Hades/hell

[Karen-Arkansas]

What is the differents between Hades and Hell? And, did Jesus vist Hell after he died on the cross?

[berean2005]

Hi,

THE FOUR WORDS TRANSLATED 'HELL'

Sheol: This is the Old Testament word which means the 'Grave' or 'The Pit'. The Hebrew word Sheol (translated into the Greek word Hades) signifies the state or abode of the dead. Sheol is used 65 times in the Old Testament Scriptures. In the King James Version it is translated 'Grave' 31 times, 'Hell' 31 times, and 'Pit' 3 times.

Hades: In the New Testament, the Greek word 'Hades' is used instead of the word Sheol. It has the exact same meaning as the word Sheol.
The Hebrew Old Testament, some 300 years before the Christian era, was translated into Greek, but of the 64 instances where Sheol occurs in the Hebrew, it is rendered Hades in the Greek 60 times, so that either word is the equivalent of the other. Hades is used 11 times in the New Testament. In the King James Translation, it is translated 'Hell' 10 times, and 'Grave' 1 time.

Gehenna: The Greek word “Gehenna”, often translated “hell”, comes from the Hebrew “Ghi-Hinnom”, the name of the valley to the south of Jerusalem where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh offered their sons to the Molech. In the days of Jesus, it had become the city's burning garbage dump, where garbage, sewage, dead animals, and dead criminals were cast in and consumed. Gehenna is used 12 Times in the New Testament, 11 of which are used by Jesus. It is translated 'Hell' all 12 Times in the King James Version.

Tartarus: Used only once in the Bible, is the Greek fabled place of punishment in the lower world. It is used by Peter in 2 Peter 2:4, to describe the place where the Angels who sinned are kept in 'pits of darkness' awaiting judgement. Translated 'Hell' in the King James Translation.

Hell: The word 'Hell' is actually not found anywhere in the Bible. It is a word the translators used in place of all four words above. The word hell comes from an Old Norse verb “to hide”. The word hell derives from the Old English helan, to conceal or cover. It literally means any place, or some place covered over. In Norse mythology, which predates Christianity, Hel was the goddess of death and the underworld.

As you can see, the word 'hell' is not found anyplace in Scripture. It is a word the translators used to replace all four words above. Why was this? That's a good question to ask. Perhaps a 'biased' towards the pagan Roman Church doctrine of eternal torture?

HELL — PURGATORY — LIMBO

The three 'invented places' of Rome.

In Jesus,

Berean2005

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Can you show me that Hades means “exactly” the same as Sheol in scripture as you say? Would you say the Pit is the same too? What part of us is it that sleeps when we die the first death in your view?

[Anonymous]

Example 1:

(Acts 2:27)  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Gk. word HADES], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The same Greek word is used in verse 31.

These verses are quoting (Psa 16:10)  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Heb. word SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hence the equivalent Greek word for SHEOL is HADES
And it is used that way throughout the NT

Example 2:

(1 Cor 15:55)  O death, where is thy sting? O grave [Gk word HADES], where is thy victory?

Paul is alluding to (Hosea 13:14)  I will ransom them from the power of the grave [Heb. SHEOL]; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave [Heb. SHEOL], I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Again, the Greek word HADES is being used as the equivalent to the Hebrew word SHEOL.

Hope this helps …
Adam Pastor

[berean2005]

Thank you, Adam.

In Jesus,

Berean2005

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ June 30 2005,08:23)

Example 1: (Acts 2:27)  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Gk. word HADES], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. The same Greek word is used in verse 31. These verses are quoting (Psa 16:10)  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Heb. word SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Hence the equivalent Greek word for SHEOL is HADES And it is used that way throughout the NT Example 2: (1 Cor 15:55)  O death, where is thy sting? O grave [Gk word HADES], where is thy victory? Paul is alluding to (Hosea 13:14)  I will ransom them from the power of the grave [Heb. SHEOL]; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave [Heb. SHEOL], I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Again, the Greek word HADES is being used as the equivalent to the Hebrew word SHEOL. Hope this helps … Adam Pastor

Hi Adam P,
Certainly such parallels are suggestive but not conclusive proof.
It does not exclude Hades as being part of a whole called Sheol.
Often, as you know, one scripture is more detailed in meaning than another.

