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Hi david,
I understand your anxiety to proscribe eternal damnation now that I know that the JWs do not understand or teach salvation through being reborn into the kingdom of God. If you do not want to be saved then you do not want to know or accept the full results of that rejection.Nick, if you believe that “eternal destruction” is a slow destruction over all eternity where the destruction never actually comes because it is eternal and hence not actually destruction, then I can understand your confusion over other things.
2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
“These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength,Nick, I have tried to be very clear. Yet, you always change what I say.
Being born again is necessary for entering the kingdom, as the scripture actually says.
The scipture doesn't say being born again is necessary for salvation.Being born again involves being baptized in water (“born from water”) and begotten by God’s spirit (“born from . . . spirit”), thus becoming a son of God with the prospect of sharing in the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5) Jesus had this experience, as do the 144,000 who are heirs with him of the heavenly Kingdom.
It is only necessary for those who make up this kingdom (the rulers, not the ruled) to be born again.
I want to discuss this more, but in the appropriate thread.Hi david,
Fine theories but they have no substantiation in scripture. The Son came to offer eternal life. Is there eternal life outside of the Son?
1Jn 5.12f
“He who has the Son has the life; he who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life.These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life….And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life”Quote Fine theories but they have no substantiation in scripture. The Son came to offer eternal life. Is there eternal life outside of the Son?
Of course not. But what you fail to understand is why a person must be born again. You fail to understand God's purpose for the earth and mankind. I dont' remember moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or others under the Law Covenant being born again. I do remember Jesus saying:
LUKE 22:29-30
“and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Not everyone who is a follower of Jesus needs to be a part of the government that will rule over mankind, as kings, priests and judges.Let's continue this in the “born again” thread.
Not everyone
LUKE 22:29
“and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”Hi david,
I understand the foundation of the JW sect is the inability of the original leader to reconcile the concept of 'hell' with the mercy of God and I now know why you spend so much energy attacking this principle. You do apparently believe a small number of very evil individuals will be “annihilated” after the 1000 year reign of Jesus and his 144,000 only JW co-rulers. These had been in heaven with Jesus or alive at their return to earth and then they ruled on earth.So as a sect it is very similar to Universalism which teaches all are saved by the work of Jesus. Almost all are saved and all you have to do to gain further approval and brownie points with God is to do the JW works.
It clearly is a very relaxed approach as it is almost impossible to upset God and sin has no permanent effect. The only advantage of being born again is to be one of the Millenial leaders. All sin is forgiven at death. Jesus is Michael. You have your own bible.Have I missed anything important?
Such a gospel should be extremely popular but is not, perhaps because the commonsense reading of the true bible tells us this is empty folly.
WOW
BIZARRE.
Nick, I don't understand much of what you said. Some of it definitely isn't what we believe. Other parts of it….I'm not sure why you'd say. I would point out your mistakes, but there are just too many.
What I do know is that we are discussing hades/hell.
And I know that “God is love.” And I know that it's not loving by any stretch of the imagination to torture someone for eternity.
I also know what the words “eternal” and “destruction” mean. Put them together, and I still know what they mean. If the punishment is “eternal destruction,” then that must mean that they are forever destroyed with no hope of life. To imagine that it means they are forever being destroyed (but in fact never actually destroyed) and that the act of destroying them is the punishment is quite the bizarre twist of very simple words.
WOW.
Bizarre.
Your whole post above was bizarre. When someone is losing in an argument, such as you clearly are with this “hades/hell” discussion, the tactic often employed is to throw as many possible things (often false, or half truths) at the other person that you can and then quickly shut the door. This is often the case when dealing with people in the ministry. I expect more from you.david.
PS. Most of the things you've mentioned above could fit into other threads. Why post them here?
