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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,10:54) Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,05:05) Nick, I don't understand much of what you said. Some of it definitely isn't what we believe. Other parts of it….I'm not sure why you'd say. I would point out your mistakes, but there are just too many. When someone is losing in an argument, such as you clearly are with this “hades/hell” discussion, the tactic often employed is to throw as many possible things (often false, or half truths) at the other person that you can and then quickly shut the door.
We are pretty much the exact opposite of Universalism. I would like anyone reading Nick's post above (whatever it meant) to understand that most of what he said I don't understand. If anyone would like to know what we believe about hell, look through this thread.
Hi david,
What argument?Are we not on a mutual search for truth or are you only here to teach the Jehovah's Witness faith?
You have had a few more days to read through these matters, to do further research and study, and to consult with others.
So, as this is your area of expertise can you now expand on these matters for those who are interested as it seems odd that we should have to search for ourselves when you have this knowledge at your fingertips?
Hi david,
I will continue to remind you to look at these matters when you do find time.I'm uncertain as to what you are asking me Nick. If you would like to understand what we believe, please go to http://www.watchtower.org. Is that what you're asking, for our beliefs? I really am not sure what you ask.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,10:54) Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,05:05) Nick, I don't understand much of what you said. Some of it definitely isn't what we believe. Other parts of it….I'm not sure why you'd say. I would point out your mistakes, but there are just too many. When someone is losing in an argument, such as you clearly are with this “hades/hell” discussion, the tactic often employed is to throw as many possible things (often false, or half truths) at the other person that you can and then quickly shut the door.
We are pretty much the exact opposite of Universalism. I would like anyone reading Nick's post above (whatever it meant) to understand that most of what he said I don't understand. If anyone would like to know what we believe about hell, look through this thread.
Hi david,
What argument?Are we not on a mutual search for truth or are you only here to teach the Jehovah's Witness faith?
You have had a few more days to read through these matters, to do further research and study, and to consult with others.
So, as this is your area of expertise can you now expand on these matters for those who are interested as it seems odd that we should have to search for ourselves when you have this knowledge at your fingertips?
Hi all,
david says he does not understand these questions. Is anyone else in the dark about them?Hi Nick
You asked three questions:
–“What argument?”
OK, the discussion we are having where you say that God tortures people and where I say this is unloving and against everything the Bible teaches us about God, Love, and justice.–“Are we not on a mutual search for truth or are you only here to teach the Jehovah's Witness faith?”
Nick, this is how I already answered this question: “Nick, I am primarily here to follow Jesus commands. I am partially here simply out of curiosity.” Nick, I believe we are both here to discuss the Bible. I have always loved truth and have always sought to search it out.–“So, as this is your area of expertise can you now expand on these matters for those who are interested as it seems odd that we should have to search for ourselves when you have this knowledge at your fingertips?”
Nick, here is where I lose you. I think I answered you. I'm not trying to trick you by repeatedly asking you what you mean. From the first time you stated this, I have asked you about it.Quote I will continue to remind you to look at these matters when you do find time.
What exactly do you meant by “these matters”?Hi david,
take your time.By the way wht we do here is debate. We present our arguments but we do not argue.That is futile.
Right. I know. My mistake. Well, sometimes what happens on here does turn into what appears to be arguments, but this is not what anyone wants.
“take my time” on what?
I don't need to take my time. I need to know what you're asking me. I believe I”ve already answered you. If I have missed something, surely it's not too much for you to tell me.
If you do choose to tell me what you're talking about, I won't be able to answer right now. I'll be back tomorrow.david.
