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Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 27 2009,06:22) It is one thing to struggle with scripture but yet another thing to boldly degrade it. May God be merciful on them who do that if He so chooses. That is not a light offense IMO Blessings,
Kathi
Hi Kathy,
How big of an offense is it to questions the scriptures?
Do you think that is blaspheming the Holy Ghost.
Do you believe that the bible is God?I do understanding your defending the bible. You have a lot invested in it. But I doubt that you have any more of your time invested in the study of the bible than do I.
Tim
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2009,20:00) Hi WJ,
Yes but many prefer a god not written of in the bible, a trinity god.
Nick,You're acting like a crow, bro!!
Keith,
Wonderful post about all the facts of the bible and it's legit'ness.
But bro, I don't doubt that all the dudes working on the bible did the best that they could and had some level of success in keeping the copies clean. The fact of the matter is that there were and are flaws in the books. Period. Even just recently we learned about 1 John 5:7 – remember? What else has escaped all these scholars? What other scrolls will we find up in them there mountains?
Mandy
But I suppose we've moved off the topic, huh? I think there is a thread already for questioning the bible. But questioning the voice of God directly relates, imo, to hearing the voice of God. Considering most Christians feel that they hear the “voice of God” through the scriptures.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2009,05:49) IMO it is shameful for a believer to condemn or degrade the scriptures which contain the only accurate knowledge they have of salvation.
Hi Keith,Tsk! Tsk! {{the shameful sign of index fingers being rubbed one upon the other}}
Are you really saying it is shameful for a believer to degrade the bible?
To degrade the so-called written Word of God is only to point out things that make it's case less than a solid one. Why shouldn't we examine these things instead of trying to explain them away?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 26 2009,04:21) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2009,12:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 25 2009,12:34) Bro 94, Murder is murder.
Taking another life even for eye-for-an-eye is still murder.Justified murder?
Sanctified murder?Are these acceptable?
Hi Mandy:Murder is murder and He said thou shalt do not murder, but he also said that if you violate the law you will be punished. And so, if someone wants to do the crime with that knowledge, then there is such a thing as justice.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Justified murder, then.But the tablets didn't read, “Thou shalt not murder unless it is justified by God.”
How confusing for the children of God. They are bound to what is written in stone, but they also have to go against what is written in stone. It sounds to me like they were damned it they did, and damned if they didn't. Hmmmm?
No Mandy, not justified murder. It is not murder in this case but punishment for the crime that was commited.Quote (942767 @ Feb. 27 2009,09:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 26 2009,04:21) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2009,12:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 25 2009,12:34) Bro 94, Murder is murder.
Taking another life even for eye-for-an-eye is still murder.Justified murder?
Sanctified murder?Are these acceptable?
Hi Mandy:Murder is murder and He said thou shalt do not murder, but he also said that if you violate the law you will be punished. And so, if someone wants to do the crime with that knowledge, then there is such a thing as justice.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Justified murder, then.But the tablets didn't read, “Thou shalt not murder unless it is justified by God.”
How confusing for the children of God. They are bound to what is written in stone, but they also have to go against what is written in stone. It sounds to me like they were damned it they did, and damned if they didn't. Hmmmm?
No Mandy, not justified murder. It is not murder in this case but punishment for the crime that was commited.
Punishment in the form of murder.I'm sorry bro, I know you want to paint it pretty OR try to put it in a different perspective, but ya just can't. Taking a life IS murder.
If God struck them all down with lightning I might believe that He punished them, although much more harshly than would I.
He certainly had the power and the ability. He set a precedence with Sodom, and the flood.
But when a man whacks off the head of another man, especially an unsuspecting man who was not fighting to begin with, it is murder pure and simple.Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 27 2009,09:46) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 27 2009,09:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 26 2009,04:21) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2009,12:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 25 2009,12:34) Bro 94, Murder is murder.
Taking another life even for eye-for-an-eye is still murder.Justified murder?
Sanctified murder?Are these acceptable?
Hi Mandy:Murder is murder and He said thou shalt do not murder, but he also said that if you violate the law you will be punished. And so, if someone wants to do the crime with that knowledge, then there is such a thing as justice.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Justified murder, then.But the tablets didn't read, “Thou shalt not murder unless it is justified by God.”
How confusing for the children of God. They are bound to what is written in stone, but they also have to go against what is written in stone. It sounds to me like they were damned it they did, and damned if they didn't. Hmmmm?
No Mandy, not justified murder. It is not murder in this case but punishment for the crime that was commited.
Punishment in the form of murder.I'm sorry bro, I know you want to paint it pretty OR try to put it in a different perspective, but ya just can't. Taking a life IS murder.
Hi Mandy:I am not going to argue with you. If you want to accuse God of murder, then that is between you and God.
Those who wilfully violate the commandments of God will give an account to God. In the OT, it was sometimes by the avenger of the murder and sometimes it was by stoning.
