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Quote Hi david,
No, If they became known as demons scripture would have said that. But it did not so, such is empty speculation.REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and HIS ANGELS were hurled down with him.”There, the Bible shows it. done.
Quote Angels are of heaven.
Demons are of earth.Doctors are of hospitals.
Non doctors are not.Yet, sometimes…..
A doctor may leave a hospital Nick. We know some of the angels “forsook their proper dwelling place.” What then? Was all still good? They “sinned.” They in fact rebelled against God. Was that ok? Was everything fine? Or were they, those angels, now called demons?
Revelation 12:9, a Bible scripture answers. (Your silence on this scripture also answers.)
Quote But their [ANGELS] home is heaven till cast to the earth in the endtimes. Nick,
JUDE 5-6
“I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that Jehovah, although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith. And THE ANGELS THAT DID NOT KEEP THEIR ORIGIAL POSITION but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”Hi david,
Are you suggesting that your bible translation as position means place of living?
Or does it mean not maintaining their position in the order appointed by God?
The Sons of God, who were above men, went outside of their God-appointed order to sleep with women.
That was the sin.
They were not cast to earth because of that then but continued to have access to God in heaven as Job 1-2 shows.
They were meant to be serving God as watchers of men.Quote (david @ June 20 2006,04:24) Quote Hi david,
No, If they became known as demons scripture would have said that. But it did not so, such is empty speculation.REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and HIS ANGELS were hurled down with him.”There, the Bible shows it. done.
Quote Angels are of heaven.
Demons are of earth.Doctors are of hospitals.
Non doctors are not.Yet, sometimes…..
A doctor may leave a hospital Nick. We know some of the angels “forsook their proper dwelling place.” What then? Was all still good? They “sinned.” They in fact rebelled against God. Was that ok? Was everything fine? Or were they, those angels, now called demons?
Revelation 12:9, a Bible scripture answers. (Your silence on this scripture also answers.)
Hi david,
Are all the events shown in Revelation all past history or are they prophetic?
Does it not speak of the future?
Or is this verse unique describing past events and all the rest are prophetic?
Has the war in heaven already happened?
Has the woman fled to her place of protection for 1260 days already?v12
“For this reason rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea; because the devil has come down on you, having great wrath, knowing he has only a short time”What a relief to know this is all history!
Quote Are all the events shown in Revelation all past history or are they prophetic?
Does it not speak of the future?Notice what John says near the beginning of that book:
By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day,
When it was written, it was definitely all in the future, because it said that what was being revealed was the things that must shortly take place.
Quote Hi david,
Are all the events shown in Revelation all past history or are they prophetic?
Does it not speak of the future?
Or is this verse unique describing past events and all the rest are prophetic?
Has the war in heaven already happened?
Has the woman fled to her place of protection for 1260 days already?v12
“For this reason rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea; because the devil has come down on you, having great wrath, knowing he has only a short time”What a relief to know this is all history!
Anyway, none of this addresses why Satan the devil would have “angels.” He is the “ruler of the demons.” And here, he is said to have angels. This indicates that these demons were angels. Angels are spirit creatures. Demons are spirit creatures. Cannot the demons be spirit creatures who were once in good standing with God?
Quote v12
“For this reason rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea; because the devil has come down on you, having great wrath, knowing he has only a short time”What a relief to know this is all history!
His being hurled down is history. But the short time reamains, as does the wrath that we can see in the world. The last century was a very different one. For example, we've always had wars, but the world had never gone to war before.
Hi david,
Is Satan or Beelzebub the ruler of the demons?
Are they the same?
We know the sons of God in Gen 6 are angelic so Satan had evil angelic accomplices.But are demons angels?
Not according to what is written.
Have you read Enoch?
Hi,
I have been unfair to the NASB. Whenever the word “hell” is used in NASB it means gehenna or the Lake of fire with the exception of
2 Peter 2.4
5020 Tartaroo or Tartarus-the waiting place for the evil angels.Hades always means Hades.
KJV makes no such distinctions.
Hi ,
Matt 13.41
“..and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”So how can instant death be compared with a place where people weep and gnash their teeth?
Hi Adam,
Clayton's?It looks like the real thing but isn't.
It related to a nonalcoholic drink that tasted like the real thing.
Quote (david @ June 20 2006,05:15) Quote Are all the events shown in Revelation all past history or are they prophetic?
Does it not speak of the future?Notice what John says near the beginning of that book:
By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day,
When it was written, it was definitely all in the future, because it said that what was being revealed was the things that must shortly take place.
Quote Hi david,
Are all the events shown in Revelation all past history or are they prophetic?
Does it not speak of the future?
Or is this verse unique describing past events and all the rest are prophetic?
Has the war in heaven already happened?
Has the woman fled to her place of protection for 1260 days already?v12
“For this reason rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea; because the devil has come down on you, having great wrath, knowing he has only a short time”What a relief to know this is all history!
Anyway, none of this addresses why Satan the devil would have “angels.” He is the “ruler of the demons.” And here, he is said to have angels. This indicates that these demons were angels. Angels are spirit creatures. Demons are spirit creatures. Cannot the demons be spirit creatures who were once in good standing with God?
