God&#39;s voice

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,02:48)

Good morning!

Again, we are not talking about God having the power to stop Moses from committing murder, we are talking about God COMMANDING Moses to committ murder.

I think it's hard to grasp because those who are loyal to the written Word DO find problems with what Tim and I are presenting….. But to admit that there is a problem is to question God. And that is a no-no, big time!!

So the only answer is to remain faithful to the same written Word, knowing that you cannot fathom all of it no matter how hard you try.

I understand giving up and letting God be God. That is why when I receive those types of answers from people, I just say, “Okay, sounds good.” and leave it at that. Knowing that they cannot give any other answer.

I'm off to run errands today….

Much love to ya bro,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,02:48)

No it is you and Tim that has problems with it.

I have accepted that God cannot be called a murderer regardless of what he does.

He gives life and he takes it and that is why he is “Sovereign”.

I do not pretend to say that I understand how God can allow any evil to happen when he has the power to stop it especially when he is a God of Love.

But you and Tim want to ignore this or make it as if it is a lesser evil for God to do nothing while at the same time accusing Christians who trust God and the scriptures as being blind or sickening as Tim puts it.

Talk about human sacrifice, have you considered that your faith is based on that very fact.

Abraham was considered “Faithful” because he was going to put his son to death at Gods command. Judaism and Christianity are children of Abraham and their religion (yours and mine) began with human sacrifice.

The Father gave Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins. He even turned his face while he watched his only unique Son suffer and die an excruciating death at the hands of evil men.

Does this mean that God is guilty of human sacrifice? I say yes. But does this make God a sinner?

No, because this is proof to me that the creator is above the laws that he gave to man.

Who is God's judge? Who can accuse him of murder or sin?

God gives life and he takes it, he can do with it as he pleases and that doesn’t make him a sinner because it is his.

Man is his creation and he can do with him as he pleases.

Example is if you have a chicken that you paid for and you wanted to kill it to eat then you have a right to it because it is yours, but if you kill your neighbors chicken then that would be morally wrong, but if your neighbor tells you to kill his chicken then he has that right.

But you and Tim IMO think that you know how to be God better than God does.

Is this offensive? Maybe so, but I believe it is the truth and that the reality all around you of the evils in the world and the judgments to come by God is proof of it.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9

Mandy I still pray for you as I hope you do for me. I have no anomosity against you or Tim, but my passion is directed against what I believe to be wrong. Jesus, the Apostles, the church Fathers that I know of never spoke against the scriptures but in fact called them Holy and able to lead us to salvation.

Anyway, again we must part in our beliefs!

God Bless!

Love Keith

February 27, 2009 at 11:08 pm#123508

942767

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,09:36)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,02:48)

Good morning!

Again, we are not talking about God having the power to stop Moses from committing murder, we are talking about God COMMANDING Moses to committ murder.

So the only answer is to remain faithful to the same written Word, knowing that you cannot fathom all of it no matter how hard you try.

I'm off to run errands today….

Much love to ya bro,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,02:48)

No it is you and Tim that has problems with it.

I have accepted that God cannot be called a murderer regardless of what he does.

He gives life and he takes it and that is why he is “Sovereign”.

I do not pretend to say that I understand how God can allow any evil to happen when he has the power to stop it especially when he is a God of Love.

Talk about human sacrifice, have you considered that your faith is based on that very fact.

The Father gave Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins. He even turned his face while he watched his only unique Son suffer and die an excruciating death at the hands of evil men.

Does this mean that God is guilty of human sacrifice? I say yes. But does this make God a sinner?

No, because this is proof to me that the creator is above the laws that he gave to man.

Who is God's judge? Who can accuse him of murder or sin?

God gives life and he takes it, he can do with it as he pleases and that doesn’t make him a sinner because it is his.

Man is his creation and he can do with him as he pleases.

But you and Tim IMO think that you know how to be God better than God does.

Is this offensive? Maybe so, but I believe it is the truth and that the reality all around you of the evils in the world and the judgments to come by God is proof of it.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9

Anyway, again we must part in our beliefs!

God Bless!

Love Keith

Hi WJ:

My understanding is that God allows evil because he won't intervene with a man's “free will”, and an indvidual cannot be judged except by the works that he does.

He also allows evil to call a person out of this destructive life style into a personal relationship with him. Sin is destructive to a person and to those whom that person is sinning against, and salvation begins with delivering a person from destroying themselves.

