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Important stuff I didn't mention above and should have, that when we celebrate YHWH's appointd times, we “come out of Babylon!! We remember He is the Creator, we remember the Israel of old, and how even after He rescued them from Eqypt, they fell back into pagen worship.
Remembering this we see with the crystal clear glasses of the Spirit that we are to worship the living El, the Way He commanded. We “see” that Y'shua is His representative, ordained from before creation, to be our Mediator. We see the perfect marraige unit in them, and just how mighty is our Elohim. His will, will be one, not our own. He will bend us untill be break if necessary. We are all accountable under the Torah which is Justus and the only Truth we have in this crazy world. Messiah represents His Word, to the letter, by the Set-apart Spirit that.
We were given the Messiah as a living example. We are to follow the Way in which He lived, to our death. We are to take responsibility for our sin, repent, and sin no more. Y'shua upheld Torah for love of His Father in heaven. We should do likewise.
Laurel
Let’s get back to the highly suspect gospel of Matthew. I had already gone past this section but no matter I can return.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
According to Matthew Jesus was born in Bethlehem. However an angel warned Joseph to flee into Egypt because Herod was going to kill all of the children under 2 years old in Bethlehem and the surrounding area. Many scholars say it was likely Bethlehem and a few surrounding communities so the child would have been safe in Jerusalem. Why mention Jerusalem? Because Luke does!
Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luk 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
Luk 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.Luk 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
Matthew records the killing of babies by Herod, Luke does not. That is OK but therein lies a problem. In Matthew Jesus and family had to escape from Bethlehem into Egypt. If they had traveled to Jerusalem like Luke says Jesus would have been safe but there is no mention of a trip to Jerusalem. So Matthew has Jesus going from Bethlehem to Egypt and staying there until Herod the Great died and then coming to live in Nazareth. Luke has Jesus going from Bethlehem to Jerusalem and then to Nazareth. That brings us to another discrepancy.
Mat 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.Luk 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
According to Matthew, Jesus and family only came to live in Nazareth because they would not come into Judea because of the reign of Herod Archelaus. Yet Luke does not say this but rather that Mary and Joseph were residents of Nazareth before Jesus was born. So Matthew does not support the idea that Joseph and Mary were residents of Nazareth until after their return while Luke says they were residents before Jesus’ birth.
Finally along these lines the date of birth for Jesus between Matthew and Luke is in conflict. Matthew has Jesus being born while Herod the Great was in power. His reign ended in 4 BC so according to Matthew Jesus was born anywhere from 6-4 BC. Luke has Jesus being born during the census of Quirinius (Luke 2:1) which occurred around 6-7 AD. So between Matthew and Luke, there is 10-13 year difference in birthdate. Looking into the next clue in Luke, Jesus is thirty years old (Luke 3:23) during the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1) or 29 AD. That would make Jesus’ birthdate around 1 BC. Therefore there are conflicts even inside of Luke’s own gospel but both dates conflict with Matthew’s. Since it seems Luke and Matthew were going by oral tradition and did not have accurate records they weren’t careful when they made up when and where Jesus was born. Too bad Luke and Matthew did not have cell phones or email so they could get their stories together!
Ummm, could it be that the magi did not come to visit until some time after the circumcision? Certainly there is nothing in the Matthew narrative to indicate that the Magi came (and Herod's awareness of Yeshua and subsequent mandate to execute) within the 8 day time frame between the birth and circumcission.
You're clutching at straws a bit here Towshab.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 02 2007,23:09) Ummm, could it be that the magi did not come to visit until some time after the circumcision? Certainly there is nothing in the Matthew narrative to indicate that the Magi came (and Herod's awareness of Yeshua and subsequent mandate to execute) within the 8 day time frame between the birth and circumcission. You're clutching at straws a bit here Towshab.
What does that have to do with anything? Where did I say anything about the magi coming to visit in a certain time? How can I be clutching at straws when I didn't even mention anything about that? But I'm glad you mentioned it because I see another conflict.===============================
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
===============================In Luke there is no room in the inn because they have come to Bethlehem from Nazareth because of the tax. So in Luke we have the famous manger scene. Yet in Matthew we have them in a house which seems to indicate that Joseph and Mary were residents of Bethlehem.
