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Hi david,
John said that those who do not obey the Son remain under the wrath of God in Jn 3.36.
We know that those in the Son who are obedient to the message from God do not even come unto judgement but have already passed from death to life.
We know that those who do not have their names written in the book of life of the Lamb are cast into the lake of fire.
The sons of God are those reborn into the Son.
Those that are outside of the Son have no claim to sonship any more.Your point was about God throwing His sons into the fire,
but now it is throwing anyone into that dread fire?Could your God not follow through on His warnings?
Is that not the false doctrine of Universalism?
How will God show His wrath to the disobedient ones?
God’s angels are shown to be mortal, despite their possessing spirit bodies, not carnal ones. Angelic mortality is evident in view of the judgment of death entered against the spirit son who became God’s Adversary, or Satan, and also against those other angels who followed that satanic course and “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6; Lu 4:33,34; Mt 25:41; Re 20:10, 14)
“Now in the synagogue there was a man with a spirit, an unclean demon, and he shouted with a loud voice: 34 “Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene´? Did you come to destroy us?” (Luke 4:33,34)
If someone can be 'destroyed' they are not immortal. We are told they face the second “death,” the lake of fire. This means death, not everlasting life, but “death.” Just as hades and death are thrown into this lake of fire, so are they. It means destruction. The angels can be destroyed. (Luke)
Quote Hi david,
What do you make of Lk 20.35f
LUKE 20:34-38
“Jesus said to them: “The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.””Here is where we will differ. This is speaking of the earthly resurrection. Again, I believe there is the “little flock” of sheep made up of 144,000 who go to heaven. These are granted immortality.
But those before the new covenant, along with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will not recieve immortality. They are not part of that new covenant, for a kingdom.
“Those who have been counted worthy” of this special privilege to be priests and judges and rulers, will.But such faithful ones who are not part of that covenant will not receive immortality, but will be like the angels. How so? In that the angels are mortal, but by remaining loyal to Jehovah they will never die.
Being rewarded with the right to everlasting life, they cannot have their life taken away from them by anyone else without authorization from God. Endless life on earth is a blessing that only Jehovah can provide, and he will provide it and preserve it.
I know you will obvioulsy disagree with me. But in view of the fact that angels can be destroyed, as a demon itself stated, it is hard to argue that they are immortal. Nowhere does the Bible say they have been granted immortality.
Quote How will God show His wrath to the disobedient ones? They will be cut off from life. They will be found undeserving of life and it will be taken from them. Jehovah is not a sadistic unjust God who burns people for all time for the sins of a few years on earth. Such a thought is uncompatible with his character. We are to be like him, imitate him. Can you imagine the world if they imitated your portrayal of God? Yikes!
Hi david,
Demons are not angels. But they are under the authority of Satan as Jesus showed when contrasting the two kingdoms. But demons are of earth and live in people. They were cast out by Jesus who spoke quite a lot about them.Angels are of heaven and are designed to be as servants and messengers of God.
The demons recognised the Authority of the Son of God over all things, even death, would be my view of why they questioned the Master.
Scripture shows us what God does. That is all we need to know.
Quote (david @ June 20 2006,03:05) God’s angels are shown to be mortal, despite their possessing spirit bodies, not carnal ones. Angelic mortality is evident in view of the judgment of death entered against the spirit son who became God’s Adversary, or Satan, and also against those other angels who followed that satanic course and “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6; Lu 4:33,34; Mt 25:41; Re 20:10, 14) “Now in the synagogue there was a man with a spirit, an unclean demon, and he shouted with a loud voice: 34 “Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene´? Did you come to destroy us?” (Luke 4:33,34)
If someone can be 'destroyed' they are not immortal. We are told they face the second “death,” the lake of fire. This means death, not everlasting life, but “death.” Just as hades and death are thrown into this lake of fire, so are they. It means destruction. The angels can be destroyed. (Luke)
Quote Hi david,
What do you make of Lk 20.35f
LUKE 20:34-38
“Jesus said to them: “The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.””Here is where we will differ. This is speaking of the earthly resurrection. Again, I believe there is the “little flock” of sheep made up of 144,000 who go to heaven. These are granted immortality.
But those before the new covenant, along with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will not recieve immortality. They are not part of that new covenant, for a kingdom.