Finally, God allows evil because all of us have done evil of one sort or another, and so when we are reconciled to God, none of us can boast that we have been saved because of our own goodness, but we have been saved because of God's goodness.

When God orders someone to kill it is God's judgment rendered for a crime or crimes committed. He did this in the OT. The Nation of Israel was a Theocracy, and Moses and those who were judges enforced the law or there were laws governing pertaining to certain violations of God's law. God also allowed nations like Assyria and Babylonia to come against his people as judgment for their sins. Many a time God delivered Israel to their enemies because of sin,and many a time He delivered them from their enemies when they repented.

Jesus has said: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. Greater love has no man than he should lose his life for his friends. God suffered all the agony and the insults that humanity could do to Him in the person of Jesus His Son and His Christ. And he allowed this so that even the most wicked man on the face of the earth could be reconciled to Him if that person desired to do so. Jesus breathed: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 28, 2009 at 12:05 am#123516

TimothyVI

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,09:36)

Hi WJ,
I would have never believed that you would slander me or anyone else here. I never said that Christians that trust God and the scriptures were blind or sickening.
You made that up. You are so angry that anyone would question the bible. When you can't give reasonable answers to the questions you resort to slander and mud slinging.

Here is what I said WJ. “How cold, black hearted must these men have become after hacking to death mothers who were
shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their misery by slicing them to death.”

I made a statement of how this killing must have affected the ones doing the killing.
Do you disagree with my statement that doing something like that would harden a mans heart regardless of why they did it?

Then I said “I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.”

Considering this BEAUTIFUL JUSTICE does sicken me.
The act of blindly denying the cruelty of the act and claiming this brutality beautiful justice, is what sickens me.

WJ, if you are one of the people that sees slicing little children to death as beautiful justice? If the mere act of visualizing something as horendous as that doesn't sicken you, then your heart is as cold as the men that did it and I have nothing more to discuss with you at all.

It is that mentality that justified the burning alive of thousands of poor helpless women as “witches” in the minds of non thinking Christians.

Tim

February 28, 2009 at 12:53 am#123517

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,09:36)

But you and Tim IMO think that you know how to be God better than God does.

Whoa….Oh, goodness! I'm going to stop reading right here at this quote. This does not sound like you, Keith. I think you are reacting in anger instead of your usual calm-well-thought-out-loving way. This topic must have struck some sort of chord with you?

Anyway, I was just quickly checking in before dinner. Clearly, your post deserves more of a thoughtful response from me. I'll be back later.

Love,
Mandy

February 28, 2009 at 1:02 am#123519

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 28 2009,11:05)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,09:36)

Then I said “I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.”

Considering this BEAUTIFUL JUSTICE does sicken me.
The act of blindly denying the cruelty of the act and claiming this brutality beautiful justice, is what sickens me.

It is that mentality that justified the burning alive of thousands of poor helpless women as “witches” in the minds of non thinking Christians.

Tim

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 28 2009,11:05)

Then I said “I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.”

Considering this BEAUTIFUL JUSTICE does sicken me.
The act of blindly denying the cruelty of the act and claiming this brutality beautiful justice, is what sickens me.

Call it what you want Tim.

But, your statement is meant to be against those like myself who sees that God is not only a God of Love but a God of Justice.

Your statement is an insinuation that believers in the Holy scriptures that show God as a Just God who executes judgments on humanity regardles of how he does it or whether or not it fits our own concepts of a moral God, is that we are somehow denying him and are blind because you do not believe God can do that. You are the one who made the inflamatory statement “Beautiful Justice” and “sickening against those who trust the scriptures though we may not understand certain things written, when in fact I know of no believer that would think that such judgments are “Beautiful”.

So you have the right to say as you will and insinuate as you will. My response is because to me those who believe like I do sickens you.

Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought herendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?

Is the God that you believe in the God of the Bible and if not is your God better?

My point is clear. If you want to deny that God who is Love can allow all the sick and evil to happen to man without stopping it and yet believe that God is any different than the God of the Bible that is your perogative.

Does it anger you Tim to hear a Christian say that he believes in the inherency of the scriptures?

So I guess that I sicken you because I trust the scriptures without a full understanding of the God who inspired them, since I believe all of them. Is that right?