I KINGS 2
10 David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 11 The days that David reigned over Israel were forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty-three years reigned he in Jerusalem.I KINGS 11
21 When Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to my own country.I KINGS 11
42 The time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years. 43 Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 14
20 The days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 14
31 Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and his mother's name was Naamah the Ammonitess. Abijam his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 15
8 Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 15
24 Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father; and Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 16
6 Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah; and Elah his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 16
28 So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria; and Ahab his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 22
40 So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his place.I KINGS 22
50 Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father; Jehoram his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 8
24 Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 10
35 Jehu slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria. Jehoahaz his son reigned in his place. 36 The time that Jehu reigned over Israel in Samaria was twenty-eight years.II KINGS 13
9 Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria: and Joash his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 13
13 Joash slept with his fathers; and Jeroboam sat on his throne: and Joash was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel.II KINGS 14
16 Jehoash slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 14
21 All the people of Judah took Azariah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in the room of his father Amaziah. 22 He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers.II KINGS 14
29 Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel; and Zechariah his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 15
7 Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David: and Jotham his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 15
22 Menahem slept with his fathers; and Pekahiah his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 15
38 Jotham slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Ahaz his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 16
20 Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 20
21 Hezekiah slept with his fathers; and Manasseh his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 21
18 Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his place.II KINGS 24
6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers; and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his place.Interesting scriptures borean2005. Here are some more.
The dead are “conscious of nothing at all.” (Ec 9:5, 10; Ps 146:4)
When we sleep, what are we conscious of?
A sleeping person is completely unaware of his surroundings and the things that may be occurring about him. There is no conscious activity. During periods of deep sleep it is very difficult to awaken a person.
So, in the Bible, death is often compared to sleep. A sleeping person can be woken up. A dead person can be brought back to life. A sleeping person is unconscious. So is a dead person. The comparison fits, and is understandable.
Death, whether that of a man or of an animal, is like sleep. (Ps 13:3; Joh 11:11-14; Ac 7:60; 1Co 7:39; 15:51; 1Th 4:13) The psalmist wrote: “From your rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the charioteer and the horse have fallen fast asleep.” (Ps 76:6; compare Isa 43:17.) Were it not for God’s purpose to awaken persons from the sleep of death, they would never wake up.—Compare Job 14:10-15; Jer 51:39, 57
However, “death” and “sleep” may also be contrasted. Concerning a dead girl, Christ Jesus said: “The little girl did not die, but she is sleeping.” (Mt 9:24; Mr 5:39; Lu 8:52) As he was going to resurrect her from death, Jesus may have meant that the girl had not ceased forever to exist but would be as one awakened from her sleep. Also, this girl had not been buried, nor had her body had time to begin decaying, as had the body of Lazarus. (Joh 11:39, 43, 44) On the basis of the authority granted to him by his Father, Jesus could say this just as does his Father, “who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were.”—Ro 4:17; compare Mt 22:32.
It should be noted that the term “asleep” is applied in the Scriptures to those dying because of the death passed on from Adam. Those suffering the “second death” are not spoken of as asleep. Rather, they are shown to be completely annihilated, out of existence, burned up as by an unquenchable fire.—Re 20:14, 15; compare Heb 10:26-31, where a contrast is made between the death of those who violated the Mosaic Law and the much more severe punishment meted out to Christians who turn to a willful practice of sin; Heb 6:4-8.
Hi Heiscoming,
Here is a thread on Hell/hades.
“The Apocalypse of Peter (2nd century C.E.) was the first [apocryphal] Christian work to describe the punishment and tortures of sinners in hell,” states the French Encyclopædia Universalis.
Among the early Church Fathers, however, there was disagreement over hell. Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Cyprian believed that hell was a fiery place. Origen and theologian Gregory of Nyssa thought of hell as a place of separation from God—of spiritual suffering. Augustine of Hippo, on the other hand, held that suffering in hell was both spiritual and sensory—a view that gained acceptance. “By the fifth century the stern doctrine that sinners will have no second chance after this life and that the fire which will devour them will never be extinguished was everywhere paramount,” wrote Professor J.N.D. Kelly.
In the 16th century, such Protestant reformers as Martin Luther and John Calvin understood the fiery torment of hell to be figurative of spending eternity separated from God. However, the idea of hell as a place of torment returned in the following two centuries. Protestant preacher Jonathan Edwards used to strike fear in the hearts of 18th-century Colonial Americans with graphic portrayals of hell.
“God is love,” isn't He?
Heiscoming, some questions I'd like you to ponder:
1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say? (Also Jer 32:35; 19:5)
Jeremiah 7:31 (King James Version)
“And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.”