In NT, Judgment will be rendered in the last day. But everyone inculding you and I will give an account to God for the life that we have lived.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
You did it again. You think that questioning the bible as falsely accusing God of commanding murder,
is accusing God of murder. You really can not see the difference can you?Tim
The bible claims that God commanded man to not murder.
Does it make any sense that He would then teach man how to murder by commanding
them to murder thousands of people.How cold, black hearted must these men have become after hacking to death mothers who were
shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their
misery by slicing them to death.I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.
Tim
Hi Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 27 2009,10:16)
I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.Yea and the attitude that I see projected toward the Holy Scriptures sickens me.
Apparantly you do not even believe Jesus own words concerning the writtings of Moses and the scriptures. With your view you would have to cut out maybe 2 thirds of the Torah. Did Jesus even once indicate YHWH was evil for bringing his judgment on the earth. Did he not also speak of future judgment that was coming on Israel (70 AD) and the future world?
I guess the book of Revelation is totally invalid to you. You say you have studied the scriptures, have you read of the plagues that “God” the God you say you serve will bring on mankind?
The passage you speak of is ambiguous and the writer I quoted makes a good case. But you can believe as you like just don't expect that this kind of degrading of the scriptures to not be called out.
You say that you know God is not that way. Tell me just what do you know about the Lord apart from the written scriptures? What is the difference in YHWH burning sodom and Gomorra (and all those little inocent children) with solphor than in all the other herendous acts of his judgment.
What is the difference in the God of the OT and his judgments than the God that you say you serve who has all power and all knowledge and all Love and stands by while far more heneous acts are committed on humanity (and children) today while he stands back with all of his power and love and watches?
But we have been there before.
You would be better off to be a “Diest” or an “Atheist” than believe that an all loving, all powerful God could stand by and watch all this evil happening when he has the power to stop it, in fact it would be better that he didn't create man at all if he knew this evil and suffering and pain would come on his creation, wouldn't it?
Or you can join the ranks and declare that his ways are higher than ours and that his judgments are unsearchable and his ways past finding out! !
Why even say you believe in the “God of the Bible” for it is obvious that you don't.
Forget what “You percieve” is evil, what good thing do you know about God that is not found in the scriptures or that you have not gained knowledge of God from?
Is there one thing that you can name?
WJ
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 27 2009,10:16) The bible claims that God commanded man to not murder.
Does it make any sense that He would then teach man how to murder by commanding
them to murder thousands of people.How cold, black hearted must these men have become after hacking to death mothers who were
shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their
misery by slicing them to death.I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.
Tim
insaneThe mental state is sown to refuse the logic as it defends a pile of contradictory writings that were submitted for god worshipers…
one of those books suggests blindness calls evil Good,
that could be narrowed down to HIDING WITHIN WARPED justice systems?… some how people believed justice to be enforced punishment. which really is revenge undercover… So Moses government then permits one, to politely to legally revenge his brother, where in a space all is made good and not looked upon as Bad or vendictive.
And today the governments murders soldiers in war, and see good as they kill….Hi Tim, Mandy, Charity & Kejohn:
I'll just leave this discussion with the following scriptures:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 27 2009,10:16) How cold, black hearted must these men have become after hacking to death mothers who were
shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their
misery by slicing them to death.I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.
You make a good argument here.
So tell me how your God is any different than the God of the Bible?
If you believe God is all-Loving and all-powerful then just how can he stand there in heaven and watch the evils being committed on the inocent today “hacking to death mothers who were shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their misery by slicing them to death”.
Do you think these things are not happening in the world today? And things that we could not even begin to imagine or mention here?
Why would God who is able to stop this not do something about it?
How is the God of the Bible any different than a Passive God that does nothing about the evil? He has the power doesnt he?
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 27 2009,11:27) Hi Tim, Mandy, Charity & Kejohn: I'll just leave this discussion with the following scriptures:
Quote 2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I appreciate you very much, you know this.
I firmly believe that God's written Word, and God's living Word can hold up under the most keen scrutiny. I also believe that God is up for his children wondering about the apparent contradictions in both. I do not think it is sickening to question God. He is our Father for crying out loud! If you cannot go to your parent and ask the hard questions, then who can you go to?
Thanks for trying to answer some of the harder questions. Sometimes there isn't an answer. Sometimes the only answers that can be given lend themselves to more questions. I guess we won't know until that Day.
Love,
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2009,12:45) Hi Tim Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 27 2009,10:16) How cold, black hearted must these men have become after hacking to death mothers who were
shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their
misery by slicing them to death.I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.
You make a good argument here.
So tell me how your God is any different than the God of the Bible?
If you believe God is all-Loving and all-powerful then just how can he stand there in heaven and watch the evils being committed on the inocent today “hacking to death mothers who were shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their misery by slicing them to death”.
