God's voice

[WhatIsTrue]

WorshippingJesus,

You wrote:

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I see, so it’s going to be a pick and choose post. Maybe it’s just me WIT, but it seems to me that your words “dead horse” applied to my thoughtful and time spent post is a little patronizing and condescending.

No, that's not the case at all.

From my post on page 20:

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OK.  That horse has been thoroughly beaten.

My original reference to “beating a dead horse” was in reference to my own post.  I had said and re-said the same thing a number of times, and I didn't want to keep doing so.  Whenever I refer to “dead horse territory”, I am essentially saying that I would have to repeat my own arguments to address yours.

However, if you believe that I am short-changing anything, please let me know.  I don't dodge on purpose, but I also don't want to waste your time by retreading the same arguments.

You wrote:

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Quote This is a perfect illustration of the final point in my last post.  Let's look at that Abraham example. If a man/angel were to approach me and tell me that he was an angel of the Lord, and that the Lord wanted me to drag my two sons out into the forest and kill them, I would tell that man/angel to “go screw”, and that if the Lord wanted my sons dead, He would have to do it Himself.  Why?  Because killing my own sons, with my own hands, is beyond evil.  It is sick, demented, and dark beyond all imagination.  I would not think twice about whether or not God wanted me to do it, because if that's what God requires of His worshippers, then I can not follow God. Ok, so now we know your position on absolute surrender to the Living God. Don’t get me wrong but what faith are you of? Quote WWYD?  (What would you do?) I would hope that I would have the faith of Abraham. You see God had already spoken to Abraham and given him a promise… And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:5, 6 You see Abraham believed God and knew that even if he was to carry out the Lord’s command and “kill” his son that his God was big enough and powerful enough to not only protect his son from any pain or suffering but also could even raise his son from the dead. This is a perfect picture of the Father giving up his only unique son as a living sacrifice. If you claim to know Jesus and are saved then welcome to the world of the New Covenant, Christianity, because the truth of the scriptures is God gave his only son on the cross as the “sacrificial Lamb of God”, and his blood was spilled out for our salvation. You may not like these terms, but you are part of a blood religion, for “WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SINS”.

You missed my point entirely.  I did not ask you to put yourself in Abraham's shoes, or to explain Abraham's motives to me.  I asked you to respond to a very specific scenario.  There's no promise of a great nation to come, or anything else.  Use your own history with God, and respond to the question: What would you do if an angel of God asked you to kill your children?  Would you kill your children?  (Hint: There are only two answers – yes or no.)

My response addresses that very specific scenario.  If you ignore that, then you will continue to miss the point.

You wrote:

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Is this a game? What does “religion” and having a living relationship with God by faith have to do with each other?

No.  This is no game.  The quote that I have referenced twice now has nothing to do with a religion vs “living relationship with God by faith” debate.  It is entirely about religion/belief/faith/”living relationship with God by faith” as a mechanism for good people to do bad things when they let religion/belief/faith/etc. convince them that they are doing something right which would otherwise be clearly wrong.

This only becomes a game if you want to turn this into a debate about religion vs “living relationship with God by faith”.  That's not the point at all.  It's an unecessary tangent.

You wrote:

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So God chose men to write under the inspiration of his hand knowing that man would filter his truth through their limited minds and then call the scriptures inspired when in fact they are corrupted?

This is circular.  Who said that God intended for men to learn of his character through scripture?  The bible?  Circular.

What if God intended for people to discover Him through ALL of the tools available to them in their time?  Up until the 15th century, only a select few people were able to even read scripture.  Do you really think that God waited that long to make the primary way of getting to know Him avaliable to the masses?

You wrote:

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So then you do not agree with Jesus, the Apostles and the church fathers who spoke of the scriptures, quoted them and considered them inspired? Maybe you can give us some evidence that the eye witnesses or the church Fathers ever held your attitude about the scriptures. Maybe there is a church Father somewhere that claimed the Holy Scriptures as being corrupted. Call it a dead horse if you like, but you are in the wrong camp.

Jesus didn't write scripture, and it's not entirely clear that any of the original 12 did either.  Most of the bible comes to us from second hand sources.

To this day, there are disputes between the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant traditions as to what is inspired and what is not.  Furthermore, in the NT itself, there are references to books as scripture that no one in the mainstream of any denomination accepts – namely the book of Enoch.

You will not find a church father who lists all the books of the bible “correctly” until the third century.  Even then, it wasn't “officially settled” until the 16th century.

The illusion that the question of biblical inspiration was settled early on is completely false.

You wrote:

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This truly is sad that you can say that Jesus horrendous suffering by crucifixion was no sacrifice. I think you owe God an apology. Jesus suffered at the hands of evil men for no wrong by horrible beatings and then hung on the tree for 6 hours for you and your children. And you have the nerve as a believer to say that there was no sacrifice? Have you forgotten he was the sacrificial Lamb that was sent into the world by the Father for that purpose? Truly, am I talking to a believer here?