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible contradict itself?10.–Is not the idea that the soul is immortal contrary to what you personally have observed?
–What happens when a person is knocked unconscious, faints, or is placed under an anesthetic at a hospital?
If his “soul” is really something separate from the body and is able to function intelligently apart from the body, so that even death itself does not affect its existence and its functions, why is it that during such period of unconsciousness the person is completely unaware of all activity around him?
–Why is it that he must be told afterward what happened during that time?
–If his “soul” can see, hear, feel and think after death, as religions generally teach, why does something far less drastic than death, such as a period of unconsciousness, stop all these functions?DAVID
Hi,
David's favourite verse is the one from Jeremiah 7 on this subject.
Of course God does not cast His sons into any fire.
His sons are safe in THE SON. Those who might have previously claimed sonship due to past relationships as sons of Adam or David or Abraham had their claims to eternal sonship quashed by the Son when he partook of flesh and brought God's message to man.He appeals to reason which is a poor substitute for scripture. His reasoning is that if God allowed such things to happen to men then He would be shown to be less merciful that men. He forgets that no man dare judge God, or any reason for whatever He ever does. He gave all men warning through the Son and those warnings remain written before our eyes so that we have no excuse for ignoring them.
The exposition of Hades shown so clearly in Lk 16 has no part in david's faith. He refuses to accept it as literal scripture and will only accept it as allegory.
Hi david,
What about the Body of Christ, the Church?
Is that any different in type to the bosom of Abraham?Hi,
Matt 25.41
“Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire, which has been prepared for the devil and his angels”So until the rebellion of Satan and the revolt of the 1\3 of the angels in heaven there was no lake of fire. The lake of fire was not prepared for man but for them. It is eternal. Is that because angels are eternal?
Quote He appeals to reason which is a poor substitute for scripture. Would you say the same to Paul?
ACTS 17:2-3
“So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he REASONED WITH THEM FROM THE SCRIPTURES, explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to YOU.””Nick, “be reasonable.” (Titus 3:2) God gave us the ability to reason and think.
And if a scripture says that the answer is higher than “x” and we know that “w” is lower than “x” then the answer isn't “w” even though we're not specifically told that the answer isn't “w.”
It's the power of reason and thinking ability. Logic.If we are told that such a thing never came up into Jehovah's heart, how could he have created such a thing? Logic tells us it's impossible.
Anyway, I've had this discussion with you several pages ago. I was asking H what he thought.
Heiscoming?
Quote The exposition of Hades shown so clearly in Lk 16 has no part in david's faith. He refuses to accept it as literal scripture and will only accept it as allegory.
Nick, if it were literal it would conflict with the rest of scripture. While Nick accuses me of rejecting this scripture, I have repeatedly said that he closes his eyes to many other scriptures in order to allow this scripture to fit his beliefs.Where are we told that angels are eternal? And the angels that sinned? They have life eternal? Are will they too find their way to the lake of fire, symbolic of everlasting destruction with no hope of life?
Hi david,
What do you make of Lk 20.35f
“but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age….for neither can they die anymore, for they are like ANGELS, and are sons of God being sons of the resurrection.”??Hi david,
Paul reasoned from the scriptures. The basis of his reasoning was the proven Word of God. He did not reason from logic alone apart from scripture.Quote Hi david,
Paul reasoned from the scriptures. The basis of his reasoning was the proven Word of God. He did not reason from logic alone apart from scripture.And I'm reasoning on Jeremiah 7. That's a scripture isn't it Nick? Yes, it is. I'm using what that SCRIPTURE says to reason. Therefore, I'm reasoning on the scriptures. If that scripture in Jeremiah tells us something specific about Jehovah regarding burning people in fire, then we can reason on the truth of that scripture.
Perhaps, Nick, you've noticed that all the points I've mentioned (accept for #10) have scriptures tied to them. All the points are scripturaly based. And I reason on the scriptures.
So you cannot attempt to say that I am 'reasoning from logic alone apart from scripture.' Don't even attempt to portray that thought. It is untrue.
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