For example you can compare verses in Matthew, Mark or Luke reporting the same things spoken by Jesus but one may remember and record greater detail than another without contradiction occurring.

[NickHassan]

Hi ruko,
Here is another forum on hell.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The “hell” thrown into the lake of fire is only “hades”-the remand waiting place used for sinners and shown in Lk 16.It was not able to overcome the church established by Yeshua. Since all who were waiting in it had been emptied out it had no further use and thrown into the Lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death and remains.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Here are some studies on Hell.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
In Lk 16 Jesus revealed Hades to be a remand centre, holding cells for criminals awaiting judgement and sentence. He showed that it was part of Sheol and the other part, the bosom of Abraham, was visible from there and communication is possible between the two sides but there is a chasm that none can cross between the two parts and none can communicate with the living from there. Hades is shown to be a place of torment and suffering but the greater suffering would be the helplessness and the awaiting of the inevitable. Our time now is so short to find safety in the Son. He said the gates of Hades would “not overpower”the church in Mt 16.
Of course after judgement the remand centre will no longer be required so as rev 20.14 shows it will be discarded into the Lake of Fire.

[david]

Hades is the common transliteration into English of the corresponding Greek word hai´des. It perhaps means “the unseen place.” In all, the word “Hades” occurs ten times in the earliest manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures.—Mt 11:23; 16:18; Lu 10:15; 16:23; Ac 2:27, 31; Re 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (from Genesis to Malachi) uses the word “Hades” 73 times, employing it 60 times to translate the Hebrew word she´ohl´, commonly rendered “Sheol.” Luke, the divinely inspired writer of Acts, definitely showed Hades to be the Greek equivalent of Sheol when he translated Peter’s quotation from Psalm 16:10. (Ac 2:27) Inversely, nine modern Hebrew translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures use the word “Sheol” to translate Hades at Revelation 20:13, 14; and the Syriac translation uses the related word Shiul.

In all but two cases in which the word Hades is used in the Greek Scriptures it is related to death, either in the verse itself or in the immediate context; the two other instances are discussed in the following paragraph.* Hades does not refer to a single grave (Gr., ta´phos), or to a single tomb (Gr., mne´ma), or to a single memorial tomb (Gr., mne·mei´on), but to the common grave of mankind, where the dead and buried ones are unseen. It thus signifies the same as the corresponding word “Sheol,” and an examination of its use in all its ten occurrences bears out this fact.

*In its first occurrence, at Matthew 11:23, Jesus Christ, in chiding Capernaum for its disbelief, uses Hades to represent the depth of debasement to which Capernaum would come down, in contrast with the height of heaven to which she assumed to exalt herself. A corresponding text is found at Luke 10:15. Note the similar way in which Sheol is used at Job 11:7, 8.

Jesus and Congregation Delivered. Concerning the Christian congregation, Jesus said, at Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of Hades [“powers of death,” RS] will not overpower it.” Similarly, King Hezekiah, when on the verge of death, said: “In the midst of my days I will go into the gates of Sheol.” (Isa 38:10) It, therefore, becomes apparent that Jesus’ promise of victory over Hades means that its “gates” will open to release the dead by means of a resurrection, even as was the case with Christ Jesus himself.

Since Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, a place rather than a condition, Jesus entered within “the gates of Hades” when buried by Joseph of Arimathea. On Pentecost of 33 C.E., Peter said of Christ: “Neither was he forsaken in Hades nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.” (Ac 2:25-27, 29-32; Ps 16:10) Whereas “the gates of Hades” (Mt 16:18) were still holding David within their domain in Peter’s day (Ac 2:29), they had swung open for Christ Jesus when his Father resurrected him out of Hades. Thereafter, through the power of the resurrection given him (Joh 5:21-30), Jesus is the Holder of “the keys of death and of Hades.”—Re 1:17, 18.

