- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Stu.
You cannot hear God and you lack insight into his existence, so is it any wonder you don't believe? It is a no-brainer as to why you are an athiest.
What else is there to say?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2009,08:53) Stu. You cannot hear God and you lack insight into his existence, so is it any wonder you don't believe? It is a no-brainer as to why you are an athiest.
What else is there to say?
I am glad you have finally realised. Welcome to a kinder and brighter non-believing future t8.Stuart
WorshippingJesus,
At the risk of presuming to speak for others, I would suggest that you go here for a different twist on the same kind of question that some are asking in this thread.
The issue, as I see it, is strictly about how the Christian bible portrays God's character. In other words, does the bible portray an accurate picture of the God you believe in, or do you sanitize scripture in order to conform to your beliefs about God?
In all honesty, I think that most Christians do the latter. In answering the question posed here, I firmly believe that the process will expose to yourself, and to others, in which camp you belong.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,16:56) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 28 2009,10:08) When God orders someone to kill it is God's judgment rendered for a crime or crimes committed. He did this in the OT. The Nation of Israel was a Theocracy, and Moses and those who were judges enforced the law or there were laws governing pertaining to certain violations of God's law. God also allowed nations like Assyria and Babylonia to come against his people as judgment for their sins. Many a time God delivered Israel to their enemies because of sin,and many a time He delivered them from their enemies when they repented.
Bro Marty,Thank you for explaining this, I really appreciate it.
I guess I do understand the theme that God is justified in killing because people are evil and disobedient, but it's hard to reconcile with his own decree to not kill/committ murder. Does this make sense? It truly is a case of, “Do as I say, not as I do.”. It's difficult to understand, and it's a deep subject that touches a lot of other topics.
I don't like to think of God (my Father), as a killer. He is the giver of life! I don't like to think of my Father as one who has little babies slaughtered. He is the one who watches while they are formed in the womb!
Punishment, I understand – it's needed and necessary. But killing and wiping out entire cities? I don't know….my faith isn't that large, I guess. I'll have to really pray for more understanding on this.
Thanks again,
Mandy
Hi Mandy:I will join you in prayer asking God to give you understanding of his Character.
Quote Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
hn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.Quote 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life Quote Psa 5:4 For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. Quote Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2009,21:14) Surely it is wise to be careful what you pray for? Stuart
nice quote stuuPraying REVEALS THE HEARTS ATTITUDE
SUBCONSCIOUSLY admitting a lack of faith, and the necessity that one must persuade or operate God as ta control panel.Hi Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
I am sorry WJ.
So am I. It saddens me that it has come to this. Tim I can honestly say that I have never intentionally misrepresented someone or purposely lied against anyone on this sight in the over 2 years and 5000+ post I have made.And I really do not remember calling anyone a liar here.
I am a little confused as to why you left the last part of my post where it was obvious that I was trying to clarify a point. This is what I said….
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02) If that is not what you meant, than I am sorry! I repent for I misunderstood you.
After your response, I have had to stop and step back and prayerfully consider what you and Mandy were saying about me speaking out of anger.I have reread the post over and over and have come to the conclusion that you are right. I did make a knee jerk reaction to what I perceived as being an accusation against those who believe the scriptures. For that I am really sorry and repent and ask for yours and Mandy’s forgiveness.
But I am still unclear about something which I will touch on later in this post. I know you said you will not respond and I will understand if you don’t.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
WJ, It is much too frustrating to continue a dialogue with a person who misquotes me and lies about my statements or intentions.
Again, I am sorry brother and repent. I understand your frustration for it surely has happened to me many a times here. And I might add it is also frustrating to have dialogue on a Biblical sight with those who believe the scriptures are corrupt, for anytime they disagree with what you believe the scriptures say they can always say the “Scriptures are corrupt”, convenient wouldn’t you say?Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19) This will be my last response to you, and I debated the futility of even responding.
I am fairly certain that I will regret this. It is dangerous to talk to a person who misrepresents your words for their own agenda.
I am not so sure how to take this. I am disappointed that you infer here that I am a dangerous person and would misrepresent you for my own agenda. Have you ever seen me purposely do this in the past Tim?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)
“But, your statement is meant to be against those like myself who sees that God is not only a God of Love but a God of Justice. “Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
NO, NO, NO! I can’t count the number of times that I said that I believe that God is both a God of love and a God of justice. I can’t help it if I see no justice in some of the actions of which the bible accuses God. It is your precious bible in which I find fault.