The word “sacrifice” is a loaded term, and I should not have used it to make my point.  I apologize to anyone I offended by using the term loosely.

The original question was about using logic as a defense against a muslim's accusation that God cruelly sacrificed His son.

From that perspective, I stand by my point that the imaginary muslim's accusation makes no sense, (i.e. is not logical).  The plan of salvation was not that Jesus would die – end of story.  The plan was that he would conquer death, and rule God's kingdom.  If the story ended at the cross, then the muslim would have a point.  In fact, it is in the Koran, not the bible, where Jesus dies in vain.  In the bible, God ultimately makes His son ruler of all.

You wrote:

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No he died! Then he was raised from the dead. WWYD, if that was your daughter or son and someone said “they just went through a lot of pain but ultimately they didn’t die?”.

If my son was slated to become king of kings and be glorified for all eternity, I don't think I would quibble with anyone about whether or not he actually died.  Though the process would be hard to watch, I think that I would be a pretty proud dad in the end.

You wrote:

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So where he ended up is supposed to diminish the tremendous sacrifice that the Father and Jesus paid?

No, it puts the sacrifice in perspective.

You wrote:

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This is very weak. Like many others when you do not have a response just throw a Trinity stone. We are not even talking about the Trinity. What does Jesus sacrifice have to do with your statement? It makes no sense.

No, I was not trying to throw a Trinity stone.  I was simply trying to make a point using your own frame of reference.  Allow me to restate the point this way:

If God had fully sacrificed His son, they would be permanently separated, and Christians would weep at the very mention of what Jesus did for them, (i.e. permanently remove himself from God's presence on their behalf).

Or, to put it yet another way:

If I told you that you had to sacrifice your son for the good of mankind, would you expect to hang out with your son three days later?

You wrote:

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In my opinion you have made one of the sickest and biggest insults I have ever heard against Jesus by diminishing the eternal price he paid for all believers to be saved.

Eternal price?  I think that's what you intended to threaten me with by quoting Luke 18:8.  What eternal price is Jesus paying?  To continue from the scenario above, if your son showed up on your doorstep after he had been sacrificed, would you continue to mourn his “loss”?

As for which one of us is sick, I await your answer to the question, “Would you kill your kids if an angel of God asked you to do so?”

[Stu]

What a really nasty way to carry on. None of this brutal narrative of speculation about scenarios of human sacrifice has any particular reason to be true. I for one reject the whole adolescent concept of religious martyrdom, and I especially resent it when christians try to tell me I can in some way benefit from the death of another human. Not in my name, and I seriously question what kind of person allows him or herself to be so deluded that such miserable brutality is allowed the status of sanctity. What kind of god needs his worshippers to approach 'him' via a judicial execution?

Stuart

[Not3in1]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

If God had fully sacrificed His son, they would be permanently separated, and Christians would weep at the very mention of what Jesus did for them, (i.e. permanently remove himself from God's presence on their behalf). Or, to put it yet another way: If I told you that you had to sacrifice your son for the good of mankind, would you expect to hang out with your son three days later?

Things that make you go, “Hmmmm?”

Pondering….

[Maranatha]

Quote (seeker2332 @ Feb. 22 2009,01:17)

So many people claim that GOD speaks to them.  Really?  In what ways.  Some people claim to hear HIM like they do you and I.  Especially the preacher in this day in age says, “GOD said this and GOD said that.”   I just don't know any more.  Does he still speak to us like he did Samuel and Moses, etc……  Does HE still speak today besides HIS word.  Oh, and Jesus spoke to Saul before he was Paul.   Please help out….

I have…..it's a different, quiet Voice than I hear when it's my own thoughts, or Satan, who I hear a lot. For instance, I was praying one day, and I heard, deep in my mind, quietly….”Come. Come to Me”

I jumped because it freaked me out-I was not expecting it at all.

God speaks to me a lot through pictures. One time I was very upset and crying. I got a clear picture in my mind of Jesus, sitting down, and Mary at His feet. All of a sudden, the “picture” changed, and it was ME at His feet instead of Mary. He was stroking my head, and the story of Martha upset in the “kitchen” because Mary was not helping her came to my mind. It was like I was really at the feet of Jesus at that moment, and He was comforting me. I had INSTANT peace. What is neat is that I have remembered that “picture” in times of stress, and it always helps me.

God speaks to us through the Bible…..have you ever been reading your Bible, and it seemed like something you were reading just “popped out at you?” It may have been something you have read a hundred times, without thinking much of it, but then you read it and it just really jumps off the page. That is God opening your eyes to that particular thing He is trying to explain to you! How cool is that?!!