Illustrative Use. At Revelation 6:8 Hades is figuratively pictured as closely following after the rider of the pale horse, personalized Death, to receive the victims of the death-dealing agencies of war, famine, plagues, and wild beasts.

The sea (which at times serves as a watery grave for some) is mentioned in addition to Hades (the common earthen grave), for the purpose of stressing the inclusiveness of all such dead ones when Revelation 20:13, 14 says that the sea, death, and Hades are to give up or be emptied of the dead in them. Thereafter, death and Hades (but not the sea) are cast into “the lake of fire,” “the second death.” They thereby figuratively ‘die out’ of existence, and this signifies the end of Hades (Sheol), the common grave of mankind, as well as of death inherited through Adam.

The remaining text in which Hades is used is found at Luke 16:22-26 in the account of “the rich man” and “Lazarus.” The language throughout the account is plainly parabolic and cannot be construed literally in view of all the preceding texts. Note, however, that “the rich man” of the parable is spoken of as being “buried” in Hades, giving further evidence that Hades means the common grave of mankind.

[david]

(She´ol).

The common grave of mankind, gravedom; not an individual burial place or grave (Heb., qe´ver, Jg 16:31; qevu·rah´, Ge 35:20), nor an individual tomb (Heb., ga·dhish´, Job 21:32).

While several derivations for the Hebrew word she´ohl´ have been offered, apparently it is derived from the Hebrew verb sha·´al´, meaning “ask; request.” Regarding Sheol, in A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Samuel Pike stated that it is “the common receptacle or region of the dead; so called from the insatiability of the grave, which is as it were always asking or craving more.” (Cambridge, 1811, p. 148) This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction, as it receives the dead of mankind within it.—Ge 37:35, ftn; Pr 30:15, 16.

The Hebrew word she´ohl´ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.” In addition, at Isaiah 7:11 the Hebrew text originally read she´ohl´, and it was rendered as “Hades” in the ancient Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion, and as “hell” in the Douay Version.—See NW ftn.

There is no English word that conveys the precise sense of the Hebrew word she´ohl´. Commenting on the use of the word “hell” in Bible translation, Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says: “Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.” More recent versions transliterate the word into English as “Sheol.”—RS, AT, NW.

Regarding Sheol, the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276) noted: “Sheol was located somewhere ‘under’ the earth. . . . The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentiles—all slept together without awareness of one another.”

While the Greek teaching of the immortality of the human soul infiltrated Jewish religious thinking in later centuries, the Bible record shows that Sheol refers to mankind’s common grave as a place where there is no consciousness. (Ec 9:4-6, 10) Those in Sheol neither praise God nor mention him. (Ps 6:4, 5; Isa 38:17-19) Yet it cannot be said that it simply represents ‘a condition of being separated from God,’ since the Scriptures render such a teaching untenable by showing that Sheol is “in front of” him, and that God is in effect “there.” (Pr 15:11; Ps 139:7, 8; Am 9:1, 2) For this reason Job, longing to be relieved of his suffering, prayed that he might go to Sheol and later be remembered by Jehovah and be called out from Sheol.—Job 14:12-15.

Throughout the inspired Scriptures, Sheol is continually associated with death and not life. (1Sa 2:6; 2Sa 22:6; Ps 18:4, 5; 49:7-10, 14, 15; 88:2-6; 89:48; Isa 28:15-18; also compare Ps 116:3, 7-10 with 2Co 4:13, 14.) It is spoken of as “the land of darkness” (Job 10:21) and a place of silence. (Ps 115:17) Abel apparently was the first one to go to Sheol, and since then countless millions of human dead have joined him in the dust of the ground.