PPS. We are pretty much the exact opposite of Universalism. I would like anyone reading Nick's post above (whatever it meant) to understand that most of what he said I don't understand. If anyone would like to know what we believe about hell, look through this thread.And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9-11 KJV)9Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, Whoever pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast's] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,
10He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God's indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no respite (no pause, no intermission, no rest, no peace) day or night–these who pay homage to the beast and to his image and whoever receives the stamp of his name upon. (Revelation 14:9-11 Amplified Bible)
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11″And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11 New American Standard Biblle)
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. (Revelations. 14:9-11 New World Translation)Here is a scripture that testifies of those who receive the mark of the beast, and that those who receive the mark being TORMENTED (Strongs # 929 meaning to torture) in the prescence of the holy angels, and the lamb, the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night. I gave you the scripture in several translations including your personal favorite (NWT). This scripture testifies plainly that ther will be people who worship the beast, and that they will be tortured with no rest for ever and ever.
If you really love truth as you prcclaim then this text should not need miles and miles of explanation to explain it, but if you just love your religion then you will explain this away. I am interested in seeing how you will handle this portion of scripture.Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,05:05) Nick, I don't understand much of what you said. Some of it definitely isn't what we believe. Other parts of it….I'm not sure why you'd say. I would point out your mistakes, but there are just too many. What I do know is that we are discussing hades/hell.
And I know that “God is love.” And I know that it's not loving by any stretch of the imagination to torture someone for eternity.
I also know what the words “eternal” and “destruction” mean. Put them together, and I still know what they mean. If the punishment is “eternal destruction,” then that must mean that they are forever destroyed with no hope of life. To imagine that it means they are forever being destroyed (but in fact never actually destroyed) and that the act of destroying them is the punishment is quite the bizarre twist of very simple words.
WOW.
Bizarre.
Your whole post above was bizarre. When someone is losing in an argument, such as you clearly are with this “hades/hell” discussion, the tactic often employed is to throw as many possible things (often false, or half truths) at the other person that you can and then quickly shut the door. This is often the case when dealing with people in the ministry. I expect more from you.david.
PS. Most of the things you've mentioned above could fit into other threads. Why post them here?
PPS. We are pretty much the exact opposite of Universalism. I would like anyone reading Nick's post above (whatever it meant) to understand that most of what he said I don't understand. If anyone would like to know what we believe about hell, look through this thread.
Hi david,
“God is love”
Do we know what the love of God is like?“For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe in him has been judged already, because he has not believed in the only begotten Son of God”
Is the love of God unconditional for all men? No.
Why did God send His Son? To save ALL men from perishing.
Are all men under condemnation? Yes, unless they respond to the gospel.
Why? Because all men are judged and condemned if they do not respond to Christ.
And if they respond and obey the message? “There is now no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus.”
So are all saved? No, only those who believe in the Son of God.
Do all respond to this love? No
So are all saved? No.
So what happens to those who do not respond? They perish.Right, but it is different for God to cause someone to perish (be destroyed) as you say, because they are not deserving of life, and for him to cause someone literal torture for all time.
As for Sultan's comments on Torment, let's first look at the lake of fire:
LAKE OF FIRE
This expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”—Re 20:14; 21:8.
“The lake of fire” into which death, Hades, the symbolic “wild beast” and “the false prophet,” Satan, his demons, and the persistent practicers of wickedness on earth are cast is shown to mean “the second death.” (Re 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8; Mt 25:41)The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 20:14, 20) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. But it will be “brought to nothing.” (1 Cor 15:26) Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire.—Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.
Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning “everlasting destruction,” or the second death.—Re 20:15; 2 Thess 1:9
WHAT HAPPENS TO DEATH? WHAT DOES THIS TELL US?
Isaiah 25:8 tells us the Jehovah will “swallow up death forever.” Revelation 20:14,15 tells us that death will be hurled into the lake of fire. Does this mean that the lake of fire is in Jehovah’s stomach? Well, if taken literally, it would mean that. Or could both of these scriptures mean that death is to be “brought to nothing,” (1 Cor 15:26) and that it “will be no more” as scriptures tells us? (Rev 21:3,4; Compare 2 Tim 1:10)
Since death and hades are hurled into this lake of fire, it is evident that this “lake” is a symbol, because death and hades cannot literally be burned. But they can be done away with, destroyed.