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 28 2009,11:05)

It is that mentality that justified the burning alive of thousands of poor helpless women as “witches” in the minds of non thinking Christians.

And what is this but an insinuation that if I or anyone else who accepts the God of the Bible that somehow they condone such actions or are guilty of them?

I am surprised that you didn't mention the word Trinitarian.

I am not God, nor can I judge him.

So I ask again Tim…

Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought herendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?

If that is not what you meant, than I am sorry! I repent for I missunderstood you.

Angry, Yep. I for one believe sometimes it is good to be angry, but I do not let the sun go down on my wrath.

Waiting for your reply!

February 28, 2009 at 1:09 am#123520

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,11:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,09:36)

But you and Tim IMO think that you know how to be God better than God does.

Anyway, I was just quickly checking in before dinner. Clearly, your post deserves more of a thoughtful response from me. I'll be back later.

Love,
Mandy

Mandy

That is fine.

If I am wrong in my statement than tell my why.

The reason I made that statement was because I believe God is infinite and to try and explain how he could bring such judgments on man or even allow such evil is beyond our capicity to understand. If we Judge or percieve who God is by who we are then we are making him in our image, IMO.

Keith

February 28, 2009 at 3:11 am#123530

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 28 2009,07:26)

The power of the scriptures in incomparable to the power of an anesthetic. How long would you participate in a message board about anesthesia, hmmm?

Many are coming to Christ. He provides the way to the only God that is a Father to His followers, one that gives freedom to choose to follow or not or to even follow their false god. Have you noticed how many Moslems have moved to America? The United States has religious freedom because of the Christian faith. Any religion can come here and build their mosque or temple and not have to fear imprisonment as well as gather together without fear of persecution. Christians do not have those freedoms if they live in Moslem countries.

The God of Christ is a loving and patient Father longing for all to know Him.

I would say that anaesthetics actually have a use and scripture doesn't, unless you stand on your bible to reach the top shelf. It is only because there are a lot of people still suffering from infection by the christian meme that there are long and earnest discussions about its book of mythology.

The 'many' who are coming to christianity live in third world countries. They are poor, uneducated and life must seem so unjust that christianity's false promise of justice in the hereafter appeals enough for them to believe things they might have thought silly, if they don't still.

Since I do not live in the US I have not noticed the increase in the number of mohommadeans but I believe you. While there will always be extremists and miserable traditional family values followed in that faith system the experience in the UK I think is of secularisation of those people, especially the young. They see the secular society around them with its freedoms and resent the old ways, and I think they are right to, and I think that is right when it happens within christianity too. Religious freedom is the liberty to behave as if you are insane without anyone hassling you about it.

This god of yours allegedly ordered the deaths of humans or caused them directly. It is just to demand of someone that he kills another human? I am glad not to be infected by christianity, it is a brutal condition by the looks of it.

Stuart

February 28, 2009 at 3:20 am#123531

Participant

Clearly it is not true that you cannot judge god. At the very least I would suspect that you have judged your god as 'good'. Are you only capable of obsequiousness in regard to this deity that orders assassinations like a common mafia boss?

Stuart

February 28, 2009 at 5:41 am#123556

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 28 2009,14:11)

I am glad not to be infected by christianity, it is a brutal condition by the looks of it.

Hi Stu,

I have been struggling with some of God's actions in the bible. Tonight I have been reading on a site: http://www.godandscience.org. I'm not sure if you would be interested in visiting it or not, but it's answered a few of my questions.

Love,
Mandy

February 28, 2009 at 5:56 am#123562

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 28 2009,10:08)

Bro Marty,

Thank you for explaining this, I really appreciate it.

I guess I do understand the theme that God is justified in killing because people are evil and disobedient, but it's hard to reconcile with his own decree to not kill/committ murder. Does this make sense? It truly is a case of, “Do as I say, not as I do.”. It's difficult to understand, and it's a deep subject that touches a lot of other topics.

I don't like to think of God (my Father), as a killer. He is the giver of life! I don't like to think of my Father as one who has little babies slaughtered. He is the one who watches while they are formed in the womb!

Punishment, I understand – it's needed and necessary. But killing and wiping out entire cities? I don't know….my faith isn't that large, I guess. I'll have to really pray for more understanding on this.

