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Why would you honestly accuse Jesus of sin it doesn't make any sense. God did declare him not guilty.
Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 07 2007,19:39) Why would you honestly accuse Jesus of sin it doesn't make any sense. God did declare him not guilty.
You are using a circular argument. You are trying to prove New Testament with New Testament.Jesus said nothing would pass from the Torah until heaven and earth passed away. Yet he did things that violated the Torah. Even your bible says violation of the Law (Torah) is a sin. Therefore logic dictates that if Jesus violated Torah, and violation of Torah is sin, Jesus sinned.
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 07 2007,19:02) Hi Towshab: You can accuse Jesus of sin all that you want, but since God has declared him not Guilty. You'll have take up that issue with him.
Quote 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared F1 to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: [/quote]
I think you fail to recognize that I do not believe the Christian bible is inspired of G-d. Therefore, listing verse from it will not provide sufficient evidence of your claim.
Quote And as far as your accusation of other Christians, it may be true of some but not all, and again you are not the judge, but the Word of God states: Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Praise God for all that He has done for me through His Son and His Christ, Jesus.
Here's a challenge for you: provide for me Jesus' plan of salvation using only verses from the Synoptic gospels.Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 07 2007,21:16) I would like to add that the Ten Commandments are part of The Torah. 
Yes ACC they are, but only part and not all.Misquoting again! This time it was only Matthew though and not Jesus.
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
==============================Is this what it says? Check out the KJV and Apostles (LXX)
==============================
Isa 53:4 [KJV] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.Isa 53:4 [Apostles] He bears our sins, and is pained for us; yet we accounted Him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction.
==============================Well I see either ‘griefs’ and ‘sorrows or ‘sins’ and ‘pain’ but not a word about ‘infirmities’ and ‘sicknesses’.
Many people saw but again no one recorded.
Mat 8:34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.
Jesus had just cast out the two demons and made them go into a herd of swine. The swine drowned in the sea. Seems he didn’t like the Gentiles not being kosher! Anyway the whole city came out to chase Jesus off (they liked their pork). Yet no one outside of the Christian bible recorded this. I guess the whole city was full of illiterate swine herders.
Jesus says many will not need him at all.
==============================
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
==============================Compare this too
==============================
Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Jer 51:10 The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.
Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Psa 58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
Psa 68:3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
Pro 21:12 The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 9:1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
==============================Hey, and it seems that even when Jesus was about to come people were still being righteous
==============================
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
==============================So Jesus only came for the sinners not the righteous. Yet we all sin. But wait Luke 1:6 says that Zacharias and Elisabeth were righteous. Does that mean that Jesus was merely one of many that never sinned? And look at all of this talk of righteousness before Jesus came? What of that? Seems there are several ways then not just the ‘Jesus’ way.
More silence.
Mat 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
Mat 9:26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.And yet still no record of him outside of the Christian bible. Seems to be of small town local fame. Didn't even make the 3rd page of the obituaries.
The 12 Apostles and then some.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
==============================So let’s figure out who the Apostles were in each of the gospels.
Matthew & Mark: Simon Peter, Andrew, James Z., John Z., Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Lebbaeus (Thaddaeus), Simon the Cannaanite, Judas Iscariot
Luke & Acts: The same as Matthew and Mark except Lebbaeus (Thaddaeus) was replaced by Judas the brother or son of James (Luke can’t decide which might have been a really close family if you catch my drift).
So Luke replaces Thaddaeus with Judas brother (or son) of James. Is this Judas in Luke the son of James or the brother of James?
==============================
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?Jesus wants them to be like satan?
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?”
==============================Since Christianity views the serpent as satan, it seems Jesus wants his apostles to deceive people with trickery! At least we know where Paul gets his craftiness from.
The family feud? Not in the messianic age!
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
==============================Since John the Baptist was supposed to be Elijah and was to prepare the way for Jesus, this is what was supposed to be the result
==============================
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
==============================Jesus says he will not do this but the very opposite will occur!
You know all I read of the end times messianic age is that it will be a time of peace and prosperity where all will know G-d. Yet Jesus is saying that his ministry will cause strife and families to turn upon one another. Just another reason he couldn’t have been the Moshiach. So if Jesus was to cause all of this family strife I know where I’d look to: YHVH G-d not Jesus.
==============================
Mic 7:6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
Mic 7:7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
==============================It seems Jesus did fulfill some prophecies but they weren’t the good ones. Are you sure that the morning star in Is 14:12 and Rev 22:16 aren’t the same?!?
Was John supposed to be the real Messiah? Jesus said John is even greater than himself!
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
==============================Was Mary not a woman? Well then Jesus is saying that John is greater than he! In any case it seems that Jesus is a poor prophet.
==============================
Mat 11:14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.
==============================Since John had just sent his disciples in the first part of Mat 11 while he was in prison and John was later beheaded, how can John be ‘Elijah who is to come’? Shouldn’t that be ‘Elijah who came and is now about to be executed’? Even so, what did John the Baptist say of himself?