Since we know that death is to be destroyed, (1 Cor 15:26; Rev 21:3,4) what does this tell us about the lake of fire, knowing that death is to be hurled into it? If the result for death when hurled into the lake of fire is that it will be “brought to nothing,” and “be no more,” what happens to the people that are thrown into this lake? The same.TORMENTED?
While the foregoing texts make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire, it has been used by some persons to support belief in a literal place of fire and torment. Revelation 20:10 has been appealed to, because it speaks of the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet as being “tormented day and night forever and ever” in the lake of fire. However, this cannot refer to actual conscious torment. Those thrown into the lake of fire undergo “the second death.” (Re 20:14) In death there is no consciousness and, hence, no feeling of pain or suffering.—Ec 9:5.In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (básanos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., basanismoú].” (Re 18:9, 10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8, 15-17, 19.
Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., basanízo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word basanisteś is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) Thus those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.
The following will somewhat overlap what has just been said. I'm copying and pasting from previous posts I have made:
The Greek word basanizo “TORMENT” in the Bible:
The Greek word basanízo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It basically meant “test by the proving stone [básanos]” and, by extension, “examine or question by applying torture.” Lexicographers point out that in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used with the sense of ‘vexing with grievous pains; being harassed, distressed.’—Mt 8:29; Lu 8:28; Re 12:2.The Bible used basanízo in a number of instances. For example, a manservant afflicted with paralysis was “terribly tormented” (NW) or “racked with pain” (NE) by it. (Mt 8:6; compare 4:24.) Also, Lot “used to torment his soul” (Ro) or “was vexed” (Mo, RS) by the lawless deeds of the people of Sodom. (2Pe 2:8) The word is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat.—Mt 14:24; Mr 6:48.
The Greek noun basanisteś occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) For example: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matthew 18:34, King James Version) Torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although basanízo is not used here), so basanisteś came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999) Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.
Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basanismoú] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night f
or ever and ever.”It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek básanos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.
Some commentators have pointed to Biblical instances of the word “torment” to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, as just indicated, there is Scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not have that sense. In fact, verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.” And though Jesus spoke of a certain rich man as “existing in torments” (Lu 16:23, 28), Jesus was not describing the literal experience of a real person but, rather, was setting forth an illustration. Revelation provides a number of other instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context.—Re 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.
david.
Quote Here is a scripture that testifies of those who receive the mark of the beast, and that those who receive the mark being TORMENTED (Strongs # 929 meaning to torture) in the prescence of the holy angels, and the lamb, the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night. I gave you the scripture in several translations including your personal favorite (NWT). This scripture testifies plainly that ther will be people who worship the beast, and that they will be tortured with no rest for ever and ever.
If you really love truth as you prcclaim then this text should not need miles and miles of explanation to explain it, but if you just love your religion then you will explain this away. I am interested in seeing how you will handle this portion of scripture.
I'm sorry Sultan. I hadn't read the end of your post. I will simplify what I said to a few sentances with plenty of scriptural references that I won't actually quote if you like. It's just I wanted to cover ALL the related scritpures that show what the word torment means in the Bible.
I have to go to work now, but will simplify this for you later if you wish.david.
Hi Sultan. I have more time to address your question now. I will try not to provide 'miles and miles of explanation.' I will shorten my responce to Revelation 14 only and leave Rev 20 out, which my first comment mentioned quite a bit. But I would like to say that if someone believes something, (the trinity for example) and I know of 800 scriptures that show that God is not a trinity, I am going to show that person all 800 scriptures. I am going to explain each of those scriptures, reasoning on them.