===============================
Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,Mat 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
===============================So this is more indication that Matthew forces two issues: he must make Jesus a resident of Bethlehem to match up with Micah 5:2 but Luke says that he is really a resident of Nazareth and that Joseph and Mary have travelled to Bethlehem for the tax.
After going to Jerusalem Luke has them returning to their hometown in Nazareth. But not Matthew! He never has them going to Jerusalem but instead fleeing to Egypt and then trying to come ack tp their hometown in Bethlehem but fearing because of the new ruler and thne taking up residence in Nazareth just so he can be called 'the Nazarene'. So Matthew has to force another supposed prophecy.
To sum the Matthew-Luke conflicts
* Matthew – Mary and Joseph residents of Bethlehem, Jesus born there, must flee to Egypt, try to return but instead take up new residence in Nazareth.
* Luke – Mary and Joseph residents of Nazareth, must travel to Bethlehem for tax, Jesus born in a barn or cave (not a house like in Matthew because they don't live there), go to Jerusalem for purification, return to hometown of Nazareth. No mention of Egypt whatsoever.
Just a sidebar but what doofus would have someone who was that pregnant make the 100 mile journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem?
Seems my straws won't take up liquid 'cause their full of holes.
Towshab Did you ever have a Conversation and a story is being told, and by the time it gets around to you things have been added. So it goes with Humans, nothing unusual about that. So there are a few things here and there, but the main substance is what counts. To go on with this is ridiculous.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 03 2007,10:13) Towshab Did you ever have a Conversation and a story is being told, and by the time it gets around to you things have been added. So it goes with Humans, nothing unusual about that. So there are a few things here and there, but the main substance is what counts. To go on with this is ridiculous.
With this you admit that Matthew got his information from others at best and not from the lips of Jesus himself. So if the birth story is not a total piece of fiction it is recreated from stories passed around. They call things like this either 'legends' or 'myths'.It is quite obvious from the many conflicts between gospel accounts and dates of authorship that none of the gospels were written by eye-witnesses.
Towshab I admit nothing. Goodbye. Brothers and Sisters you need to stop answering this Guy, He is Antichrist. He does not belief that Christ came in the flesh.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,02:31) Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 03 2007,10:13) Towshab Did you ever have a Conversation and a story is being told, and by the time it gets around to you things have been added. So it goes with Humans, nothing unusual about that. So there are a few things here and there, but the main substance is what counts. To go on with this is ridiculous.
With this you admit that Matthew got his information from others at best and not from the lips of Jesus himself. So if the birth story is not a total piece of fiction it is recreated from stories passed around. They call things like this either 'legends' or 'myths'.It is quite obvious from the many conflicts between gospel accounts and dates of authorship that none of the gospels were written by eye-witnesses.
Let me help you out Tow. Jesus died on a stake and not a cross!
Does that mean He didn't die?
Was there an eye witness at Creation?
I'm with YOU MRS but the sad truth their are those who are giving him an ear otherwise he wouldn't have come here.
Perhaps there are weeds in the garden.
But you are right we should not even be talking to him rather we should be shaking the dust from our feet.
And let those who fall~FALL~!
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 03 2007,11:25) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,02:31) Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 03 2007,10:13) Towshab Did you ever have a Conversation and a story is being told, and by the time it gets around to you things have been added. So it goes with Humans, nothing unusual about that. So there are a few things here and there, but the main substance is what counts. To go on with this is ridiculous.
With this you admit that Matthew got his information from others at best and not from the lips of Jesus himself. So if the birth story is not a total piece of fiction it is recreated from stories passed around. They call things like this either 'legends' or 'myths'.It is quite obvious from the many conflicts between gospel accounts and dates of authorship that none of the gospels were written by eye-witnesses.
Let me help you out Tow. Jesus died on a stake and not a cross! Does that mean He didn't die?
If Jesus did live and he did some of the things shown in the gospels he likely did die. The Romans did not take people claiming to be the Jewish messiah lightly. They knew that if such a person got a big enough following they would cause civil unrest.