On the day of Pentecost 33 C.E., the apostle Peter quoted from Psalm 16:10 and applied it to Christ Jesus. Luke, in quoting Peter’s words, used the Greek word hai´des, thereby showing that Sheol and Hades refer to the same thing, mankind’s common grave. (Ac 2:25-27, 29-32) During the Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ, Sheol, or Hades, is emptied and destroyed, through a resurrection of all of those in it.—Re 20:13, 14; see GRAVE; HADES; HELL.

Jonah and Sheol. In the account about Jonah, it is stated that “Jonah prayed to Jehovah his God from the inward parts of the fish and said: ‘Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help. You heard my voice.’” (Jon 2:1, 2) Therefore, Jonah was comparing the inside of the fish to Sheol. He was as good as dead inside the fish, but Jehovah brought up his life from the pit, or Sheol, by preserving him alive and having him disgorged.—Jon 2:6; compare Ps 30:3.

Jesus compared Jonah’s being in the belly of the fish with what would happen in his own case, saying: “For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40) Although Jesus did not here use the word “Sheol” (Hades), the apostle Peter did use the word “Hades” when referring to Jesus’ death and resurrection.—Ac 2:27.

Regarding the word “Sheol,” Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida noted: “The word occurs often in the Psalms and in the book of Job to refer to the place to which all dead people go. It is represented as a dark place, in which there is no activity worthy of the name. There are no moral distinctions there, so ‘hell’ (KJV) is not a suitable translation, since that suggests a contrast with ‘heaven’ as the dwelling-place of the righteous after death. In a sense, ‘the grave’ in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together. . . . The use of this particular imagery may have been considered suitable here [in Jonah 2:2] in view of Jonah’s imprisonment in the interior of the fish.”—A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978, p. 37.

[david]

(Ge·hen´na) [Gr. form of the Heb. Geh Hin·nom´, “Valley of Hinnom”].

This name appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and whereas many translators take the liberty to render it by the word “hell,” a number of modern translations transliterate the word from the Greek ge´en·na.—Mt 5:22, Ro, Mo, ED, NW, BC (Spanish), NC (Spanish), also the footnotes of Da and RS.

The deep, narrow Valley of Hinnom, later known by this Greek name, lay to the S and SW of ancient Jerusalem and is the modern-day Wadi er-Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom). (Jos 15:8; 18:16; Jer 19:2, 6) Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh engaged in idolatrous worship there, which included the making of human sacrifices by fire to Baal. (2Ch 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6; Jer 7:31, 32; 32:35) Later, to prevent such activities there in the future, faithful King Josiah had the place of idolatrous worship polluted, particularly the section called Topheth.—2Ki 23:10.

No Symbol of Everlasting Torment.
Jesus Christ associated fire with Gehenna (Mt 5:22; 18:9; Mr 9:47, 48), as did the disciple James, the only Biblical writer besides Matthew, Mark, and Luke to use the word. (Jas 3:6) Some commentators endeavor to link such fiery characteristic of Gehenna with the burning of human sacrifices that was carried on prior to Josiah’s reign and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment. However, since Jehovah God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that God’s Son, in discussing divine judgment, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna. It may be noted that God prophetically decreed that the Valley of Hinnom would serve as a place for mass disposal of dead bodies rather than for the torture of live victims. (Jer 7:32, 33; 19:2, 6, 7, 10, 11) Thus, at Jeremiah 31:40 the reference to “the low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes” is generally accepted as designating the Valley of Hinnom, and a gate known as “the Gate of the Ash-heaps” evidently opened out onto the eastern extremity of the valley at its juncture with the ravine of the Kidron. (Ne 3:13, 14) It seems obvious that such “carcasses” and “fatty ashes” are not related to the human sacrifices made there under Ahaz and Manasseh, since any bodies so offered would doubtless be viewed by the idolaters as “sacred” and would not be left lying in the valley.