So, speaking of Rev 14, you said:Quote “This scripture testifies plainly that ther will be people who worship the beast, and that they will be tortured with no rest for ever and ever.”
Actually Sultan from Revelation 14:9-11 it's not so plain that “they will be tortured….forever.” It actually speaks of some who are “tormented with fire and sulphur . . . And the SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever.” Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the SMOKE—the evidence that the fire has done its work of DESTRUCTION—that continues forever, not the fiery torment. T8 has pointed this out in the “hell” thread.Sultan, as a favor to me, please GO LOOK UP MATTHEW 18:34 IN AS MANY BIBLES AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, ROUGHLY HALF OF THEM WILL HAVE THE WORD “JAILERS” AND HALF WILL HAVE THE WORD “TORMENTORS.” Why? Why? WHY? WHY? Why? Why? That’s a good question. Let me ask it again: Why?
The answer to this question is the answer to your post to me. So please consider it carefully. Why are the words “tormentors” and “jailers” the same?
The English word “torment” as found in dictionary.com and similar dictionaries shows that there is a relationship:
1. Great physical pain or mental anguish.
2. A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain.
3. The TORTURE inflicted ON PRISONERS under interrogation.The Greek word: “Basanizo.” What was it’s meaning? How was this word understood?
The Greek word basanízo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It basically meant “test by the proving stone [básanos]” and, by extension, “examine or question by applying torture.” Lexicographers point out that in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used with the sense of ‘vexing with grievous pains; being harassed, distressed.’—Mt 8:29; Lu 8:28; Re 12:2.
The Bible used basanízo in a number of instances. For example, a manservant afflicted with paralysis was “terribly tormented” (NW) or “racked with pain” (NE) by it. (Mt 8:6; compare 4:24.) Also, Lot “used to torment his soul” (Ro) or “was vexed” (Mo, RS) by the lawless deeds of the people of Sodom. (2Pe 2:8) The word is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat.—Mt 14:24; Mr 6:48.
*So, as I was saying, the Greek noun basanisteś occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) For example: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matthew 18:34, King James Version) TORTURE WAS SOMETIMES USED IN PRISONS to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although basanízo is not used here), SO BASANISTEŚ CAME TO BE APPLIED TO JAILERS.
Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999) Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint.THAT A CONDITION OF RESTRAINT CAN BE SPOKEN OF AS “TORMENT” IS INDICATED BY THE PARALLEL ACCOUNTS AT MATTHEW 8:29 AND LUKE 8:31.
MATTHEW 8:29
“And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?””
LUKE 8:31
“And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss.” (Compare Rev 20:3,7 where the abyss is definitely a prison.)
SO IN THESE PARALLEL ACCOUNTS, WE SEE THAT BEING IN A PRISON WAS ALSO SPOKE OF AS BEING TORMENTED.
Why? What does this mean? What does this tell us?Sultan, I hope considering how the Bible uses the word basinazo helps you in understanding the relationship between the thought of torture and imprisonment.
As well, REVELATION PROVIDES A NUMBER OF OTHER INSTANCES WERE “TORMENT” CLEARLY HAS AN ILLUSTRATIVE OR SYMBOLIC SENSE, AS IS EVIDENT FROM THE CONTEXT.—Re 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.
For example:
BABYLON’S ANNIHILATION IS CALLED A FIERY TORMENT (REV 18:8-10,21) BUT NOTICE VERSE 21. IT IS NOT LITERAL.
In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (básanos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., basanismoú].” (Re 18:9, 10)
What does this mean? As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8,15-17,19Sultan, I hope these scriptures and look at certain words helps your understanding of certain verses.
david.
Hi sultan,
You can be absolutely sure that every scriptural verse associated with this issue, is known, has been examined and reasons why it cannot be true have been formed by Jehovah's witnesses like david. That is because this issue is the basis for the original formation of the sect.Any hope of changing his views by the opening of verses to him may as well be abandoned and clearly he has a mission to spread this false gospel by seductive reason as far as possible among those who are naive in faith.