Quote Was there an eye witness at Creation?
There you go with that erroneous line of reasoning again. Jesus was supposed to have taught and fed 5000 people at one time with a few loaves and some fish. A person who could gather this kind of attention would have merited attention outside of the Christian bible.1 man then a woman = 2 people at creation. That versus over 5000 people. There were secular historians at the time while there were none present at the creation.
Quote I'm with YOU MRS but the sad truth their are those who are giving him an ear otherwise he wouldn't have come here. You are one of those people. You asked that I continue.
Quote Perhaps there are weeds in the garden. But you are right we should not even be talking to him rather we should be shaking the dust from our feet.
And let those who fall~FALL~!
I notice you keep participating. Peaking you interest?DECLARE HIS WORKS TO ALL NATIONS
I will sing O' Most High, praises to thy name, with my whole heart!
And proclaim Thy wonders great, I will rejoice and exalt in Thee!
My foes fall at Thy sight, for Thou has maintained my cause and my cry;
God will judge from His Throne, He will remain forever more.God will rule uprightly, judge the world in righteousness.
Thee oppressed who seek Him, He will to to them a refuge be.
For the Lord will not forget those who put their trust and confidence in Him.
To the Lord sing His praises, declare His works to all nation!God Most High in Zion dwells, He will not forget His people;
They declare His great works, and He will not forget their cry.
Rise O Lord! Put them all in fear, All the nations that forgot that Thou art God.
Judge them, Lord, in Thy sight; let the nations know they are but men.The Lord Eternal Reigns!
“The Lord Eternal reigns! Let us rejoice!
Let all the multitudes of earth be glad!
Dark clouds surround Him and fire burns His foes;
Like wax the mountains melt at His return.“His lightnings bare the earth; Men see and shake!
His high authority heavens proclaim!
All those who idols serve shall be ashamed.
Judah rejoices and Zion is glad!“Our God is far above all other gods!
He is exalted above all the earth!
He will preserve His saints; those who love Him.
Rejoice you righteous and give thanks to God!”The manuscript AqTaylor renders the divine name by the Tetragrammaton written in ancient Hebrew characters at 97:1, 5, 9, 10, 12.
These fragments of the Greek text of the version of Aquila were published by C. Taylor in his work Hebrew-Greek Cairo Genizah Palimpsests, Cambridge, 1900, pp. 54-65. These fragments were dated after the middle of the fifth century C.E., but not later than the beginning of the sixth century C.E.Why do you turn our Father into an impersonal God by neglecting his name?
Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2007,15:54) The manuscript AqTaylor renders the divine name by the Tetragrammaton written in ancient Hebrew characters at 97:1, 5, 9, 10, 12.
These fragments of the Greek text of the version of Aquila were published by C. Taylor in his work Hebrew-Greek Cairo Genizah Palimpsests, Cambridge, 1900, pp. 54-65. These fragments were dated after the middle of the fifth century C.E., but not later than the beginning of the sixth century C.E.Why do you turn our Father into an impersonal God by neglecting his name?
There you with that 'accusation' again. I quite often use YHVH in my posts but I suppose that is not enough for you. Here:YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH
YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH
YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH
YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH
YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH
YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH
YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVH YHVHHappy now?
You don't like that I'm revealing the conflicts in you bible so you choose to falsely accuse me of something. shame this won't sway me.
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 28 2007,15:31) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2007,14:01) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 28 2007,13:42) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 28 2007,12:32) Towshab and I have been going at it “behind the scenes”. He knows I am desirous of learning the Tanach — particularly the Torah — but he also know that while I'm “teetering” that I still hold a special place in my heart for Yeshua.
