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Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 28 2007,03:06) Scholars say the Gospel of Matthew was targeted towards Jews. But if a Jewish person knows his Bible, Matthew crumbles. This thread will focus on the many mistakes made in Matthew. The very first mistake made in Matthew is the opening verse:
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Matthew tries to show the lineage of Jesus to prove his claim as the Messiah, but there are several problems.
Jesus is supposed to be born of a virgin, so Joseph had no role in Jesus' birth. The promised Messiah was to be of the seed of David and Solomon, and there was no seed if Joseph was not the father.
While we are still in the genealogy presented by Matthew, we will see the next error Matthew makes. This post uses the Apostles Bible because it uses the Septuagint and makes very good name retention between 'old' and 'new testaments'. I know Christians like to say that the Christian writers used the Septuagint.
Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
Not only can Jesus not be Messiah because of his virgin birth (no true seed of David), now we see that David was of a cursed bloodline.
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Jer 22:28 Jeconiah is dishonored as a good for nothing vessel; for he is thrown out and cast forth into a land which he knew not.
Jer 22:29 O earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord!
Jer 22:30 Write this man down as childless; for by no means shall his seed ever grow up to sit on the throne of David, or be as a prince yet in Judah.
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We can know this is the same Jeconiah because of this verse that matches with the lineage given in Matthew
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1Ch 3:17 And the sons of Jeconiah were Assir, Shealtiel his son,Neh 12:1 Now these are the priests and the Levites that went up with Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and Jeshua: Seraiah, Jeremiah, Ezra,
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The next error in Matthew's genealogy is his creative manipulation of lineage to make three generational periods of 14 each. 14 is supposed to be symbolic of kingship. Two problems with this – the last set of generations he lists are 13, not 14. The other problem is that he had to leave out some people to come up with 14 in the second section.
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Mat 1:8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah.
Mat 1:9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah.1Ch 3:11 Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son,
1Ch 3:12 Amaziah his son, Azariah {Uzziah} his son, Jotham his son,
1Ch 3:13 Ahaz his son, Hezekiah his son, Manasseh his son,Mat 1:11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the captivity in Babylon.
1Ch 3:15 And the sons of Josiah were Johanan the firstborn, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum.
1Ch 3:16 And the sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, and Zedekiah his son.
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Matthew has to skip 4 people in the lineage of David to come up with his second set of 14.That is all for the first post on the multitude of problems with Matthew that will keep informed Jews from believing in Jesus as the Messiah.
It can be shown that Joseph is the real Father of the Messiah..I dont know if you knew this or not..Alot of Christians dont even know about it.But I will even state this.If Mary was truly the “Mother” Of God..That will make her a Goddess.Now that would put the trinity as false.Why? Instead of three in the Godhead there would be 4 because of Mary being a Goddess.The Godhead is a piece of fiction that was added in to prove the trinity doctrine.But what they didnt catch they made Mary a Goddess..
So in conclusion in order to make that happen they would have to make Jesus as there God and or ManGod..In this case the Bible had tobe re-written inorder to make that happen. history has proven that also as errors and mistranslation.This is why there is such a mass confusion.Just by taking the Verses by Matthew and Luke and from the Torah it can be shown that Joseph is the true Father of the Messiah..Not the other way around as taught by Christianity.
Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 12 2007,02:36) Quote (david @ Oct. 28 2007,07:45) Hashem: in Judaism, a substitute word used when referring to God in contexts other than prayers or scriptural readings, because the name for God is considered too holy for such use. Did those who wrote the Bible consider God's name “too holy” for use?
Are we not told countless times to praise God's name?
Why is it in there (the Hebrew scriptures) close to 7000 times?
So now you admit that the bible has Errors and has been tampered with?Even if they did change the names..What still can be proven that Jesus is still not the correct name.
How so? In the Old Testament the Messiah name was foretold as Joshua but why do people call him Jesus in the New Testament?
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)
But yet continue in the New Testament we find the errors of the name still given..I guess Matthew is not sure either.
Isaiah 7:14
14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.Matthew 1:23
23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.Matthew 1:25
25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.Matthew 1:21
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Unisage, I think you misunderstood what I was saying.Towshab (and others) substitute the title “hasham” for the name of God because they follow the idea that God's name is too holy.
So, my questions were:
Quote Are we not told countless times to praise God's name? Why is it in there (the Hebrew scriptures) close to 7000 times?
Nowhere in those questions did I imply the Bible is full of errors or has been tampered with.