No only do they teach the absence of punishment but also the forgiveness of all sins at physical death and the leadership, under Christ of only the JW's in the Millenial kingdom.
Prov 7 24f
“Now therefore, my sons, listen to Me and pay attention to the words of My mouth. Do not let your heart turn to her ways, do not stray into her paths for many are the victims she has cast down and numerous are her slain. Her house is the way to Sheol, descending to the chambers of death”Quote Quite so david,
I may have been wrong. You were convinced it is a parable so let's look at it.
First. To whom did he speak in parables?Matt 13.3
” And he spoke many things to THEM in parables..
Matt 13.11
” To YOU it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it has not been granted….Therefore I speak to THEM in parables, because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing THEY do not hear nor do THEY understand”So while we have recorded for ALL to read a lage proportion of the teachings of Jesus ,it is written in parable form only to those who are outside the kingdom and do not have the Spirit to help them. And they are not designed rto be understood by THEM either, rather for THEM to stumble over.
Looking at Lk 16
“Now he was also saying TO THE DISCIPLES'
'There was a rich man..”
Since it is not specified as a parable and since it is spoken to his followers then it is unlikely to be a parable. Do you agree?So, you say you were wrong?
With Luke 16, I have never really been clear what you believe. Every time I think I am clear, it seems to change just slightly.
I would like your ultimate, final complete understanding of Jesus' words at Luke 16 before I respond.
Are you now saying it wasn't a parable at all?
I also think we should look at parables, illustrations, allagory, etc, and the Bible words that were actually used.Quote You can be absolutely sure that every scriptural verse associated with this issue, is known, has been examined and reasons why it cannot be true have been formed by Jehovah's witnesses like david. That is because this issue is the basis for the original formation of the sect.
While your last statement isn't really true, it is true that we don't have a problem answering Biblical questions. You are right that we examine every scripture. Is that wrong Nick? We also examine the meaning of the words used in scripture. If a word such as “torment” is used, it is well to consider what that word was in the original languages and how is it to be understood. English words don't always exactly match up perfectly with Hebrew or Greek counterparts.Sultan, I am waiting for a responce from you. I would like to go a little deeper into these scriptures and examine them more. It is quite interesting to probe deeper.
Quote Any hope of changing his views by the opening of verses to him may as well be abandoned and clearly he has a mission to spread this false gospel by seductive reason as far as possible among those who are naive in faith. Nick, I show what the word means in the Bible, and how it is used in the Bible, and how other scriptures use that word interchangably…inother words, I show all the things that relate to understanding the meaning, and you accuse me of trickery.
Nick, if you want to continue to focus on that word “torment,” and ignore everything else, as you have been doing, I cannot stop you. You will learn nothing more, but you will be happy in your false belief. For those who are not blind to the rest of the Bible, I provide more scriptures that are clearly related and that can cleary give insight.
I have noticed Nick, that when it is quite obvious that you are wrong, your tactic is to attack the person instead of defending your beliefs. This proves nothing. It is a sad approach.
Nick, if you want to have a discussion on that scripture he mentioned, i would be more than happy to.Quote No only do they teach the absence of punishment but also the forgiveness of all sins at physical death and the leadership, under Christ of only the JW's in the Millenial kingdom.
Right, so here is an example of your tactics when you are wrong. You can't even attempt to show I'm wrong, so you throw a whole lot of things out there designed to make my comments less important somehow. And you again misrepresent. Your first comment: wrong. As I've stated 30 or so times now, 1 Thes 2:9, which speaks of the 'punishment of everlasting destruction,' we obviously do believe in punishment. The punishment of destruction for all time, as the scripture clearly says.Sultan, listen to what the Bible says, and not Nick or me.