I hope and pray that as I mature as a christian I NEVER get to a stage where I would make a statement like this. Instead I hope that Yeshua becomes increasingly significant to me in my life, to the point where I, like Paul, might make statements like this:“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” (Philippians 1:21)
Amen to this brother Isaiah. How can anyone who is born again and therefore, has the Spirit of God dwelling within who testifies to the truth of His Son and His Christ ever want to quit serving him after all the suffering that he went through in our behalf.God Bless
Might he come to realise that none of it is actually true, that to be a good person does not require mental slavery of this kind, and that a just god could only judge favourably those who followed the golden rule genuinely, even if they did not have much time for the details of scripture?Stuart
Hi Stu:Yes, every man will be judged according to his works, but not there is no mental salvery in the body of Christ. The reality is that although I am striving to live by the Golden rule, I make mistakes, but because of what God has done for me in the person of Jesus his Son and His Christ, I know that I am not condemned when I make as mistake. All I have to do is aknowledge that I made a mistake asking for forgiveness, and try to learn from my mistake.
Quote Mt 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.Quote Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,11:30) Yes, every man will be judged according to his works, but not there is no mental salvery in the body of Christ. The reality is that although I am striving to live by the Golden rule, I make mistakes, but because of what God has done for me in the person of Jesus his Son and His Christ, I know that I am not condemned when I make as mistake. All I have to do is aknowledge that I made a mistake asking for forgiveness, and try to learn from my mistake.
Hi 942767You must be quite relieved that the OT god has seen the error of his ways and in the NT no longer has people murdered for making mistakes.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:17) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,11:30) Yes, every man will be judged according to his works, but not there is no mental salvery in the body of Christ. The reality is that although I am striving to live by the Golden rule, I make mistakes, but because of what God has done for me in the person of Jesus his Son and His Christ, I know that I am not condemned when I make as mistake. All I have to do is aknowledge that I made a mistake asking for forgiveness, and try to learn from my mistake.
Hi 942767You must be quite relieved that the OT god has seen the error of his ways and in the NT no longer has people murdered for making mistakes.
Stuart
Hi Stu:I am relieved that I have a personal relationship with God through what He has done for me in the person of His Son and His Christ. I am relieved that I know Him as the Father of my spirit and to know that he loves me in spite of all of my mistakes. He loves you too in spite of all that you have spoken against Him and waiting for you to come to Him with a repentant heart.
Perhaps Towshab can help you to understand Him and His actions in the OT.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,12:58) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:17) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,11:30) Yes, every man will be judged according to his works, but not there is no mental salvery in the body of Christ. The reality is that although I am striving to live by the Golden rule, I make mistakes, but because of what God has done for me in the person of Jesus his Son and His Christ, I know that I am not condemned when I make as mistake. All I have to do is aknowledge that I made a mistake asking for forgiveness, and try to learn from my mistake.
Hi 942767You must be quite relieved that the OT god has seen the error of his ways and in the NT no longer has people murdered for making mistakes.
Stuart
Hi Stu:I am relieved that I have a personal relationship with God through what He has done for me in the person of His Son and His Christ. I am relieved that I know Him as the Father of my spirit and to know that he loves me in spite of all of my mistakes. He loves you too in spite of all that you have spoken against Him and waiting for you to come to Him with a repentant heart.
Perhaps Towshab can help you to understand Him and His actions in the OT.
God Bless
You have ambitions to be a bishop of some kind. Presumably your bishees will occasionally ask probing questions. How do you account for the massive difference between the deities described in the two halves of your holy book?Does god still smite but is is not mentioned, or is he a reformed character?
Stuart
Stu For your information God indeed will punish all nations again of all the wrong doing. Give it time. Rev. is the Book to study to see what I am saying. I do not go into a long conversation, I let you do the study on it.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 04 2007,19:32) Stu For your information God indeed will punish all nations again of all the wrong doing. Give it time. Rev. is the Book to study to see what I am saying. I do not go into a long conversation, I let you do the study on it. Peace and Love Mrs.
Blessed are those who have not seen but still believe!Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 04 2007,23:09) Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 04 2007,19:32) Stu For your information God indeed will punish all nations again of all the wrong doing. Give it time. Rev. is the Book to study to see what I am saying. I do not go into a long conversation, I let you do the study on it. Peace and Love Mrs.
Blessed are those who have not seen but still believe!
Ken I want Him to study not just blindly belief! Prove all things
1 Thes.5:21Prase and Love Mrs.
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