Understood, and again I am sorry. I might add that yes I do consider the inspired scriptures that thousands have given their entire lives and even died for in order to compile and preserve what we call the Holy Bible today as precious. I will go further on to say there is not one thing that I know about my God that is not found in the Holy Scriptures, and I venture to say that no one else on this forum does either. Remember it is the scriptures that claim divine inspiration, so merely saying that one has the Spirit of God does not make void what is written.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)
“You are the one who made the inflammatory statement “Beautiful Justice” and “sickening against those who trust the scriptures though we may not understand certain things written, when in fact I know of no believer that would think that such judgments are “Beautiful”.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
I never made those statements against those who trust the scriptures. I made those statements against those who justify atrocities as being good.
Again your point is well taken. But how about those who justify certain atrocities as being God as apposed to what we see as being good? This is where it is a little murky for me Tim, so please try and hear me out. I believe that God is Good and everything that he does is ultimately good whether we may understand it or not. When God brought the flood on the earth it was to wipe out every living thing on the earth, (not just man) because man had become so wicked that the thoughts of man’s heart was evil “continuously”.. I might say what about all those little babies and children and all of the innocent animals, why did they have to suffer and die? God’s judgments were good, because who knows what would have been if God had not done this?Sodom and Gomorrah is another example, God wiped out 2 cities, woman and children alike because of the wickedness that came up to heaven itself. It would be a bad thing for God not to do something than let their sexual immorality to spread. We don’t understand what may have been going on in Sodom and Gomorrah; they could have been raping their children Etc. My point is what we may perceive as good or evil for man, may not be good or evil in God’s eyes. For instance he says “our righteousness is as filthy rags”.
As the scriptures says “Gods judgments are unsearchable, and his ways past finding out!
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
Do you think that I just crawled out from under a rock last night? I have called myself a Christian for over forty years.
Of course I do not think that you crawled out from under a rock. I am not sure what you mean by “called yourself a Christian”, but I also have been a Christian for 45 years and pioneered and Pastored two Churches, been to 4 Bible schools, have obtained a Bachelors in Biblical studies and a Masters in Divinity and am currently working on a Doctorate. I am the first to say I am not
an articulate speaker or know how to use fancy words in my speeches. I have realized that the more I learn the more I don’t know. Degrees and years mean nothing if we have not grown in the Grace and knowledge and Love of the Lord and Love for his people. I for one will admit that I make a lot of mistakes, but I do know in whom I have believed and what I believe.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
I have been in churches and around other Christians for longer than that. I have personally witnessed other Christian’s sweep this kind of mind deadening atrocity out of their consciousness by rolling their eyes towards heaven and proclaiming God’s beautiful justice. Whether you believe what the bible says or not, it is still reprehensible to the senses to think that kind of brutality is a good thing.
Maybe I am wrong Tim, but it seems to me you are a little bitter here. I am not sensing love and concern or even a tolerance for those who may not believe as you do. Having certain feelings about God and his “morality” as if God has to be classified as a “moral being” like man, is ambiguous IMO and open for debate, for God is above the Laws that he gave man and he can and will do as he wills with what he created.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02) [ “Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought horrendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?” Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
See, there you go again. Is there something wrong with your cognitive ability?
I have never said that it sickens me for anyone to BELIEVE the scriptures.
You keep making that up to justify your attack on me.
Again! I am Sorry! Tim it seems to me that you are not listening here either, for in my statement there is no attack on you but if you will notice my statement is questions. Attacks do not usually come in the form of questions. I was trying to clarify what you meant and pressing for an answer in which I still do not feel that I am clear on. I was not meaning to personally attack you. Maybe I didn’t word my question right. Maybe I should have worded it like this…
“
Does it sicken you for a believer to believe that God can do all the atrocities found in the scriptures and call that his judgments and believe that all of them are divinely inspired and true accurate accounts of his judgments?”Again the judgment of God is not a pretty or beautiful thing, but I believe that whatever he does in the end he will be justified and it will be for good. He can turn ashes into beauty.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)
“Is the God that you believe in the God of the Bible and if not is your God better?”Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
That is at least a civil question WJ. I learned about “my” God from the bible.
Subsequently, my God has shown me that He is better than how the bible portrays Him to be.
Really? Tim can you tell us what you know about God where it is not found in the Bible? This is definitely where I disagree with you, and so would Jesus and the Apostles and the Church Fathers. God is bigger than the book of course, but the scriptures were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Prophets and Apostles quote them often, so that makes the book valid. Of course this also is a faith issue and everyman can choose what he will believe or not believe.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
He is sorting out His true believers by who really knows Him and His character, in spite of what was written about Him.