Prov 7 24f
“Now therefore, my sons, listen to Me and pay attention to the words of My mouth. Do not let your heart turn to her ways, do not stray into her paths for many are the victims she has cast down and numerous are her slain. Her house is the way to Sheol, descending to the chambers of death”When there is one scripture that mentions torment, find every scripture that mentions torment and find how that word is used in the Bible. Find out what the connotations of that word is and how it was used in Bible times.
And Sultan, if I fail to understand something about the word “torment” as used in the scriptures, by all means, let me know.david.
Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,03:15) Quote Quite so david,
I may have been wrong. You were convinced it is a parable so let's look at it.
First. To whom did he speak in parables?Matt 13.3
” And he spoke many things to THEM in parables..
Matt 13.11
” To YOU it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it has not been granted….Therefore I speak to THEM in parables, because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing THEY do not hear nor do THEY understand”So while we have recorded for ALL to read a lage proportion of the teachings of Jesus ,it is written in parable form only to those who are outside the kingdom and do not have the Spirit to help them. And they are not designed rto be understood by THEM either, rather for THEM to stumble over.
Looking at Lk 16
“Now he was also saying TO THE DISCIPLES'
'There was a rich man..”
Since it is not specified as a parable and since it is spoken to his followers then it is unlikely to be a parable. Do you agree?So, you say you were wrong?
With Luke 16, I have never really been clear what you believe. Every time I think I am clear, it seems to change just slightly.
I would like your ultimate, final complete understanding of Jesus' words at Luke 16 before I respond.
Are you now saying it wasn't a parable at all?
I also think we should look at parables, illustrations, allagory, etc, and the Bible words that were actually used.
Hi david,
I learn. Do you?Quote (david @ Dec. 15 2005,05:05) Nick, I don't understand much of what you said. Some of it definitely isn't what we believe. Other parts of it….I'm not sure why you'd say. I would point out your mistakes, but there are just too many. When someone is losing in an argument, such as you clearly are with this “hades/hell” discussion, the tactic often employed is to throw as many possible things (often false, or half truths) at the other person that you can and then quickly shut the door.
We are pretty much the exact opposite of Universalism. I would like anyone reading Nick's post above (whatever it meant) to understand that most of what he said I don't understand. If anyone would like to know what we believe about hell, look through this thread.
Hi david,
What argument?Are we not on a mutual search for truth or are you only here to teach the Jehovah's Witness faith?
You have had a few more days to read through these matters, to do further research and study, and to consult with others.
So, as this is your area of expertise can you now expand on these matters for those who are interested as it seems odd that we should have to search for ourselves when you have this knowledge at your fingertips?
Quote (david @ Dec. 17 2005,03:07) Hi Sultan. I have more time to address your question now. I will try not to provide 'miles and miles of explanation.' I will shorten my responce to Revelation 14 only and leave Rev 20 out, which my first comment mentioned quite a bit. But I would like to say that if someone believes something, (the trinity for example) and I know of 800 scriptures that show that God is not a trinity, I am going to show that person all 800 scriptures. I am going to explain each of those scriptures, reasoning on them.
So, speaking of Rev 14, you said:Quote “This scripture testifies plainly that ther will be people who worship the beast, and that they will be tortured with no rest for ever and ever.”
Actually Sultan from Revelation 14:9-11 it's not so plain that “they will be tortured….forever.” It actually speaks of some who are “tormented with fire and sulphur . . . And the SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever.” Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the SMOKE—the evidence that the fire has done its work of DESTRUCTION—that continues forever, not the fiery torment. T8 has pointed this out in the “hell” thread.Sultan, as a favor to me, please GO LOOK UP MATTHEW 18:34 IN AS MANY BIBLES AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, ROUGHLY HALF OF THEM WILL HAVE THE WORD “JAILERS” AND HALF WILL HAVE THE WORD “TORMENTORS.” Why? Why? WHY? WHY? Why? Why? That’s a good question. Let me ask it again: Why?