Thanks again,
Mandy

February 28, 2009 at 6:19 am#123566

Participant

Hi Keith,

I went back and re-read our dialog together. I see that I am essentially saying the same thing over and over again, which tells me that I don't think you are hearing me. And maybe you can't hear me because you are angry tonight?

Quote

I have accepted that God cannot be called a murderer regardless of what he does.

All I know is that God said not to kill. Then God ordered the death of thousands – entire cities! This is very confusing to me.

I understand that you easily accept it, but I cannot. I do question it, and I don't believe it is shameful to do so.

Quote

I do not pretend to say that I understand how God can allow any evil to happen when he has the power to stop it especially when he is a God of Love.

I know Keith, neither one of us has all the answers. But I do feel that it is okay for me to question what I read in the bible. I think my Father is big enough to handle questions from his little girl.

Quote

Who is God's judge? Who can accuse him of murder or sin?

His own Law?
I dunno….
All I'm doing is reading the bible and trying to put 2 and 2 together. It doesn't always add up!

Quote

But you and Tim IMO think that you know how to be God better than God does.

Of course this isn't true, and I think you said it because you are angry. We have the right to question things that don't make sense, Keith. I have not made any personal comments about you and your faith. I have been sticking to the subject. Review our dialog and you will see this is true. If not, than I apologize of course.

Quote

Of course I still pray for you – we have a mutal respect for one another. And I appreciate your passion (I admire your passion).

I'm sure there were doubter's who spoke out against Jesus' teachings. I'm sure there were doubter's who spoke out against the scriptures. Who said, “Lord help me in my disbelief….”? Where have you learned that it is not okay to question? When has this become a crime? Or something to be utterly ashamed about? Sure, doubt is not a good thing. We are warned time and time again to avoid it. But only God can answer our heart's cry, and our minds questions about Himself.

Quote

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9

Amen. We must always come to this conclusion when we cannot make total sense of God's actions. I'm willing to let it rest there.

Much love to you always,
Mandy

February 28, 2009 at 8:31 am#123575

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,17:19)

Hi Keith,

Quote

I have accepted that God cannot be called a murderer regardless of what he does.

All I know is that God said not to kill. Then God ordered the death of thousands – entire cities! This is very confusing to me.

I understand that you easily accept it, but I cannot. I do question it, and I don't believe it is shameful to do so.

Quote

I do not pretend to say that I understand how God can allow any evil to happen when he has the power to stop it especially when he is a God of Love.

Quote

Who is God's judge? Who can accuse him of murder or sin?

His own Law?
I dunno….
All I'm doing is reading the bible and trying to put 2 and 2 together. It doesn't always add up!

Quote

But you and Tim IMO think that you know how to be God better than God does.

Quote

Of course I still pray for you – we have a mutal respect for one another. And I appreciate your passion (I admire your passion).

Quote

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9

Amen. We must always come to this conclusion when we cannot make total sense of God's actions. I'm willing to let it rest there.

Much love to you always,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 28 2009,17:19)

Where have you learned that it is not okay to question? When has this become a crime? Or something to be utterly ashamed about? Sure, doubt is not a good thing. We are warned time and time again to avoid it. But only God can answer our heart's cry, and our minds questions about Himself.

If all that is on this thread, the remarks and post were about just “questions” that is one thing.

But that is not what is happening here.

What is happening is the world is watching and listening to what they perceive as “Believers” or “Christians” who are degrading the Holy Scriptures which is able to make them wise to salvation. 2 Tim 3:15

Then there is IMO personal attacks on believers for believing such things about God that are written therein.

There will be a judgment day Mandy, and the scriptures tell us it will not be pretty. Just read some of Jesus own words concerning the wrath of God to come.

You would have to throw away 2 thirds of the entire Bible if you believe that terrible judgments of God will not come on humanity, and unfortunately many of whom we perceive will be innocent.

I have many questions and consider myself as a mere worm compared to the Sovereign Lord.

The deep things of God are past finding out. Someday we will have the answer, but to presume upon God that he cannot do this or that because we perceive it is morally wrong especially when we look all around us and see the evils coming on man now, is not wise IMO. Especially when we never once read of Jesus, the Apostles or church Fathers speaking evil of the scriptures. Do we know more than they? Are they not the foundation of the Church, Jesus being the chief cornerstone?

The kind of unbelief that I am hearing here in the written scriptures only leads to more unbelief until you really do not believe any of it IMO.