Therefore, the Biblical evidence concerning Gehenna generally parallels the traditional view presented by rabbinic and other sources. That view is that the Valley of Hinnom was used as a place for the disposal of waste matter from the city of Jerusalem. (At Mt 5:30 Ph renders ge´en·na as “rubbish heap.”) Concerning “Gehinnom,” the Jewish commentator David Kimhi (1160-1235?), in his comment on Psalm 27:13, gives the following historical information: “And it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.”

Symbolic of Complete Destruction.
It is evident that Jesus used Gehenna as representative of utter destruction resulting from adverse judgment by God, hence with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible. (Mt 10:28; Lu 12:4, 5) The scribes and Pharisees as a wicked class were denounced as ‘subjects for Gehenna.’ (Mt 23:13-15, 33) To avoid such destruction, Jesus’ followers were to get rid of anything causing spiritual stumbling, the ‘cutting off of a hand or foot’ and the ‘tearing out of an eye’ figuratively representing their deadening of these body members with reference to sin.—Mt 18:9; Mr 9:43-47; Col 3:5; compare Mt 5:27-30.

Jesus also apparently alluded to Isaiah 66:24 in describing Gehenna as a place “where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mr 9:47, 48) That the symbolic picture here is not one of torture but, rather, of complete destruction is evident from the fact that the Isaiah text dealt, not with persons who were alive, but with “the carcasses of the men that were transgressing” against God. If, as the available evidence indicates, the Valley of Hinnom was a place for the disposal of garbage and carcasses, fire, perhaps increased in intensity by the addition of sulfur (compare Isa 30:33), would be the only suitable means to eliminate such refuse. Where the fire did not reach, worms, or maggots, would breed, consuming anything not destroyed by the fire. On this basis, Jesus’ words would mean that the destructive effect of God’s adverse judgment would not cease until complete destruction was attained.

Figurative Use.
The disciple James’ use of the word “Gehenna” shows that an unruly tongue is itself a world of unrighteousness and that one’s whole round of living can be affected by fiery words that defile the speaker’s body. The tongue of such a one, “full of death-dealing poison” and so giving evidence of a bad heart condition, can cause the user to be sentenced by God to go to the symbolic Gehenna.—Jas 3:6, 8; compare Mt 12:37; Ps 5:9; 140:3; Ro 3:13.

The Biblical use of Gehenna as a symbol corresponds to that of “the lake of fire” in the book of Revelation.—Re 20:14, 15

[david]

LAKE OF FIRE
This expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”—Re 20:14; 21:8.

The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 20:14, 20) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire.—Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.

Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death.—Re 20:15.

While the foregoing texts make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire, it has been used by some persons to support belief in a literal place of fire and torment. Revelation 20:10 has been appealed to, because it speaks of the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet as being “tormented day and night forever and ever” in the lake of fire. However, this cannot refer to actual conscious torment. Those thrown into the lake of fire undergo “the second death.” (Re 20:14) In death there is no consciousness and, hence, no feeling of pain or suffering.—Ec 9:5.

In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (ba´sa·nos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., ba·sa·ni·smou´].” (Re 18:9, 10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8, 15-17, 19.

Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., ba·sa·ni´zo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word ba·sa·ni·stes´ is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) Thus those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.

[david]

TORMENT
The Greek word ba·sa·ni´zo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It basically meant “test by the proving stone [ba´sa·nos]” and, by extension, “examine or question by applying torture.” Lexicographers point out that in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used with the sense of ‘vexing with grievous pains; being harassed, distressed.’—Mt 8:29; Lu 8:28; Re 12:2.

The Bible used ba·sa·ni´zo in a number of instances. For example, a manservant afflicted with paralysis was “terribly tormented” (NW) or “racked with pain” (NE) by it. (Mt 8:6; compare 4:24.) Also, Lot “used to torment his soul” (Ro) or “was vexed” (Mo, RS) by the lawless deeds of the people of Sodom. (2Pe 2:8) The word is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat.—Mt 14:24; Mr 6:48.

The Greek noun ba·sa·ni·stes´ occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) Torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although ba·sa·ni´zo is not used here), so ba·sa·ni·stes´ came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999) Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.