The name “Jesus” (or Yeshua [Or “Yehashua”]) orrurs about a thousand times in the Bible. God's name occurs about 7000 times.
Many people remove that name and put “LORD” or “GOD.” This is wrong.
How did Peter meet Jesus?
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Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Mat 4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.
Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
Mat 4:22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.
================================================Here we have Matthew saying that Jesus saw Peter and Andrew fishing and called them to follow. What about the rest of the gospels (excluding Mark because nothing is mentioned)?
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Luk 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
Luk 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.
Luk 5:3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.
Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
Luk 5:5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
Luk 5:6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.
Luk 5:7 And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.
Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
Luk 5:9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:
Luk 5:10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.
Luk 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.
================================================The Matthew and Luke accounts have some similarities but Luke has Jesus commanding Peter to cast his net out and catch all of those fish. In Matthew Jesus calls out to Peter and Andrew to follow and in Luke he enters the ship and the miraculous catch is narrated. The story of meeting James and John is similar as well but definitely not the same. So what about John’s gospel?
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Joh 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
Joh 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
Joh 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
Joh 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
================================================No boats, no fishing, no Peter and Andrew together to be called on by Jesus. Instead Andrew meets Jesus first and listens to him for some time then goes back and tells Peter about him. So who are we to believe, Matthew, Luke, or John?
Did the disciples have memory problems? Or was the feeding of a multitude of people with so little food a common occurrence in the first century?
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Mat 15:32 Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.
Mat 15:33 And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?
Mat 15:34 And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
================================================Isn’t it rather odd that the disciples should question where they would get the food to feed the multitude of people when just in the prior chapter he had already fed a multitude with so little?
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Mat 14:15 And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.
Mat 14:16 But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.
Mat 14:17 And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.
Mat 14:18 He said, Bring them hither to me.
Mat 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
Mat 14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.
Mat 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
================================================So later on Jesus says
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Mat 16:9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
Mat 16:10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
================================================Seems they didn’t remember the first time!
How many signs? None? One? Many?
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Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
================================================Well here Jesus says only one sign will be given, the sign of Jonah. But what does Mark say?
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Mar 8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
================================================While Luke agrees with Matthew, seems Mark has Jesus saying no signs will be given, not even the sign of Jonah. But John says that Jesus did many signs
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Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:Six or eight days?
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Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart
================================================Matthew and Mark agree that the period was six days but not Luke.
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Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.Confused on what to bring?
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Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.Luk 9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
================================================So Luke and Matthew agree that the disciples should not have staves but Mark does.
This has always been my favorite because it shows the utter nonsense that the book of Matthew is. The writer is so bent on making Jesus into the end times Moshiach that he can’t even pay attention to what he is writing and how much sense it makes!
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Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
Mat 21:3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
================================================Now picture Jesus riding on both animals at the same time!! Did he do like an Arabian rider and stand up with one foot on each, was he straddled across them like a bundle, or did they stretch a hammock between them so he could ride? This is one of the funnier blunders in Matthew. I love it!
At least Mark and Luke weren’t that dumb to make this monumental blunder. You can read their versions in Mark 11 and Luke 19.
Who’s your daddy?
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Mat 23:35 [KJV] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.Mat 23:35 [Apostles] so that on you may come all the righteous blood being shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
================================================Son of Barachias? Not according to the Tanakh not even the LXX.
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2Ch 24:20 [Apostles] And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, and he stood up above the people and said, Thus says the Lord: Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord? So shall you not prosper; for you have forsaken the Lord, and He will forsake you.30 pieces of silver?
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Mat 26:15 [KJV] And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.Mat 26:15 [NASB] and said, “What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?” And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him.
================================================First of all the common Roman currency was denarius (silver) and had been in use since 211 BCE. Secondly it would not have to be weighed out but rather just counted. This part of the story was a blatant copy of Joseph being sold to the Ishmaelites for 20 pieces of silver. The difference? Joseph was twenty was he was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Jesus was 30 or so when he was sold for 30 pieces of silver.
Quote http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/fallacies_unique.htm * Accent: Emphasis that changes the meaning of the sentence.
* Accident: A general rule used to explain a specific case not covered by it.
* Affirming the Consequent: If A then B. B is true, so A is true.
* Amphiboly: A sentence has two different meanings.
* Appeal to Authority: Referencing an 'expert'.
* Appeal to Common Belief: If others believe it to be true, it must be true.