“Those who have been counted worthy” of this special privilege to be priests and judges and rulers, will.But such faithful ones who are not part of that covenant will not receive immortality, but will be like the angels. How so? In that the angels are mortal, but by remaining loyal to Jehovah they will never die.
Being rewarded with the right to everlasting life, they cannot have their life taken away from them by anyone else without authorization from God. Endless life on earth is a blessing that only Jehovah can provide, and he will provide it and preserve it.
I know you will obvioulsy disagree with me. But in view of the fact that angels can be destroyed, as a demon itself stated, it is hard to argue that they are immortal. Nowhere does the Bible say they have been granted immortality.
Hi david,
We differ when you walk off the path of revelation into speculative fantasy.So at the resurrection some men will go to heaven?
Only those 'granted immortality' go to heaven?
They will be priests, judges and rulers in heaven?
Whom will they rule over, judge and minister to there?
This does not include the great men of God of the OT?
So we will have a divided destiny, some here, some there?
The rest will have a sort of Claytons immortality?
Angels are mortal, or did you mean demons?ok, some simple questions:
Who is Satan? Where did he come from?
Where did the demons come from? Where they created as demons by God? Or did they choose the wrong course?I was under the impression that Satan was an angel who decided to rebel. Today, he tries to appear as an “angel of light,” (2 cor 11;14) but of course he is really an angel of darkness. Anyway, there was Satan who rebelled turning himself into Satan (meaning “opposer”) and then some of the angels noticed the daughters of men and in effect joined Satan in rebellion by leaving their “proper dwelling place,” the heavens, and having sexual relations with women. (Jude 6) These became known as demons. They had turned from God. But they were once angels. The word “angel” of course really means “messenger.” But we are concerned with the messengers or angels that were spirit creatures.
Anyway, no, demons are not angels. They are angels who became known as demons. And scripture shows that they have free will. Since some of them chose badly, it's obvious that they haven't proven themselves worthy of “immortality,” and rightfully so. Some were undeserving.
Quote So at the resurrection some men will go to heaven?
Only those 'granted immortality' go to heaven?
They will be priests, judges and rulers in heaven?
Whom will they rule over, judge and minister to there?
This does not include the great men of God of the OT?
So we will have a divided destiny, some here, some there?
The rest will have a sort of Claytons immortality?
Angels are mortal, or did you mean demons?
Jesus instituted a new covenant. Those before that covenant for the kingdom will not rule as kings with him. How could they? They were never a part of that agreement. And yes, you know that the Bible speaks of those who will rule as kings and priests and judges. And yes, they will have to have someone to judge and rule over, won't they? Divided destiny? Some were granted a very very special privilige Nick–ruling with Christ Jesus over mankind. How loving to be ruled and judged by those that experienced the trials of being human. I'm not sure what “claytons immortality” is. There is a difference between having everlasting life and being granted immortality. Someone who is immortal can never die. Someone who has everlasting life will never die. But they don't have immortality. There's a difference.So, back to my questions about angels and demons.
REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his ANGELS were hurled down with him.”Nick, it appears that demons are just bad angels.
The Christian disciple Jude wrote about them when he mentioned “the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6)
These were the angels that forsook their proper dwelling place and really, forsook God. They became known as demons. But these wicked spirits were angels. And can still be called evil angels, as Rev 12:9 above does.
“The sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.” (Genesis 6:2)
With the flood, they did not drown. They put aside their fleshly bodies and returned to heaven as spirit persons. But they were not allowed to become part of God’s organization of holy angels again. Instead, the Bible says that “God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”—2 Peter 2:4.
These wicked angels were not thrown into a literal place called Tartarus. Rather, Tartarus, which is mistranslated “hell” in some Bibles, refers to the abased or fallen condition of these angels. They were cut off from the spiritual light of God’s organization, and they have only everlasting destruction awaiting them. (James 2:19; Jude 6)
Angels are not immortal. If they were immortal, then they couldn't die. But destruction faces these angels that sinned and forsook their proper dwelling place to do bad.
Quote (david @ June 20 2006,03:37) ok, some simple questions:
Who is Satan? Where did he come from?