Who is his true believers but those who believe in Jesus Christ and the good news of the Gospel that Jesus lived, died and rose again and whoever believes in him has eternal life.I do not know anyone on this sight except for maybe a couple who do not believe this. Are we not true believers though we may have differences in our views? That is the problem with churches today that they constantly divide, and guess what I see? Those who have removed themselves from churches are no different for they also have made themselves the elite and criticize those who are part of a group that disagrees with them. These same ones that have removed themselves from fellowship claim they have the truth. How are they any different? They claim that they were branded as a heretic and mistreated for not believing in the Trinity, so they left. Well the real world is I am also branded a heretic because I am one of the few here. Hello!!! When is someone going to step up to the plate and turn the other cheek and love their enemies and bring unity in Spirit to the Church?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)
“Does it anger you Tim to hear a Christian say that he believes in the inherency of the scriptures?”Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
I believe that you meant inerrancy, but I want to be certain that I am answering the proper question. It does not anger me for Christians to believe in the inerrancy of the bible.
I just think that they are deluded by what they are taught that they have to believe.
I am a perfect example of what Christians do to anyone that questions that belief.
It obviously angers you for anyone to not believe in the inerrancy of the bible.
Thanks for pointing out my spelling errors. No Tim I am not angry when someone doesn’t believe in the “inerrancy” of the Scriptures, or I would not have stayed here as long as I have. It does bother me when professing believers criticize or degrade the Holy scriptures which my Lord held in High Esteem It is especially frustrating to have dialogue about scriptures with someone that doesn't believe they are true.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)
“So I guess that I sicken you because I trust the scriptures without a full understanding of the God who inspired them, since I believe all of them. Is that right?”Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
This is not even worth answering again. You are off on some tangent that I never even insinuated.
You are obviously so blinded by your anger that you can not read what is said.
Yes I was angry, and again am sorry for my knee jerk reaction.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
You posted my quoteQuote (TimothyVI Feb. 28 2009 @ 11:05)
It is that mentality that justified the burning alive of thousands of poor helpless women as “witches” in the minds of non thinking Christians.and then said,
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)
And what is this but an insinuation that if I or anyone else who accepts the God of the Bible that somehow they condone such actions or are guilty of them?”
This is not an insinuation of anything of the kind. Do you forget that I call myself a Christian.
This is exactly what it says it is. It is a statement that Christians that were afraid to question their understanding of the bible felt justified in burning people because of their religion.
If they had know the true God they would have known that He would not condone such actions.
It is a fact that it happened, it is a fact who instigated it.. Do you stick your head in the sand and claim that these things did not happen?
Tim, no I do not stick my head in the sand, but in fact it appears that maybe you and many other Arians do just that for appealing to such because I am a Trinitarian. Who instigated it is debatable, read your history bro.Have I threatened you with torture or murder if you do not agree with my doctrine? Why would you appeal to this unless you believe that because I am a Trinitarian that somehow I could do this.
Suppose I because of your denial of scriptures was to appeal to the murders that the Arians (anti-Trinitarians) did against the many Trinitarians during the rein of Constantius II and Valens? The Arians were in control of the Church for many years.
History shows that Constantius II and Valens who were Arians, committed murder and torture against many Trinitarians as well.
However to minimize the extent of Arianism ignores the fact that extremely prominent Emperors such as Constantius II, the first Christian Emperor, and Valens were Arians, as well as prominent Gothic, Vandal and Lombard warlords both before and after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and that none of these groups were out of the mainstream of the Roman Empire in the 4th century.
Source.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)
So I ask again Tim…Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought horrendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?”
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
There you go again WJ. You have made this entire post about something that I never even eluded to. I never, never, never said that it sickens me that you or anyone else chooses to BELIEVE the scriptures.
Get over it and quit lying about what I said.You mean “alluded” to don’t you?
I am Sorry Tim. Please though, look at my statement; it is questions that I feel like you didn’t answer. I did not intentionally lie against you. Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 01 2009,00:19)
WorshippingJesus, you may get in the last word.
I will not reply to you again so fire away.
As I said in the beginning,
I consider it dangerous to have a dialogue with a person who misrepresents your words for their own agenda.
Tim
I am truly sorry that you feel that having dialogue with me is dangerous and that you think I would purposely lie or misrepresent you.Again, I repent and ask for your forgiveness. WJ
Quote (charity @ Mar. 04 2009,05:36) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2009,21:14) Surely it is wise to be careful what you pray for? Stuart
nice quote stuuPraying REVEALS THE HEARTS ATTITUDE
SUBCONSCIOUSLY admitting a lack of faith, and the necessity that one must persuade or operate God as ta control panel.
Hi charityJesus must not of had very much faith then, for there were times he prayed all night.
WJ
Keith,
I have tears in my eyes….big ones! Of course I forgive you (but I honestly forget why I need to?)
That's what brother's and sister's do – they just love each other anyway. Forgive me, too, okay? I need to show more respect for your beliefs. I don't have to be so sassy all the time (really I dont!). I knew you would come back with something like this post to Tim. I knew because I have come to know your character, and your love for God. Just today I was running errands and I was thinking about you. You've been silent since this last exchange. I was going to leave you a note here tonight……but here you are. I'm so happy.