The answer to this question is the answer to your post to me. So please consider it carefully. Why are the words “tormentors” and “jailers” the same?
The English word “torment” as found in dictionary.com and similar dictionaries shows that there is a relationship:
1. Great physical pain or mental anguish.
2. A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain.
3. The TORTURE inflicted ON PRISONERS under interrogation.The Greek word: “Basanizo.” What was it’s meaning? How was this word understood?
The Greek word basanízo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It basically meant “test by the proving stone [básanos]” and, by extension, “examine or question by applying torture.” Lexicographers point out that in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used with the sense of ‘vexing with grievous pains; being harassed, distressed.’—Mt 8:29; Lu 8:28; Re 12:2.
The Bible used basanízo in a number of instances. For example, a manservant afflicted with paralysis was “terribly tormented” (NW) or “racked with pain” (NE) by it. (Mt 8:6; compare 4:24.) Also, Lot “used to torment his soul” (Ro) or “was vexed” (Mo, RS) by the lawless deeds of the people of Sodom. (2Pe 2:8) The word is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat.—Mt 14:24; Mr 6:48.
*So, as I was saying, the Greek noun basanisteś occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) For example: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matthew 18:34, King James Version) TORTURE WAS SOMETIMES USED IN PRISONS to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although basanízo is not used here), SO BASANISTEŚ CAME TO BE APPLIED TO JAILERS.
Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999) Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint.THAT A CONDITION OF RESTRAINT CAN BE SPOKEN OF AS “TORMENT” IS INDICATED BY THE PARALLEL ACCOUNTS AT MATTHEW 8:29 AND LUKE 8:31.
MATTHEW 8:29
“And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?””
LUKE 8:31
“And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss.” (Compare Rev 20:3,7 where the abyss is definitely a prison.)
SO IN THESE PARALLEL ACCOUNTS, WE SEE THAT BEING IN A PRISON WAS ALSO SPOKE OF AS BEING TORMENTED.
Why? What does this mean? What does this tell us?Sultan, I hope considering how the Bible uses the word basinazo helps you in understanding the relationship between the thought of torture and imprisonment.
As well, REVELATION PROVIDES A NUMBER OF OTHER INSTANCES WERE “TORMENT” CLEARLY HAS AN ILLUSTRATIVE OR SYMBOLIC SENSE, AS IS EVIDENT FROM THE CONTEXT.—Re 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.
For example:
BABYLON’S ANNIHILATION IS CALLED A FIERY TORMENT (REV 18:8-10,21) BUT NOTICE VERSE 21. IT IS NOT LITERAL.
In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (básanos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., basanismoú].” (Re 18:9, 10)
What does this mean? As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8,15-17,19Sultan, I hope these scriptures and look at certain words helps your understanding of certain verses.
david.
David,
It's funny how you only quote part of the verse. THe text says,”And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” They have no rest day or night. Also David another error in your doctrine is the kind of body that these people will have when they are ressurected. Please read 1 cor 15:35-48.35.But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another st
ar in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.All who are resurected will have spiritual bodies. Iif I start with a pre-conceived idea I can prove it too. I can give you over 100 scriptures that prove the Trinity. The problem is I have to leave out the rest that disprove it. That's what you do. You quote peices of scripture, but you leave out the rest. I hope that instead of trying defend your false beliefs you will join the rest of us in trying to learn the truth from the Bible.
Hi sultan,
I am sure the most difficult obstacle the JW's meet when witnessing is the false trinity doctrine. But beyond that barrier their next faith attack on the naive has to be “eternal punishment”. If they can establish a base here then it is relatively easy for them to sell any other doctrines.Quote Hi david,
I learn. Do you?
Yes, I am learning all the time. This forum has been a great help–and you in particular Nick. Thankyou. It has helped me to learn how other people think and reason. It has helped my Bible study by forcing me to look deeper into certain subjects. I too have been wrong Nick. But I'm wondering what you meant when you said you were wrong. And I'm wondering what you now presently believe with regard to Luke 16.Quote Hi david,
What argument?Are we not on a mutual search for truth or are you only here to teach the Jehovah's Witness faith?