Everyman is entitled to his opinion, but as believers we should stand up for what is right, and condemning the Holy Scriptures is wrong IMO.

Does this mean the scriptures are my God? No, I have a personal relationship with God, but I can say that there is nothing that I know about him that is not found in the scriptures. Someday it is the scriptures that we have committed to memory that may be the only comfort that we have if this world comes to the place where they no longer allow men to even own the “evil book” as they see it.

Didn't Jesus say that the Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance what he had said to the Disciples? Well the Disciples penned what he said and the Holy Spirit will still bring those things to our remembrance. Does this mean God cannot speak out of the Bible? No, of course not, but I venture to say if it is God it will line up with the scriptures.

Again Jesus said…

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matt 5:18

This shows the High regard and the belief that Jesus had in the accuracy of the scriptures that he had available to him that were as old as 1300 years.

As long as men hate the scriptures then they will hate us for we believe in the God that is written about therein.

Blessings

February 28, 2009 at 8:44 am#123576

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 28 2009,14:20)

Stuart

Stu

Considering that God is all-knowing and all-powerful and that he created the heavens and the earth at his fingertips, I would say Yes!

Maybe I should clarify my statement…

Who am I to Judge God and his actions?

Someday you may find this to be true of yourself!

February 28, 2009 at 12:09 pm#123590

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,19:44)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 28 2009,14:20)

Stuart

Stu

Considering that God is all-knowing and all-powerful and that he created the heavens and the earth at his fingertips, I would say Yes!

Maybe I should clarify my statement…

Who am I to Judge God and his actions?

Someday you may find this to be true of yourself!

Does all-knowing and all-powerful make it right? You would have a spine and a sense of justice to make a judgement on such a brute.

You know nothing about the truth of this either way. No person can, and your bluff is a bit dull.

Stuart

February 28, 2009 at 1:19 pm#123591

TimothyVI

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2009,12:02)

Call it what you want Tim.

But, your statement is meant to be against those like myself who sees that God is not only a God of Love but a God of Justice.

So you have the right to say as you will and insinuate as you will. My response is because to me those who believe like I do sickens you.

Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought herendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?

Is the God that you believe in the God of the Bible and if not is your God better?

Does it anger you Tim to hear a Christian say that he believes in the inherency of the scriptures?

So I guess that I sicken you because I trust the scriptures without a full understanding of the God who inspired them, since I believe all of them. Is that right?

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 28 2009,11:05)

It is that mentality that justified the burning alive of thousands of poor helpless women as “witches” in the minds of non thinking Christians.

And what is this but an insinuation that if I or anyone else who accepts the God of the Bible that somehow they condone such actions or are guilty of them?

I am surprised that you didn't mention the word Trinitarian.

I am not God, nor can I judge him.

So I ask again Tim…

Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought herendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?

If that is not what you meant, than I am sorry! I repent for I missunderstood you.

Angry, Yep. I for one believe sometimes it is good to be angry, but I do not let the sun go down on my wrath.

Waiting for your reply!

I am sorry WJ, It is much too frustrating to continue a dialogue with a person who misquotes me and lies about my statements or intentions. This will be my last response to you, and I debated the futility of even responding.
I am fairly certain that I will regret this. It is dangerous to talk to a person who misrepresents your words for their own agenda.

You said,
“But, your statement is meant to be against those like myself who sees that God is not only a God of Love but a God of Justice. “

NO, NO, NO! I can’t count the number of times that I said that I believe that God is both a God of love and a God of justice. I can’t help it if I see no justice in some of the actions of which the bible accuses God. It is your precious bible in which I find fault.

You said’
“You are the one who made the inflamatory statement “Beautiful Justice” and “sickening against those who trust the scriptures though we may not understand certain things written, when in fact I know of no believer that would think that such judgments are “Beautiful”.

I never made those statements against those who trust the scriptures. I made those statements against those who justify atrocities as being good.
Do you think that I just crawled out from under a rock last night?
I have called myself a Christian for over forty years. I have been in churches and around other Christians for longer than that. I have personally witnessed other Christian’s sweep this kind of mind deadening atrocity out of their consciousness by rolling their eyes towards heaven and proclaiming God’s beautiful justice. Whether you believe what the bible says or not, it is still reprehensible to the senses to think that kind of brutality is a good thing.