Much love to you, bro!
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2009,17:57) Quote (charity @ Mar. 04 2009,05:36) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2009,21:14) Surely it is wise to be careful what you pray for? Stuart
nice quote stuuPraying REVEALS THE HEARTS ATTITUDE
SUBCONSCIOUSLY admitting a lack of faith, and the necessity that one must persuade or operate God as ta control panel.
Hi charityJesus must not of had very much faith then, for there were times he prayed all night.
WJ
Why would a man-god pray to himself?Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 04 2009,18:26) Keith, I have tears in my eyes….big ones! Of course I forgive you (but I honestly forget why I need to?)
That's what brother's and sister's do – they just love each other anyway. Forgive me, too, okay? I need to show more respect for your beliefs. I don't have to be so sassy all the time (really I dont!). I knew you would come back with something like this post to Tim. I knew because I have come to know your character, and your love for God. Just today I was running errands and I was thinking about you. You've been silent since this last exchange. I was going to leave you a note here tonight……but here you are. I'm so happy.
Much love to you, bro!
Mandy
Hi MandyThanks!
I really appreciate your heart.
I wil get to your post as time permits.
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2009,17:57) Quote (charity @ Mar. 04 2009,05:36) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2009,21:14) Surely it is wise to be careful what you pray for? Stuart
nice quote stuuPraying REVEALS THE HEARTS ATTITUDE
SUBCONSCIOUSLY admitting a lack of faith, and the necessity that one must persuade or operate God as ta control panel.
Hi charityJesus must not of had very much faith then, for there were times he prayed all night.
WJ
dose a Lamb plead with the butcher for its body, before its Life…with the killer., or at the table with the cooks?Quote (charity @ Mar. 05 2009,06:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2009,17:57) Quote (charity @ Mar. 04 2009,05:36) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2009,21:14) Surely it is wise to be careful what you pray for? Stuart
nice quote stuuPraying REVEALS THE HEARTS ATTITUDE
SUBCONSCIOUSLY admitting a lack of faith, and the necessity that one must persuade or operate God as ta control panel.
Hi charityJesus must not of had very much faith then, for there were times he prayed all night.
WJ
dose a Lamb plead with the butcher for its body, before its Life…with the killer., or at the table with the cooks?
Hi CharityThe Father was not the killer!
Jesus wasn't a beggar!
The Lamb is alive!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2009,12:30) Quote (charity @ Mar. 05 2009,06:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2009,17:57) Quote (charity @ Mar. 04 2009,05:36) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2009,21:14) Surely it is wise to be careful what you pray for? Stuart
nice quote stuuPraying REVEALS THE HEARTS ATTITUDE
SUBCONSCIOUSLY admitting a lack of faith, and the necessity that one must persuade or operate God as ta control panel.
Hi charityJesus must not of had very much faith then, for there were times he prayed all night.
WJ
dose a Lamb plead with the butcher for its body, before its Life…with the killer., or at the table with the cooks?
Hi CharityThe Father was not the killer!
Jesus wasn't a beggar!
The Lamb is alive!
WJ
Dear wordshippingJesusAs Usual hesitation o cures upon being baited
I feel the same as Tim, dialog is not always profitable for the intended stir.
Also I may not behave myself as well AS Tim in my reaction!, to be as aggressively polite as he was.
I will answer you from time to time.charity
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2009,12:30) Jesus wasn't a beggar! WJ
27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?Stuart
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote Hi Charity The Father was not the killer!
Jesus wasn't a beggar!
The Lamb is alive!
WJ
According to the logic that you have layed out in this thread, the Father was no different from the killers. Much like the man who stands by while someone gets raped in front of him, the Father stood by and watched His son get killed. He had the power to stop it but did not.
Does that not make Him a very strong co-conspirator – a co-murderer – according to your logic? (If not, then I think you might see Mandy's point a little more clearly.)
Just wondering.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,01:30) WorshippingJesus wrote: Quote Hi Charity The Father was not the killer!
Jesus wasn't a beggar!
The Lamb is alive!
WJ
According to the logic that you have layed out in this thread, the Father was no different from the killers. Much like the man who stands by while someone gets raped in front of him, the Father stood by and watched His son get killed. He had the power to stop it but did not.
Does that not make Him a very strong co-conspirator – a co-murderer – according to your logic? (If not, then I think you might see Mandy's point a little more clearly.)
Just wondering.
WITThat is the point.
God cannot be judged by human terms or laws of morality that apply to man.
He is above any judgment and any laws.
He cannot be judged a “killer” (muderer) because he takes life, for he also gave that life.
He is the potter and we are the clay. He is the owner of his creation and can do with it as he wills and who can accuse him of wrong!
WJ
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