You have had a few more days to read through these matters, to do further research and study, and to consult with others.
So, as this is your area of expertise can you now expand on these matters for those who are interested as it seems odd that we should have to search for ourselves when you have this knowledge at your fingertips?
Nick, I am primarily here to follow Jesus commands. I am partially here simply out of curiosity.
Nick, I have never consulted with others on anything on this forum, and I have been rather busy lately. I apologize for most of my responces. I wish I could spend more time on here and use more scriptures and organize my thoughts better. It is true that I have researched all these subjects before. I've formed files on some of them. And I do have lots of information at my fingertips. That is true.
Oh, I'm sorry. I think I misread your last paragraph. Are you referring to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses? I had thought you were referring to the things found in the hades/hell thread. If you are asking me about our beliefs, perhaps the JW thread. If this is the hades/hell thread, then by all means, let us discuss Luke 16 if you have changed your thoughts on it again. I am genuinely interested to know why you believe in regard to this scripture.Quote Hi sultan,
I am sure the most difficult obstacle the JW's meet when witnessing is the false trinity doctrine. But beyond that barrier their next faith attack on the naive has to be “eternal punishment”. If they can establish a base here then it is relatively easy for them to sell any other doctrines.
Nick, there are many many obstacles we meet in the field ministry. Just yesterday I was speaking with a chinese man, (Yow jin?) who said that he had been told that we don't believe in Jesus. (Obviously a lie.) It is a common wrong belief, which I have heard often, perhaps because we use God's name so much. There is the immortal soul, trinity, hellfire, the idea that all good people go to heaven, the idea of a future paradise earth, holidays such as Christmas, etc, etc. I would say those are the main issues we are called on. But there are many more.
As far as “eternal punishement” which we should perhaps call, as the Bible does: the punishment of “everlasting destruction,” this doesn't seem to be one of the main things we deal with. What is distinctive about this particular belief of eternal punishment is the slander that it brings upon Jehovah's name.Quote David,
It's funny how you only quote part of the verse. THe text says,”And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” They have no rest day or night. Also David another error in your doctrine is the kind of body that these people will have when they are ressurected. Please read 1 cor 15:35-48.35.But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.All who are resurected will have spiritual bodies. Iif I start with a pre-conceived idea I can prove it too. I can give you over 100 scriptures that prove the Trinity. The problem is I have to leave out the rest that disprove it. That's what you do. You quote peices of scripture, but you leave out the rest. I hope that instead of trying defend your false beliefs you will join the rest of us in trying to learn the truth from the Bible.
Hi Sultan. I would really like to look closer at this use of the word “torment.” I will discuss the resurrection with you, but I must be off in moment and do not have time right now. You didn't really respond to my comments, other than to say that I only quoted part of that verse.
Let's look at the whole scripture.
REVELATION 14:9-11
“And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou´] ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”OK, first off, as stated earlier, you said:
Quote “This scripture testifies plainly that ther will be people who worship the beast, and that they will be tortured with no rest for ever and ever.”
As I've said before, it isn't the torment that lasts forever and ever, but “this scripture testifies plainly that” the SMOKE of their torment ascends forever. T8 has pointed this out as well. A lot of people misquote this scripture as saying that the torment is forever. That is not what it says. The evidence, (as T8 pointed out) of the torment will last forever. (I'm really wishing T8 would speak on this subject as I have never had an administrator really agree with me before.)
Sultan, I can't help but notice you really had no responce to the use of the word “torment” in the Bible, and in Bible times. I'm wondering what you think of those scriptures.
It is noteworthy and quite interesting that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘PROPHETS THAT TORMENT THOSE DWELLING ON THE EARTH.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim.
At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten.David.
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