You said,
“Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought herendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?”

See, there you go again. Is there something wrong with your cognitive ability?
I have never said that it sickens me for anyone to BELIEVE the scriptures.
You keep making that up to justify your attack on me.

You said,
“Is the God that you believe in the God of the Bible and if not is your God better?”

That is at least a civil question WJ. I learned about “my” God from the bible.
Subsequently, my God has shown me that He is better than how the bible portrays Him to be.
He is sorting out His true believers by who really knows Him and His character, in spite of what was written about Him.

You said,
“Does it anger you Tim to hear a Christian say that he believes in the inherency of the scriptures?”

I believe that you meant inerrancy, but I want to be certain that I am answering the proper question. It does not anger me for Christians to believe in the inerrancy of the bible.
I just think that they are deluded by what they are taught that they have to believe.
I am a perfect example of what Christians do to anyone that questions that belief.
It obviously angers you for anyone to not believe in the inerrancy of the bible.

You said,
“So I guess that I sicken you because I trust the scriptures without a full understanding of the God who inspired them, since I believe all of them. Is that right?”

This is not even worth answering again. You are off on some tangent that I never even insinuated.
You are obviously so blinded by your anger that you can not read what is said.

You posted my quote and then said,

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 28 2009,11:05)

It is that mentality that justified the burning alive of thousands of poor helpless women as “witches” in the minds of non thinking Christians.

And what is this but an insinuation that if I or anyone else who accepts the God of the Bible that somehow they condone such actions or are guilty of them?”

This is not an insinuation of anything of the kind. Do you forget that I call myself a Christian.
This is exactly what it says it is. It is a statement that Christians that were afraid to question their understanding of the bible felt justified in burning people because of their religion.
If they had know the true God they would have known that He would not condone such actions.
It is a fact that it happened, it is a fact who instigated it.. Do you stick your head in the sand and claim that these things did not happen?

You said,
“So I ask again Tim…

Am I wrong? Tell me Tim does it sicken you for me to believe all the scriptures including those where God brought herendous acts on mankind and even woman and children?”

There you go again WJ. You have made this entire post about something that I never even eluded to. I never, never, never said that it sickens me that you or anyone else chooses to BELIEVE the scriptures.
Get over it and quit lying about what I s
aid.

WorshippingJesus, you may get in the last word.
I will not reply to you again so fire away.
As I said in the beginning,
I consider it dangerous to have a dialogue with a person who misrepresents your words for their own agenda.
Tim

February 28, 2009 at 1:24 pm#123592

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 27 2009,22:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 28 2009,07:26)

The power of the scriptures in incomparable to the power of an anesthetic. How long would you participate in a message board about anesthesia, hmmm?

The God of Christ is a loving and patient Father longing for all to know Him.

Stuart

Stu,
My children are growing up in a different world than I did as far as world views. When I was a child I was read stories and I was told that it was a fairy tale, now elementary schools are telling the kids it is science. According to them, the frog really does become a prince…science! The princess doesn't have to kiss it though, just live long enough.

Is there a frog avatar or a glob of goo? Maybe you will be a prince someday or a god, then what…believe your fairy tale and hope for the best.

February 28, 2009 at 4:03 pm#123604

Lightenup

Participant

Hi all,
I think that once a person believes in error in the scriptures, all scriptures that do not support your belief are also considered error even when the scripture is consistent in the manuscripts and the idea is supported by other scriptures.

Heb 1:8-9

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
NASU

What I believe is clear in this passage is that the Father recognizes the Son as “Theos” and is at the same time the Father is the Son's Theos.

Some refuse to the death to recognize the Son as Theos, the Theos that has a Theos. And on and on it goes. Scripture is not reliable they say. And it never seems to end. If it is not one excuse, it is another. IMO anyway. The evolution of the lie that scripture is not inerrant leads to bigger and bigger lies until a whole new concept of god is formed within the mind of the one that goes there and then they end up with the god that is not the god of the Bible a variation.

February 28, 2009 at 4:38 pm#123609

Participant

Good morning, Keith.

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So questioning the bible and it's truths is degrading? I'm at a loss here….. Are you saying no one has the right to question anything between the bound leather? As for the listener's, I know quite a few who have been blessed by my questions – questions they wanted to ask but feared to for this very reason.

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Then there is IMO personal attacks on believers for believing such things about God that are written therein.