* Appeal to Common Practice: If others do it, it must be ok to do it too.
* Appeal to Fear: Gaining compliance through threat.
* Appeal to Emotion: If it feels good, it must be true.
* Appeal to Novelty: Newer is better.
* Appeal to Pity: Going for the sympathy vote.
* Appeal to Ridicule: Mocking the other person's claim.
* Appeal to Tradition: It has always been done this way, so this way is right.
* Argument from Ignorance: Accepting circumstantial evidence.
* Assertion: What I say is true.
* Attack the Person: Distracting them from their argument.
* Begging the Question: Circular reasoning to prove assumed premise.
* Complex Question: two questions, one answer allowed.
* Composition: Generalizing from a few to the whole set.
* Conspiracy Theory: Reframe refutation as further proof.
* Denying the Antecedent: If A then B. A is false, so B is false.
* Division: Assuming the parts have the characteristics of the whole.
* Equivocation: A single word with more than one meaning.
* Excluded Middle: Only extreme views are valid.
* False Analogy: X has property Y. Z is like X. So Z has property Y.
* False Cause: A causes B (but no proof).
* False Compromise: Extreme views are wrong. The middle way is right.
* False Effect: A is assumed to cause B. B is proven wrong, so A is wrong.
* False Dilemma: Choice is A or B. Rejecting A is selecting B.
* Four Terms: All A is B. All C is D. So all A is D.
* Gambler's Fallacy: Chance can be predicted.
* Hasty Generalization: Generalizing from too-small a sample.
* Illicit Major: All X is Y. No P (which is a subset of Y) is X. Therefore no P is Y.
* Illicit Minor: All X are Y. All X are P. Therefore all P are Y.
* In a Certain Respect and Simply: Extending assumed boundaries too far.
* Insignificance: Making a minor cause seem major.
* Many Questions: overloading them with lots of questions.
* Missing the Point: Drawing the wrong conclusion.
* Personal Inconsistency: Past words or deeds do not match claim.
* Poisoning the Well: Discrediting the person before they speak.
* Post Hoc: X follows Y. Therefore X is caused by Y.
* Red Herring: Distracting with an irrelevancy.
* Repetition: Repeating something makes it more true.
* Slippery Slope: Loosely connected statements with ridiculous conclusion.
* Social Conformance: Agree with me or be socially isolated.
* Strawman: Attack a weak argument used by the other person.
* Style over Substance: An attractive presentation makes it more right.
* Undistributed Middle: All A is B. All C is B. Therefore all C is A.
* Unrepresentative Sample: What is true about any sample is also true about the population.
* Wishful Thinking: A is true because I want it to be true.Notice that “many questions” or overloading people with various questions might seem to create the impression that you have an argument, but this is a fallacy.
If you had a case, one of these questions would be enough.
Jesus warned people against himself!!
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Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
================================================Here Jesus is saying to beware of people who say they are Christ and that they will show many signs and wonders, such that they would deceive the elect. Compare this to
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Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 4:47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.
Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.High priest
? Only one!================================================
Mat 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
================================================The chief priest, or high priest, was called the Kohen Gadol and there was only one at a time. So why is there now more than one high priest in Jesus’ time? In fact there is only one instance of ‘chief priests’ and none of ‘high priests’ in the ‘old testament and even there it is not an accurate translation.
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Ezr 10:5 [KJV] Then arose Ezra, and made the chief priests, the Levites, and all Israel, to swear that they should do according to this word. And they sware.Ezr 10:5 [ESV] Then Ezra arose and made the leading priests and Levites and all Israel take oath that they would do as had been said. So they took the oath.
================================================So the GT writers did not even know that there could only be one high priest at a time!
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen#Kohen_Gadol
In every generation when the Temple was standing, one kohen would be singled out to perform the functions of Kohen Gadol (High Priest). His main job was the Yom Kippur service, but he did offer a daily meal sacrifice, and he had the prerogative to supersede any kohen and offer any offering he chose. A Kohen Gadol may only marry a virgin. Although Orthodox Judaism retains a procedure to select a Kohen Gadol when needed, there is no Kohen Gadol today, in the absence of a Temple.
Judas’ death and the ‘The Field of Blood’.
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Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
================================================According to Matthew, Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver into the temple and then hung himself. The silver was the used to buy the potter’s field and since it was bought with ‘blood money’ it was called ‘The Field of Blood’. But is that what Acts says?