Some commentators have pointed to Biblical instances of the word “torment” to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, as just indicated, there is Scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not have that sense. In fact, verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.” And though Jesus spoke of a certain rich man as “existing in torments” (Lu 16:23, 28), Jesus was not describing the literal experience of a real person but, rather, was setting forth an illustration. Revelation provides a number of other instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context.—Re 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.

[david]

Nick, the above are the answers to any questions you might ask me. I may have missed one or two things, so I'll just add the following about “Hell”:

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.
NICK, I still would like to see a more explanitory definition of “soul” from you. I know you can't just define it as “vessel” and leave it at that, based on the hundreds of scriptures that refer to it as PERSON, OR ANIMAL or THE LIFE of a person or animal.

WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE GO TO THE BIBLE HELL?

Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl´ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai´des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge´en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai´des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai´des it uses that same translation for ge´en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge´en·na as “hell,” as it does hai´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou´] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

As already discussed in a post above, what is the ‘torment’ to which
these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba´sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?

Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”

If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there.
Does that sound reasonable to you?
If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith?
But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

david.
Ok, I'm done now. The answers to any questions may be found in the last couple pages. I've tried to organize it clearly.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2005,14:56)

Hades is the common transliteration into English of the corresponding Greek word hai´des. It perhaps means “the unseen place.” In all, the word “Hades” occurs ten times in the earliest manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures.—Mt 11:23; 16:18; Lu 10:15; 16:23; Ac 2:27, 31; Re 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (from Genesis to Malachi) uses the word “Hades” 73 times, employing it 60 times to translate the Hebrew word she´ohl´, commonly rendered “Sheol.” Luke, the divinely inspired writer of Acts, definitely showed Hades to be the Greek equivalent of Sheol when he translated Peter’s quotation from Psalm 16:10. (Ac 2:27) Inversely, nine modern Hebrew translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures use the word “Sheol” to translate Hades at Revelation 20:13, 14; and the Syriac translation uses the related word Shiul. In all but two cases in which the word Hades is used in the Greek Scriptures it is related to death, either in the verse itself or in the immediate context; the two other instances are discussed in the following paragraph.* Hades does not refer to a single grave (Gr., ta´phos), or to a single tomb (Gr., mne´ma), or to a single memorial tomb (Gr., mne·mei´on), but to the common grave of mankind, where the dead and buried ones are unseen. It thus signifies the same as the corresponding word “Sheol,” and an examination of its use in all its ten occurrences bears out this fact. *In its first occurrence, at Matthew 11:23, Jesus Christ, in chiding Capernaum for its disbelief, uses Hades to represent the depth of debasement to which Capernaum would come down, in contrast with the height of heaven to which she assumed to exalt herself. A corresponding text is found at Luke 10:15. Note the similar way in which Sheol is used at Job 11:7, 8. Jesus and Congregation Delivered. Concerning the Christian congregation, Jesus said, at Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of Hades [“powers of death,” RS] will not overpower it.” Similarly, King Hezekiah, when on the verge of death, said: “In the midst of my days I will go into the gates of Sheol.” (Isa 38:10) It, therefore, becomes apparent that Jesus’ promise of victory over Hades means that its “gates” will open to release the dead by means of a resurrection, even as was the case with Christ Jesus himself. Since Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, a place rather than a condition, Jesus entered within “the gates of Hades” when buried by Joseph of Arimathea. On Pentecost of 33 C.E., Peter said of Christ: “Neither was he forsaken in Hades nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.” (Ac 2:25-27, 29-32; Ps 16:10) Whereas “the gates of Hades” (Mt 16:18) were still holding David within their domain in Peter’s day (Ac 2:29), they had swung open for Christ Jesus when his Father resurrected him out of Hades. Thereafter, through the power of the resurrection given him (Joh 5:21-30), Jesus is the Holder of “the keys of death and of Hades.”—Re 1:17, 18. Illustrative Use. At Revelation 6:8 Hades is figuratively pictured as closely following after the rider of the pale horse, personalized Death, to receive the victims of the death-dealing agencies of war, famine, plagues, and wild beasts. The sea (which at times serves as a watery grave for some) is mentioned in addition to Hades (the common earthen grave), for the purpose of stressing the inclusiveness of all such dead ones when Revelation 20:13, 14 says that the sea, death, and Hades are to give up or be emptied of the dead in them. Thereafter, death and Hades (but not the sea) are cast into “the lake of fire,” “the second death.” They thereby figuratively ‘die out’ of existence, and this signifies the end of Hades (Sheol), the common grave of mankind, as well as of death inherited through Adam. The remaining text in which Hades is used is found at Luke 16:22-26 in the account of “the rich man” and “Lazarus.” The language throughout the account is plainly parabolic and cannot be construed literally in view of all the preceding texts. Note, however, that “the rich man” of the parable is spoken of as being “buried” in Hades, giving further evidence that Hades means the common grave of mankind.