Do you think these things are not happening in the world today? And things that we could not even begin to imagine or mention here?
Why would God who is able to stop this not do something about it?
How is the God of the Bible any different than a Passive God that does nothing about the evil? He has the power doesnt he?
WJ
The question isn't asked of me, but here is my plain answer.God commanded the aweful deeds to be done in the bible.
The deeds that are being done on earth are done by man and his own evil desires.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 27 2009,12:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2009,12:45) Hi Tim Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 27 2009,10:16) How cold, black hearted must these men have become after hacking to death mothers who were
shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their
misery by slicing them to death.I am sorry, it literally sickens me that some Christians think that is God's beautiful justice.
You make a good argument here.
So tell me how your God is any different than the God of the Bible?
If you believe God is all-Loving and all-powerful then just how can he stand there in heaven and watch the evils being committed on the inocent today “hacking to death mothers who were shielding their little crying infants, and then mercifully putting these little ones out of their misery by slicing them to death”.
Do you think these things are not happening in the world today? And things that we could not even begin to imagine or mention here?
Why would God who is able to stop this not do something about it?
WJ
The question isn't asked of me, but here is my plain answer.God commanded the aweful deeds to be done in the bible.
The deeds that are being done on earth are done by man and his own evil desires.
Hi MandyIf that is your answer and that is good enough for you then great.
But, God doesn't need us to defend him for “his creation”. He holds all power and authority in heaven and earth and owns all things doesn't he?
Many believe seperating God from the Bible is doing God a favour. He doesn't need our help!
So there must be a reason that God stands there with all this Love and Power and just watches that little girl get raped and hacked up and does nothing about it?
I have been in this conversation before and no one has given me an answer who doesn't believe in the God of the Bible but yet believes in a God of Infinite Love and mercy and yet he just stands there and does nothing.
How is that God any different?
How is the God of the Bible any different than a Passive God that does nothing about the evil? He has the power doesnt he?
Who are we but clay? God owes no one an oppology for his actions!
Can it be that we cannot begin to fathom an infinite God?
I think so!
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2009,22:10) Hi Kejohn: There is a resurrection from the dead for those of the OT who are saved, and perhaps, Jephthah's daughter was saved, and if so, he learned the lesson not to vow in this manner, and he will have his daughter again if he also is saved in the resurrection.
Empty promises. All we can be assured of is that dead is dead. If this story ever took place, we know a man killed his own daughter because his pride was great.
Could you do the same?
Quote But because God allowed it does not mean that he has accepted the terms of Jephthah's vow. You already said that, but you've failed to follow up. Here's the terms, if you want to take the bible at face value:
(1) Jephthah said he would sacrifice the next person to walk through the door would be a BURNT OFFERING if Jehovah gave victory.
(2) Nothing from Jehovah, but the victory was given. Thus, it appears Jehovah accepted the offer.
(3) Jephthah carried out his vow and sacrificed his daughter.Quote Frankly, I don't know why God allowed it, and so whatever you want to believe about it. He does not tell us why. Love in Christ,
Marty
It is sad that you call evil good.Quote Why would God who is able to stop this not do something about it? Why would a Father allow a child to get a painful operation and not do something about it?
To a child, there is no good reason for the tears. He doesn't understand the larger issue and all that is at stake.
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 26 2009,00:36) Kejonn…….It really doesn't say Jephthah's Daughter was burned up, it Just indicates she remained a virgin . A person could be dedicated to GOD, without burning them up. I believe She was offered up to God with a bunt Sacrifice and she remained a virgin and could not give Jephthah any grandchildren. This is the way i see it , i could be wrong, Vows are a very serious thing with GOD. But even then you couldn't blame God for something Jephthah did could you. IMO love and peace to you and yours……………………………gene
Gene, you failed to note some things:(1) Jephthah specifically said he would offer up the next person as a BURNT OFFERING for victory.
(2) Why would this event be lamented by daughters of Israel four days a year if it was just a perpetual virginity?
(3) Here is the Jewish interpretation (from http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15819/showrashi/true) for v39:and it was a statute: They decreed that no one should do this anymore (i.e., they publicized that no one should offer a human being), because had Jephthah gone to Phinehas or vice versa, he would have nullified his (i.e., Jephthah’s) vow (i.e., he would have instructed him what the law is in such an instance). However, they were particular about their honor, and as a result she was destroyed. Consequently, they were punished; Phinehas, by the Divine presence leaving him as it is stated in (I) Chron. (9:20) “Previously God was with him,” so we see subsequently God was not with him; and Jephthah was afflicted with boils and dismemberment as it is stated, (below 12:7) “And he was buried in the cities [pl.] of Gilead.” (His limbs were buried in the various cities.) We can also interpret “And it was a statute in Israel” as connected to the following verse.
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