==============================
Joh 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
Joh 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
==============================Its quite obvious that John the Baptist denied being Elijah. So who’s lying here?
This is a very interesting quote and quite out of place in Jesus’ ministry. It is a quote taken from the LXX (or at least the LXX was ‘corrected’ to reflect it)
==============================
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
==============================Now consider that this verse is during Jesus’ ministry before the cross. What did Jesus say of his earthly pre-death ministry?
==============================
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Two times in Matthew Jesus makes it quite clear he is here for the children of Israel only. Yet Mat 12:18 says differently. Which is it Jesus?
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
What a family guy!
==============================
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
==============================No wonder Jesus said he was going to turn family member against family member. Seems like he couldn’t even keep peace in his own family! His family didn’t disown him, he disowned his family! You know Jesus that is why you’re days weren’t prolonged, you didn’t honor your father and mother.
esus didn’t spend enough time with the rabbis!
==============================
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: 'Hearing you shall hear and by no means understand, and seeing you shall see and by no means perceive.
Mat 13:15 For the heart of this people has become dull, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes have closed, lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn back, that I should heal them.'
==============================First of all, the quote is from Is 6:9-10. Secondly it is not a prophecy but a command to Isaiah the prophet to go before G-d’s people because of their hardened hearts. But Jesus left off the good part that tells how long he was to speak to the people.
==============================
Isa 6:11 Then I {Isaiah} said, “How long, O Lord?” And he said: “Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste,
Isa 6:12 and the LORD removes people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
==============================Seems Jesus only ‘prophesied’ until the time of his own death and not until the things happened in Is 6:11-12.
Prophecy or just borrowing a quote to make it look good?
==============================
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
==============================This comes from Ps 78:2
==============================
Psa 78:2 [Apostles] I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter dark sayings which have been from the beginning.
==============================I used the LXX because Matthew, good Jew that he was, couldn’t read a lick of Hebrew. That and it was closer to Mat 13:35.
Problem. Psalms are songs they are not prophecy! Ps 78 certainly isn’t. But look at what is being said here: Matthew says ‘secret’, Psalm 78:2 says ‘dark’. Are they the same? Let’s look at more of Ps 78 for the context.
==============================
Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter dark sayings which have been from the beginning.
Psa 78:3 All which we have heard and known, and our fathers have declared to us.
Psa 78:4 They were not hid from their children to a second generation; the fathers declaring the praises of the Lord, and His mighty acts, and His wonders which He has done.
Psa 78:5 And He raised up a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which He commanded our fathers, to make it known to their children;
Psa 78:6 that another generation might know, even the sons which should be born; and they should arise and declare them to their children.
Psa 78:7 That they might set their hope on God, and not forget the works of God, but diligently seek His commandments.
==============================If we compare Ps 78 with Mat 13:35 then Matthew is saying that Jesus is not saying anything new. In fact it appears that these things have been passed on since then so Jesus is not really revealing anything that the people shouldn’t know already.
In any case Ps 78 is about the writer who is about to reveal many things to the readers. It is no prophecy.
That’s what happens when you let Matthew dabble in the Jewish scriptures.
Hi Towshab:
Quote Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, F43 and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Praise My God, My Father, and the Father of My Lord Jesus, God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ
Here's a good one that tells us that again Matthew was either a poor Jew or a good one (deliberately making mistakes so learned Jews would reject his book).
Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel,
Jeremiah? Are you certain Matthew?
Zec 11:12 Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.
Seems it was Zechariah not Jeremiah. So again Matthew was either an unlearned Hebrew, a purposely misleading one, or a Gentile who didn't have modern bible software
Towshab makes a valid points..
I know the New testament is rifle with errors and mistranslation..So is the Torah and or Tanakh or Talmud as some people call it the Old testament.
But it does not bother me in either case.There are plenty of errors and mistranslation in both..
Its a tip for tat sort of thing.
However..What I do know for sure everything created was created by some Creator..And we did not get here by chance.
And if anyone wants to know the errors and mistranslation in the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud..I have plenty for ya..
Know wonder the New testament has them..Poor Matthew..
Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 09 2007,03:27) Towshab makes a valid points.. I know the New testament is rifle with errors and mistranslation..So is the Torah and or Tanakh or Talmud as some people call it the Old testament.
But it does not bother me in either case.There are plenty of errors and mistranslation in both..
Its a tip for tat sort of thing.
However..What I do know for sure everything created was created by some Creator..And we did not get here by chance.
And if anyone wants to know the errors and mistranslation in the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud..I have plenty for ya..
Know wonder the New testament has them..Poor Matthew..
Unisage Whether Tow makes a good point or not, but He does not believe that Jesus came in the flesh, and the Bible teaches me, that whoever believed not that Jesus came in the flesh is Anti-Christ. So what do you say about that?
Also it was not the original Author Mathew made the error's, I belief the translator's did. So no poor Matthew, poor translators.Peace and Love Mrs.
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