Quote v12
“For this reason rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea; because the devil has come down on you, having great wrath, knowing he has only a short time”What a relief to know this is all history!
His being hurled down is history. But the short time reamains, as does the wrath that we can see in the world. The last century was a very different one. For example, we've always had wars, but the world had never gone to war before.
So david,
When was Satan hurled down with one third of the heavenly angels?
Have evil angels walked the earth for centuries?
Surely you do not mean when Jesus said he saw Satan falling from heaven?Quote (david @ June 20 2006,04:26) Quote But their [ANGELS] home is heaven till cast to the earth in the endtimes. Nick,
JUDE 5-6
“I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that Jehovah, although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith. And THE ANGELS THAT DID NOT KEEP THEIR ORIGIAL POSITION but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”
Hi david,
These words were written well after Jesus spoke of seeing Satan falling from heaven, which could have been a prophetic image of the Revelation verse.
Have you read Enoch, or is it forbidden reading?Quote (david @ June 20 2006,04:26) Quote But their [ANGELS] home is heaven till cast to the earth in the endtimes. Nick,
JUDE 5-6
“I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that Jehovah, although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith. And THE ANGELS THAT DID NOT KEEP THEIR ORIGIAL POSITION but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”
Hi david,
So these evil angels are not on earth. They are held in bondage in Tartatoo which is not on earth. They are waiting to be cast to earth in the endtimes surely?
Demons were a problem in the time of Jesus, well before any casting to earth of angels.. So angels are not demons or vice versa are they?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2006,19:59) Hi Adam,
Clayton's?It looks like the real thing but isn't.
It related to a nonalcoholic drink that tasted like the real thing.
thanksQuote (david @ June 20 2006,03:05) God’s angels are shown to be mortal, despite their possessing spirit bodies, not carnal ones. Angelic mortality is evident in view of the judgment of death entered against the spirit son who became God’s Adversary, or Satan, and also against those other angels who followed that satanic course and “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6; Lu 4:33,34; Mt 25:41; Re 20:10, 14) “Now in the synagogue there was a man with a spirit, an unclean demon, and he shouted with a loud voice: 34 “Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene´? Did you come to destroy us?” (Luke 4:33,34)
If someone can be 'destroyed' they are not immortal. We are told they face the second “death,” the lake of fire. This means death, not everlasting life, but “death.” Just as hades and death are thrown into this lake of fire, so are they. It means destruction. The angels can be destroyed. (Luke)
Quote Hi david,
What do you make of Lk 20.35f
LUKE 20:34-38
“Jesus said to them: “The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.””Here is where we will differ. This is speaking of the earthly resurrection. Again, I believe there is the “little flock” of sheep made up of 144,000 who go to heaven. These are granted immortality.
But those before the new covenant, along with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will not recieve immortality. They are not part of that new covenant, for a kingdom.
“Those who have been counted worthy” of this special privilege to be priests and judges and rulers, will.But such faithful ones who are not part of that covenant will not receive immortality, but will be like the angels. How so? In that the angels are mortal, but by remaining loyal to Jehovah they will never die.
Being rewarded with the right to everlasting life, they cannot have their life taken away from them by anyone else without authorization from God. Endless life on earth is a blessing that only Jehovah can provide, and he will provide it and preserve it.
I know you will obvioulsy disagree with me. But in view of the fact that angels can be destroyed, as a demon itself stated, it is hard to argue that they are immortal. Nowhere does the Bible say they have been granted immortality.
Hi david,
The concern shown by the demon in the man in Luke that he might be destroyed is not proof that they are destroyed. But it is strong evidence that the demon recognised that Jesus had the power and authority to give life and to take it away.The legion of them in the naked man also knew who he was, “the Son of the Living God”, a concept which many men still cannot accept.
There is no evidence that angels are demons. Jesus told us a lot about demons and their nature and how they try to find a body to live in but he never intimated they were angels. Scripture is also full of references to angels but they are never said to be demons are they? Angels have their own heavenly bodies so why would they want to live in ours?
So back to your assertion that angels are mortal based on your premise that they are demons, and the scripture from Luke, it seems to lack a little substance now does it not, or can you clarify it for us?
Angels have free will nick. They are not robots. What if they abuse this? What if some (who we'll call demons) choose to mis use their free will?
Where does the Bible say they have been granted immortality?
Hi david,
Why would you call angels demons if scripture does not?
Once you can show they are they same as angels then we can move to talk about their mortality.Quote (david @ June 22 2006,05:30) Angels have free will nick. They are not robots. What if they abuse this? What if some (who we'll call demons) choose to mis use their free will? Where does the Bible say they have been granted immortality?
Hi david,
Is immortality only “granted” to beings like a gift?Or is eternal life more the natural way of God's creation?
Who was God speaking about when saying that if man had eaten from the tree of life he would be like US?
What did God mean?
Is not only that which is of earth condemned to mortality?
Does God usually create mortal things and beings?
Quote Is immortality only “granted” to beings like a gift? Or is eternal life more the natural way of God's creation?
There's a subtle difference between having everlasting life and being immortal.
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