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Act 1:18 Now this man {Judas} purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
================================================According to Acts it was not the priests who bought the field but Judas. After this Judas supposedly fell into the field and his guts burst out thereby giving the field its name ‘The Field of Blood’.
Matthew: priests buy field with ‘blood money’, field is therefore called ‘Field of Blood’
Acts: Judas buys field and dies in it, field is therefore called ‘Field of Blood’.Even more with the same passage
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Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Mat 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
================================================As already pointed out before, the prophet was not Jeremiah but Zechariah. If that were not enough, the context is all wrong and the passage from Zechariah is not prophecy!
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Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
================================================As you can see this was a record of what happened not a prophecy. Zechariah cast the silver to a potter in the house of YHVH. This had nothing at all to do with buying a potter’s field. Matthew was really grasping at straws with this one. Wrong prophet and no prophecy!
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2007,18:31) Plurium Interrogationum slow down, unless you're afraid to discuss these things.
OK, I'm finished with Matthew. I wanted to go ahead and finish so I can move on to Hebrews.Hi Stu:
You say:
Quote Does god still smite but is is not mentioned, or is he a reformed character? God has not changed and will not change. He is a God of Love, Mercy and Compassion, but He is also a God of justice. In the OT judgement has already been rendered to those who are not part of body of Christ and they are dead. They will not be resurrected to incur further judgment. In the NT those who are alive at the coming of Jesus for the church who are not part of the body of Christ will have received the mark of the beast and will be judged by the seven last plagues according to their works, and those in NT who are not a part of the body of Christ who have died in their sins prior to the coming of the Lord for the church will be raised from the dead to be judged according to their works. And so, yes God still does smite, but it is his desire to have mercy rather than to punish.
Quote Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. I hope this helps.
Quote (942767 @ Nov. 13 2007,11:53) Hi Stu: You say:
Quote Does god still smite but is is not mentioned, or is he a reformed character? God has not changed and will not change. He is a God of Love, Mercy and Compassion, but He is also a God of justice. In the OT judgement has already been rendered to those who are not part of body of Christ and they are dead. They will not be resurrected to incur further judgment. In the NT those who are alive at the coming of Jesus for the church who are not part of the body of Christ will have received the mark of the beast and will be judged by the seven last plagues according to their works, and those in NT who are not a part of the body of Christ who have died in their sins prior to the coming of the Lord for the church will be raised from the dead to be judged according to their works. And so, yes God still does smite, but it is his desire to have mercy rather than to punish.
Quote Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. I hope this helps.
Hi 942767Thank you for that dispassionate statement of mythological doctrine. I would like to know whether it is your opinion that killing people is an effective way of doing whatever it is god does. People still sin don't they?, and yet the (ineffective) smiting continues, albeit on a much reduced scale. Do you think it is ethically acceptable to kill judicially?
Stuart
Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2007,11:31) Plurium Interrogationum slow down, unless you're afraid to discuss these things.
When you throw-up stuff from books, websites, and other resources, it's hard to “discuss” anything. Have you ever tried to carry on a conversation when your puking? It seems to me that Tow has never been here to discuss – he has only come to cast his net of doubt and confusion. He has accomplished this. He has succeeded in his mission.I have received a few PM's from folks here, and they are utterly confused, discouraged, faith beaten-down, and ultimately questioning their religion all together. I hate to say, “I told you so….” but I will.
However, David, he appeals to your intellect it is obvious. But you lack judgement and spiritual discernment in engaging him. You have received many gentle warnings about him, and yet it appears that you move forward without concern for your brother's and sister's here who are of weaker faith than you. So, now that I have brought this to your attention, do with it what you will. You are really the only one who encourages this stranger. A few other's have already seen through him. I encourage you to pray about continuing on with him. He cannot preach when he doesn't have a congregation.
I don't know about other's, but I am not interested in what he has to say about Hebrews! I will not be looking in on that forum AT ALL. Of course, this is my choice. Other's are free to make their own choices.
I'm all for free speech (without bullying), but consider this a gentle warning that you continue at your own peril and that of other's.
Proverbs 26:20-28, in part
Without wood a fire goes out…
Like a coating of glaze over earthenware are fervent lips with an evil heart.
A malicious man disguises himself with his lips,
but in his heart he harbors deceit.Though his speech is charming, do not believe him,
for seven abominations fill his heart.His malice may be concealed by deception,
but his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.A lying tongue hates those it hurts,
and flattering mouth works ruin.Spiritual discernment is needed to walk further…..
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