I have not personally attacked you.

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There will be a judgment day Mandy, and the scriptures tell us it will not be pretty. Just read some of Jesus own words concerning the wrath of God to come.

You would have to throw away 2 thirds of the entire Bible if you believe that terrible judgments of God will not come on humanity, and unfortunately many of whom we perceive will be innocent.

Of course judgement is coming, but not for those of us who are born again. So why are you so worried? Do you think that we can so easily be plucked out of His hand? Have faith, my brother. God is big enough to answer our feeble minds, and calm our doubts.

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Your warning is heard, and I appreciate your concern. But I do have questions that I am not afraid to ask our Father. There are things that I doubt, that I am willing to pursue until I understand them. I'm a bit stubborn that way. :;):

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Especially when we never once read of Jesus, the Apostles or church Fathers speaking evil of the scriptures. Do we know more than they? Are they not the foundation of the Church, Jesus being the chief cornerstone?

There were doubter's – Thomas is a great example. He doubted the living scripture – the written scripture followed. Had Thomas only been given the written scripture, he may never have believed. Something to ponder…..

But then there is this idea that speaking against, or questioning the scriptures is really speaking “evil” of the scriptures? I just do not see it that way at all. I think some of your ideas are deeply rooted in fear of punishment, but I could be wrong. Let me clarify that I love God, brother. Maybe I love Him even more than you? Only God knows which of us loves more. My questioning the scriptures is not some evil plot to deteriorate God's plan for humankind. On the contrary, I question because I want to know more and understand God more fully. I think most people want this.

In fact, I dare say that Tim is questioning BECAUSE OF his love for God! He loves God so much that he cannot bear to see him as a justified killer (for any reason). Sometimes it helps to look beyond the knee-jerk reaction to someone….

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Everyman is entitled to his opinion, but as believers we should stand up for what is right, and condemning the Holy Scriptures is wrong IMO.

I stand up for what is right. But the scriptures are up for debate, brother. Are you not aware of the many brands of Christianity out there? You must surely be aware that in a very small town there can be 4 different religions dotting each corner of the ONLY intersection in that town? And here is the kicker…..they all use the bible as their foundation for their belief system. So, standing up for what is right is a very personal thing. We should have more patience with one another. God is patient. We are not called to judge – ever. If you believe that someone should not question the integrity of the bible, you are going to be fighting scores of human beings that could otherwise be ministered to by your gentle guidance.

If you tell a child not to question…….the very thing he will want to do is question! :;):
There is no shame in this, it is human nature.

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Does this mean the scriptures are my God? No, I have a personal relationship with God, but I can say that there is nothing that I know about him that is not found in the scriptures.

I've said this before, but God is more than the dried ink. If you have a relationship with someone, you have more than their letter's to you.

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Someday it is the scriptures that we have committed to memory that may be the only comfort that we have if this world comes to the place where they no longer allow men to even own the “evil book” as they see it.

No, brother, we have the Comforter. If all the bible's were burned to ashes…..we would still have Him. Take heart, the written Word was given for introduction, but it's not the whole story.

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As long as men hate the scriptures then they will hate us for we believe in the God that is written about therein.

I can't think of one person here who hates the scriptures, Keith. I do know of those who are working with various levels of faith, however. And as for me, what can I say? I'm very childlike in my relationship with God. I ask a lot of questions, and some I have received no answers to. Do I stomp my feet and walk out of the room? Do I say it's not fair? Would a child act this way? Sure….. But it's not a crime, and it's not shameful. It's God's children wanting answers (and wanting them NOW!). Questioning scripture will not degrade scripture. Everything is meant to be questioned, otherwise how do you “test” anything?

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Th
e deep things of God are past finding out.

Again, we must end with this. We are in agreement, at last. I believe we actually share the same frustrations, in the not knowing…. We should have more patience with one another. We're both just kids trying to find our way. One of us is a bit more mature than the other. The imature one will ask questions and have behaviors that *seem* inappropriate at times, but remember our Father can handle it.

I do love ya, bro!
Mandy

February 28, 2009 at 4:46 pm#123610

Participant

My brother's Tim and Keith…..

I love you both very much, and appreciate you both. I hope that your relationship is restored for the encouragement of us all!

Love,
Mandy

February 28, 2009 at 9:42 pm#123663