Hi david,
Rev 20.14
” then DEATH and HADES
were thrown in the Lake of fire”
Scripture does not waste words.
You say “hades” means “death” and yet they are differentiated here. Why?

Just because Sheol is used in one verse and Hades at another also does not prove the words are interchangeable. Hades is part of Sheol and so some verses are more specific than others without changing the meaning.

Again you refuse to accept the teaching of Jesus Christ on Hades in Lk 16. Why?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2005,14:59)

(She´ol). The common grave of mankind, gravedom; not an individual burial place or grave (Heb., qe´ver, Jg 16:31; qevu·rah´, Ge 35:20), nor an individual tomb (Heb., ga·dhish´, Job 21:32). While several derivations for the Hebrew word she´ohl´ have been offered, apparently it is derived from the Hebrew verb sha·´al´, meaning “ask; request.” Regarding Sheol, in A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Samuel Pike stated that it is “the common receptacle or region of the dead; so called from the insatiability of the grave, which is as it were always asking or craving more.” (Cambridge, 1811, p. 148) This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction, as it receives the dead of mankind within it.—Ge 37:35, ftn; Pr 30:15, 16. The Hebrew word she´ohl´ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.” In addition, at Isaiah 7:11 the Hebrew text originally read she´ohl´, and it was rendered as “Hades” in the ancient Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion, and as “hell” in the Douay Version.—See NW ftn. There is no English word that conveys the precise sense of the Hebrew word she´ohl´. Commenting on the use of the word “hell” in Bible translation, Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says: “Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.” More recent versions transliterate the word into English as “Sheol.”—RS, AT, NW. Regarding Sheol, the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276) noted: “Sheol was located somewhere ‘under’ the earth. . . . The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentiles—all slept together without awareness of one another.” While the Greek teaching of the immortality of the human soul infiltrated Jewish religious thinking in later centuries, the Bible record shows that Sheol refers to mankind’s common grave as a place where there is no consciousness. (Ec 9:4-6, 10) Those in Sheol neither praise God nor mention him. (Ps 6:4, 5; Isa 38:17-19) Yet it cannot be said that it simply represents ‘a condition of being separated from God,’ since the Scriptures render such a teaching untenable by showing that Sheol is “in front of” him, and that God is in effect “there.” (Pr 15:11; Ps 139:7, 8; Am 9:1, 2) For this reason Job, longing to be relieved of his suffering, prayed that he might go to Sheol and later be remembered by Jehovah and be called out from Sheol.—Job 14:12-15. Throughout the inspired Scriptures, Sheol is continually associated with death and not life. (1Sa 2:6; 2Sa 22:6; Ps 18:4, 5; 49:7-10, 14, 15; 88:2-6; 89:48; Isa 28:15-18; also compare Ps 116:3, 7-10 with 2Co 4:13, 14.) It is spoken of as “the land of darkness” (Job 10:21) and a place of silence. (Ps 115:17) Abel apparently was the first one to go to Sheol, and since then countless millions of human dead have joined him in the dust of the ground. On the day of Pentecost 33 C.E., the apostle Peter quoted from Psalm 16:10 and applied it to Christ Jesus. Luke, in quoting Peter’s words, used the Greek word hai´des, thereby showing that Sheol and Hades refer to the same thing, mankind’s common grave. (Ac 2:25-27, 29-32) During the Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ, Sheol, or Hades, is emptied and destroyed, through a resurrection of all of those in it.—Re 20:13, 14; see GRAVE; HADES; HELL. Jonah and Sheol. In the account about Jonah, it is stated that “Jonah prayed to Jehovah his God from the inward parts of the fish and said: ‘Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help. You heard my voice.’” (Jon 2:1, 2) Therefore, Jonah was comparing the inside of the fish to Sheol. He was as good as dead inside the fish, but Jehovah brought up his life from the pit, or Sheol, by preserving him alive and having him disgorged.—Jon 2:6; compare Ps 30:3. Jesus compared Jonah’s being in the belly of the fish with what would happen in his own case, saying: “For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40) Although Jesus did not here use the word “Sheol” (Hades), the apostle Peter did use the word “Hades” when referring to Jesus’ death and resurrection.—Ac 2:27. Regarding the word “Sheol,” Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida noted: “The word occurs often in the Psalms and in the book of Job to refer to the place to which all dead people go. It is represented as a dark place, in which there is no activity worthy of the name. There are no moral distinctions there, so ‘hell’ (KJV) is not a suitable translation, since that suggests a contrast with ‘heaven’ as the dwelling-place of the righteous after death. In a sense, ‘the grave’ in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together. . . . The use of this particular imagery may have been considered suitable here [in Jonah 2:2] in view of Jonah’s imprisonment in the interior of the fish.”—A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978, p. 37.