Where did the demons come from? Where they created as demons by God? Or did they choose the wrong course?I was under the impression that Satan was an angel who decided to rebel. Today, he tries to appear as an “angel of light,” (2 cor 11;14) but of course he is really an angel of darkness. Anyway, there was Satan who rebelled turning himself into Satan (meaning “opposer”) and then some of the angels noticed the daughters of men and in effect joined Satan in rebellion by leaving their “proper dwelling place,” the heavens, and having sexual relations with women. (Jude 6) These became known as demons. They had turned from God. But they were once angels. The word “angel” of course really means “messenger.” But we are concerned with the messengers or angels that were spirit creatures.
Anyway, no, demons are not angels. They are angels who became known as demons. And scripture shows that they have free will. Since some of them chose badly, it's obvious that they haven't proven themselves worthy of “immortality,” and rightfully so. Some were undeserving.
Hi david,
Only in Enoch will you find the supposed origin of demons and they are not angels.
They are the spirits of progeny of the sons of God[angels \archangels]and their sexual relationships with women.They were not in the original plan of God any more than Mules are[Horse\donkey progeny]
Quote Only in Enoch will you find the supposed origin of demons and they are not angels.
What's Enoch? Is that the book before Hezekiah?Ok, then why does the Bible say that Satan and “his angels” were hurled down to the earth?
Oh, I see. The demons were the nephilim. Now I understand what you think.
Hi david,
The spirits of the Nephilim according to the noncanonical book of Enoch. Have you read it or any of the other noncanonical books?Hi david,
The hurling down of Satan from his continued accepted place in heaven, along with 1\3 of the angels is only an endtime events as shown in Revelation. Satan had wandered the earth[Job 1-2], where he had assumed squatters ruling rights, till God was ready to deal with him and to his evil agents.Quote They are the spirits of progeny of the sons of God[angels \archangels]and their sexual relationships with women. Ok, so what about the angels that forsook their proper dwelling place?
2 PETER 2:4
“Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;”JUDE 6
“And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”These angels that sinned, I believe they became known as demons. I believe their children were the Nephilim, but were human, albeit really large violent humans (nephilim means someone who causes others to fall down.) The world became very violent in those days. Then the flood. These angels that sinned, that forsook their proper dwelling place and fathered Nephilim, I believe they became known as demons.
What of these Biblical scriptures Nick?
Quote Hi david,
The hurling down of Satan from his continued accepted place in heaven, along with 1\3 of the angels is only an endtime events as shown in Revelation. Satan had wandered the earth[Job 1-2], where he had assumed squatters ruling rights, till God was ready to deal with him and to his evil agents.Why oh why does Satan have what are called “angels”? Why? If Satan, the “ruler of the demons” has angels… um. Yah,
What do you make of this?: “The sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. . . . The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.” (Genesis 6:2-4)
The Nephilim were the “MEN of fame.” Men. Not spirit creatures.
Quote (david @ June 20 2006,04:07) Quote They are the spirits of progeny of the sons of God[angels \archangels]and their sexual relationships with women. Ok, so what about the angels that forsook their proper dwelling place?
2 PETER 2:4
“Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;”JUDE 6
“And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”These angels that sinned, I believe they became known as demons. I believe their children were the Nephilim, but were human, albeit really large violent humans (nephilim means someone who causes others to fall down.) The world became very violent in those days. Then the flood. These angels that sinned, that forsook their proper dwelling place and fathered Nephilim, I believe they became known as demons.
What of these Biblical scriptures Nick?
Hi david,
No, If they became known as demons scripture would have said that. But it did not so, such is empty speculation.Yes, angels have fallen and some are held under bondage in dark parts of the heavenly realms, such as Tartarus, again shown in Enoch.
Angels are of heaven.
Demons are of earth.A while ago, you said:
Quote Angels are of heaven and are designed to be as servants and messengers of God.
Yes, they are of heaven but “forsook their proper dwelling place,” heaven. They are designed to be servants of God, but some of them “sinned,” the Bible says.Anyway, Heiscoming, I'm wondering if you looked at my reasoning from the scriptures a few pages ago (the 10 points I mentioned) about the belief that God roasts people in unending pain.
Hi david,
God has all sorts of works for angels to do.
They serve him in the heavenlies.
They serve Him by coming to earth to bring messages.
They can be called on to battle on earth and Elijah showed Elisha.
Some princes battle with evil forces as shown in Daniel.
But their home is heaven till cast to the earth in the endtimes.
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