[Proclaimer]

God's language is vision. He gives visions often when he wants to convey something to us. Our language ends up as vision. e.g., when I say red fish, you think of a picture of a red fish. When God says Red Fish, you will see it in a vision or a dream.

But God speaks to us in other ways. In a lesser way, he speaks to us by that which he created. When we look at the universe it tells us something about God. Sometimes God can impress a feeling so strong on us to highlight someone or something to us.

On one amazing occasion God spoke to me specifically and told me to do 2 things. The combination of following what he directed saved me from a car accident and possibly death. In this case, he spoke to me in words, but the words were not coming from the outside to my ears but from inside me toward my conscious mind. So strong was it that I knew I was conversing with God and he saved me from disaster.

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2009,16:28)

God's language is vision. He gives visions often when he wants to convey something to us. Our language ends up as vision. e.g., when I say red fish, you think of a picture of a red fish. When God says Red Fish, you will see it in a vision or a dream. But God speaks to us in other ways. In a lesser way, he speaks to us by that which he created. When we look at the universe it tells us something about God. Sometimes God can impress a feeling so strong on us to highlight someone or something to us. On one amazing occasion God spoke to me specifically and told me to do 2 things. The combination of following what he directed saved me from a car accident and possibly death. In this case, he spoke to me in words, but the words were not coming from the outside to my ears but from inside me toward my conscious mind. So strong was it that I knew I was conversing with God and he saved me from disaster.

If God is not a respector of persons, then why would he save you from a car accident and not another believer?

Just curious what your response to that is.

My sister just had $80K forgiven on her mortgage and she doesn't know why? She says it was the Lord that did that for her. But why would the Lord do that for her, and not for my husbane and I who are struggling to pay our mortgage?

I guess the answer is we don't know and God's ways are not our ways. That answer gets used a lot.

Thanks,
Mandy

[Maranatha]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 13 2009,17:54)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2009,16:28) God's language is vision. He gives visions often when he wants to convey something to us. Our language ends up as vision. e.g., when I say red fish, you think of a picture of a red fish. When God says Red Fish, you will see it in a vision or a dream. But God speaks to us in other ways. In a lesser way, he speaks to us by that which he created. When we look at the universe it tells us something about God. Sometimes God can impress a feeling so strong on us to highlight someone or something to us. On one amazing occasion God spoke to me specifically and told me to do 2 things. The combination of following what he directed saved me from a car accident and possibly death. In this case, he spoke to me in words, but the words were not coming from the outside to my ears but from inside me toward my conscious mind. So strong was it that I knew I was conversing with God and he saved me from disaster. If God is not a respector of persons, then why would he save you from a car accident and not another believer? Just curious what your response to that is. My sister just had $80K forgiven on her mortgage and she doesn't know why?  She says it was the Lord that did that for her.  But why would the Lord do that for her, and not for my husbane and I who are struggling to pay our mortgage? I guess the answer is we don't know and God's ways are not our ways.  That answer gets used a lot. Thanks, Mandy

I believe that we are all created to glorify God and get to know Him. I believe that everything that happens, whether it is good or bad, glorifies Him in some way…whether it is someone's response to what happened, or some other reason.

There is even a bible verse (I can't remember where-maybe Hebrews?) that talks about how God created Pharoah as a vessel of wrath, so He could be glorified by Him leading the Israelites out of Egypt. If He had not created Pharoah the way that He did, then it would not have happened……it was all for His glory!

Maybe God looked ahead and blessed your sister because He knew that she would glorify Him……

The same with the guy whom God saved from the car wreck. He is thanking God and giving his testimony to us, which glorifies God….

I know that when bad things happen to me, I'm the world's worst at “murmering” (complaining and grumbling) about it….but it normally works out for the best, later on.

For instance, the man I was married to years ago left me for my boss at work. I was devestated, and sure murmmered about pretty good for a long time. But God had a better husband picked out for me…..PRAISE GOD! I give Him ALL the glory!

Another time I got fired from a job. Boy did I ever murmur then! But God sure gave me a much better job 6 months later! PRAISE GOD! I give Him ALL the glory!

God has a plan for EVERYTHING that happens, whether it is good or bad….it's sometimes hard to trust Him when the bad things are happening though, but if we can glorify Him and let Him know that we still have faith and trust Him when good things happen to other people and not us, then He is probably pretty pleased about it.

[Stu]

When I post on the subject of the lunacy and misery of christian belief, you must believe that I am just honouring your god.