Hi david,
Is Abel silent in Sheol?
Enoch is very interesting on this subject.
Gen 3.10
“He said'The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground..'”
Hebrews 12.24
” and to Jesus , the mediator of a new covenant , and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel”

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2005,15:15)

TORMENT The Greek word ba·sa·ni´zo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It basically meant “test by the proving stone [ba´sa·nos]” and, by extension, “examine or question by applying torture.” Lexicographers point out that in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used with the sense of ‘vexing with grievous pains; being harassed, distressed.’—Mt 8:29; Lu 8:28; Re 12:2. The Bible used ba·sa·ni´zo in a number of instances. For example, a manservant afflicted with paralysis was “terribly tormented” (NW) or “racked with pain” (NE) by it. (Mt 8:6; compare 4:24.) Also, Lot “used to torment his soul” (Ro) or “was vexed” (Mo, RS) by the lawless deeds of the people of Sodom. (2Pe 2:8) The word is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat.—Mt 14:24; Mr 6:48. The Greek noun ba·sa·ni·stes´ occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) Torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although ba·sa·ni´zo is not used here), so ba·sa·ni·stes´ came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999) Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31. Some commentators have pointed to Biblical instances of the word “torment” to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, as just indicated, there is Scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not have that sense. In fact, verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.” And though Jesus spoke of a certain rich man as “existing in torments” (Lu 16:23, 28),  Jesus was not describing the literal experience of a real person but, rather, was setting forth an illustration. Revelation provides a number of other instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context.—Re 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.

Hi david,
You go to great lengths to say that word CAN have a certain meaning and then propound as truth that it MUST have such a meaning in a context you choose. Hmmm.

Do we understand the second death? Should we assume it is exactly like the death we understand a little about, the first?

The beast and the false prohet were in the Lake of fire 1000 years after being thrown in according to scripture. Does that in itself not say we are dealing with an entirely different concept here?

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Do angels die?Surely they are created to live and serve God in eternity. Only physical beings die.

Matt 25 41f
” Then he will also say to those on his left
'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepered for the devil and his angels..'
..These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”

[Author]

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