction symbolized by Gehenna is a lasting one is shown elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures. The apostle Paul, when writing to Christians at Thessalonica, said that those causing them tribulation would “undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength.”—2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.

Biblical evidence thus makes it plain that those whom God judges as undeserving of life will experience, not eternal torment in a literal fire, but “everlasting destruction.” They will not be preserved alive anywhere. The fire of Gehenna is therefore but a symbol of the totality and thoroughness of that destruction.

It is noteworthy that, in addressing the religious leaders of his day, Jesus Christ said: “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?” (Matthew 23:33) Why was this? It was because those religious leaders were hypocrites. They desired to be looked up to and addressed with high-sounding titles, but they had no regard for those whom they were to help spiritually. They burdened others down with traditional regulations, and disregarded justice, mercy and faithfulness. They were false teachers, placing human traditions above the authority of God’s Word.—Matthew 15:3-6; 23:1-32.

Have you noticed like things among the religious leaders of today, particularly in Christendom? Will they fare any better than the religious leaders of Judaism in the days of Jesus’ earthly ministry? Not in the least, for Christendom’s religious leaders have disobediently misrepresented God and the “good news about our Lord Jesus.” So as long as they persist in teaching false doctrines they stand in danger of undergoing the “judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.”

The truth about Gehenna therefore should help us to appreciate the importance of avoiding association with false religion. Not only the leaders but, as Jesus showed, also those who support the false religious teachers are in danger. Jesus Christ, in fact, spoke of a proselyte of the scribes and Pharisees as becoming a ‘subject for Gehenna twice as much so as they were.’ (Matthew 23:15) Hence, people who blindly continue to follow false religious teaching today cannot hope to escape God’s adverse judgment.

[david]

Nick, if we are told a hundred times that something is so in the Bible,

and we come upon a story that Jesus gave which may or may not be an illustration or parable, knowing that Jesus spoke a great great deal in illustrations,

and this story that we're considering if taken literally and not as an illustration contradicts those other hundred scriptures, which all have the same weight as this story,

what do we do?

Do we cling to the one and abondon the other hundred scriptures?

Or do we look at it as one of the many other illustrations that Jesus gave?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2005,19:04)

Nick, if we are told a hundred times that something is so in the Bible, and we come upon a story that Jesus gave which may or may not be an illustration or parable, knowing that Jesus spoke a great great deal in illustrations, and this story that we're considering if taken literally and not as an illustration contradicts those other hundred scriptures, which all have the same weight as this story, what do we do? Do we cling to the one and abondon the other hundred scriptures? Or do we look at it as one of the many other illustrations that Jesus gave?

Hi david,
“scripture cannot be broken”.
We move the tent pegs to include the new information.

Either that or prove it is;

Wrongly translated or
An addition to the bible

[Author]

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