Hades/hell

[david]

Quote

Does God usually create mortal things and beings?

Well, we know he created humans, with free will. They were not mortal, but could be given the gift of everlasting life (and some, those who are to rule with Christ, immortality). But we know they were not created immortal. Immortal means you cannot die, correct? Yet, they died.
They were not created with the purpose of dying, yet they did. There is a difference between having immortality and being given eternal life.
Someone who is given eternal life WILL not die. Someone who God has given immortality to CANNOT die.

So, in answer to your question: Does God usually create mortal things? Well, he created both humans and angels, both with free will.
What happens if one of them decides they want to be an enemy of God? Will he allow that for all time? No. So to have given them immortality at their creation and have given them free will would have created problems.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ June 22 2006,06:41)

Quote Why would you call angels demons if scripture does not? Why would you say angels are immortal if scripture does not?

Hi david,
Without confusing angels with demons;

Does scripture say angels are mortal?
Does scripture say they are immortal?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ June 22 2006,06:31)

Quote Is immortality only “granted” to beings like a gift? Or is eternal life more the natural way of God's creation? There's a subtle difference between having everlasting life and being immortal.

Hi david,
Was Jesus mortal or immortal?

[david]

Here it is.

[david]

Ok, this is not the right thread. Nick, do you remember where we were discussing the witch of endor and Samuel and Saul? I think it may be in the “soul” thread.

[NickHassan]

Soul I think david.

[david]

Yes, you were right.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ June 22 2006,06:47)

Quote Does God usually create mortal things and beings? Well, we know he created humans, with free will.  They were not mortal, but could be given the gift of everlasting life (and some, those who are to rule with Christ, immortality).  But we know they were not created immortal.  Immortal means you cannot die, correct?  Yet, they died.   They were not created with the purpose of dying, yet they did.  There is a difference between having immortality and being given eternal life.   Someone who is given eternal life WILL not die.  Someone who God has given immortality to CANNOT die. So, in answer to your question: Does God usually create mortal things?  Well, he created both humans and angels, both with free will. What happens if one of them decides they want to be an enemy of God?  Will he allow that for all time?  No.  So to have given them immortality at their creation and have given them free will would have created problems.

Hi,
Here david espouses another bizarre JW doctrine where there are two classes of salvation and a “PASS GO free” card.

[Please correct me iif I am wrong.]

First class salvation
144,000 JWs go to heaven and become rulers and judges and have eternal life.  [psst..They really do not want too many to join them because that makes competition for places too fierce and it is hard enough already]

Second class
Some of the Great men of Old and perhaps some other non JWs are given a form of immortality that is refundable if behaviour is unacceptable.

Third class.
Everyone else is forgiven anyway so no worries if they are just evaporated into non existence.

In case you scream
“look at the scriptures”
do not waste your time and breath, because scripture is only a helpful additional source of information to the main basis of their doctrines which is ?

-HUMAN REASONING.

Good luck chaps

[Ramblinrose]

David

I believe the thread you are looking for is 'What is Man' I have brought it forward for you.

Much material on body/soul/spirit has been discussed in this thread.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi,
In Rev 19 20 the two men, the beast and the false prophet, are seized and thrown into the Lake of fire.
Then there is the first resurrection and the 1000 yr reign.
Then in Rev 20 10 it says
“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE ALSO;and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”

So much for instant incineration which some preach.

[david]

Quote

Hi, Here david espouses another bizarre JW doctrine where there are two classes of salvation and a “PASS GO free” card. [Please correct me iif I am wrong.

This is the hell/hades thread, and this conversation has gone past that topic.
Nick, I have never used nor heard the expressions: “two classes of slavation” or “Pass Go Free card.” You failed to continue what I was asking you and jumpted to the use of 'bazare doctrine.'

Here, I'll correct you if you like:

Quote

First class salvation 144,000 JWs go to heaven and become rulers and judges and have eternal life. [psst..They really do not want too many to join them because that makes competition for places too fierce and it is hard enough already]

They are not “first class,” as though one salvation is better. They have a different role, it is true. They are to rule as kings. Whom do they rule over Nick? Not everyone needs to be a ruler do they? Rulers need someone to rule over don't they? Judges need people to judge, don't they? If everyone is a ruler, what is the point of calling them rulers? If all judges, why use that word?
Secondly, the second part of what you said is utter nonsense. The [….] part. I've never said anything remotely like that. Have I? So why do you say it?

Nick, as for the rest of what you said, I feel sorry for you. What websites are you getting this from? There are many many anti-JW sites out there. They don't represent the truth Nick. And you're depiction of Jehovah's Witnesses doesn't represent the truth either? So why continue to say things that are wrong? You are wrong Nick. I just can't believe how wrong.

So Nick, “Does God usually create mortal things and beings”?

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
So are you saying more than 144,00 go to heaven to be ruled, while Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Isaiah have to spend their “possible” conditional eternity on earth?

[david]

Moses, Joshua, etc….do you not believe they will spend eternity on earth?
We are not the judge. But is their any reason these ones wouldn't be given everlasting life on earth? Don't you believe they will be on earth?

This earthly promise was the hope of these ones.

Then Jesus came to the earth and made a “new covenant” with certain ones for “a kingdom.” A kingdom is a government. Goverrnments have people that are ruled over. We are told that these brothers of Christ would make up the kingdom, and would “rule” as kings, priests and judges.

Nick, who do they rule over? Each other?
Who do they judge?

david.

[david]

Recently, the question of eternal torment has been raised.

Did God Almighty create a place where people would be tortured for all time because of their sins on earth?

This thread looks at that question.

[Proclaimer]

How do the JWs counter-argue Moses and Elijah appearing in glory with Christ? Or are they part of the JW 144000?

[NickHassan]

Sorry t8,
Second class citizens of the Kingdom I am afraid – not as good as the JWs apparently.

Is that Emperor really wearing any clothes?

[NickHassan]

This is topical

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Why did Jesus speak of Hades\hell to Peter?
Matt 16
” 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

[david]

When a person died he was referred to as having entered “the gates of death.” (Ps 9:13; 107:18) He went into the common grave for mankind and so entered the gates of Sheol-Hades. (Isa 38:10; Mt 16:18) Since Jesus Christ has the keys of death and of Hades (Re 1:18), his congregation has had the assurance that death and Hades would not hold them forever in bondage.
Concerning the Christian congregation, Jesus said, at Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of Hades [“powers of death,” RS] will not overpower it.” Similarly, King Hezekiah, when on the verge of death, said: “In the midst of my days I will go into the gates of Sheol.” (Isa 38:10) It, therefore, becomes apparent that Jesus’ promise of victory over Hades means that its “gates” will open to release the dead by means of a resurrection, even as was the case with Christ Jesus himself.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Where is this common grave? Are those who die in the sea in it?

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