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 13 2009,17:54)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2009,16:28) God's language is vision. He gives visions often when he wants to convey something to us. Our language ends up as vision. e.g., when I say red fish, you think of a picture of a red fish. When God says Red Fish, you will see it in a vision or a dream. But God speaks to us in other ways. In a lesser way, he speaks to us by that which he created. When we look at the universe it tells us something about God. Sometimes God can impress a feeling so strong on us to highlight someone or something to us. On one amazing occasion God spoke to me specifically and told me to do 2 things. The combination of following what he directed saved me from a car accident and possibly death. In this case, he spoke to me in words, but the words were not coming from the outside to my ears but from inside me toward my conscious mind. So strong was it that I knew I was conversing with God and he saved me from disaster. If God is not a respector of persons, then why would he save you from a car accident and not another believer? Just curious what your response to that is. My sister just had $80K forgiven on her mortgage and she doesn't know why?  She says it was the Lord that did that for her.  But why would the Lord do that for her, and not for my husbane and I who are struggling to pay our mortgage? I guess the answer is we don't know and God's ways are not our ways.  That answer gets used a lot. Thanks, Mandy

Hi Not3in1.

God has different things for different people. When it is our time to come home we will go. When it is not and we foolishly got into a dangerous circumstance, then God may allow the actions of what you choose to play out, he may not. When danger comes your way without knowing about it, there may be countless times in our lives when he diverts that danger away without us knowing about it.

Every person is unique and every person is at a varying level of closeness or departure from God. People (even twins) are at different stages with many things. So all I can say to you is that there is no one single answer for everybody when it comes to things like this. God tailors his works toward us so that we all have something unique. That is is nature. Every galaxy, star, planet, moon, and rock in the universe is different. Every tree is different. Every snow flake is unique.

God made the earth a paradise. The moon is a cratered rock. Mars is an interesting planet, but it appears void compared with the earth. Why did God choose the earth to be the most interesting planet in our Solar System? What did the earth do to deserve such attention? Why does God do anything?

All I can tell you is that God makes each snow flake unique and we are more precious than snow flakes.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 14 2009,17:57)

When I post on the subject of the lunacy and misery of christian belief, you must believe that I am just honouring your god. Stuart

For someone who doesn't believe in God (and splits his belief either that nothing created everything or the universe has always existed in some form), you seem to want to talk a lot about this God. Surely it makes me wonder why you are so compelled to talk about something you believe doesn't exist.

Are you feeling threatened by the masses of people that believe in God. What exactly is it that makes you want to talk and argue about something you do not believe exists. And why do you even bother?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 11 2009,06:11)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52) If God had fully sacrificed His son, they would be permanently separated, and Christians would weep at the very mention of what Jesus did for them, (i.e. permanently remove himself from God's presence on their behalf). Or, to put it yet another way: If I told you that you had to sacrifice your son for the good of mankind, would you expect to hang out with your son three days later? Things that make you go, “Hmmmm?” Pondering….

But herein lies a secret. We shall not all sleep and when we are departed from the body we are present with the Lord.

So why would Christ need to be annihilated when we are not?

Death for us is but moving to the next stage of life or death, but it is not final death if death is your direction, until the second death.

Jesus sacrifice was suffering and death in the body. That is what happens to us too, but more than likely on a much smaller scale. Annihilation was not necessary so why is that even an option? It is not our option if our souls are saved.

It is kind of like saying “why would I pay 1 million dollars for a product had a price tag of 1 thousand dollars.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 07 2009,05:40)

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 07 2009,05:11) ……Murder is the willfull,vengefull,premeditated,malicious taking of life… As perpetrated by god, to take one example, when 'he' flooded the earth? Stuart

Stu, God has the right to create life and to destroy it. He is God, you are not. You didn't create life so you have no right to destroy it either. If you built a house with your own hands and money, then you have the right to destroy it. You do not have the right to destroy your next door neighbour's house. That would be illegal, just as killing someone is illegal.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 06 2009,11:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2009,11:54) He cannot be judged a “killer” (muderer) because he takes life, for he also gave that life. My mother gave me life. Would it be OK for her to take it?

She didn't give you life. She brought you into the world and because of that she has certain authority in your life. God still gave you life. All spirit comes from him. It is up to God who lives and who will not. But God has also said that the righteous will live forever. So we do have a choice here.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2009,07:42)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,07:38) WJ, Why would anyone encourage another to teach beyond scripture and risk the wrath of God? NH Does one have to totally agree with your doctrine to find encouragement? WJ

Actually he said “Why would anyone encourage another to teach beyond scripture and risk the wrath of God?”. He didn't say what you said.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 06 2009,13:28)

What is false doctrine?

Doctrine that contradicts the doctrine of Christ is false doctrine. Christ is the truth, and contradictory ways are not the truth.

Of course we free to believe in Christ, and we are free not to.

But if you say you believe, then pointing out false doctrine is a must, lest it take hold in other people and leads them astray.

If you don't follow Christ, then it doesn't matter at that point because you are not teaching in his name anyway and you can say what you like.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 06 2009,13:29)

ONE BOOK, MANY FAITHS.

Your words are not Christ's words are they?

Christ said his sheep would hear him and not follow another.

You are free to follow Christ or not. If you follow him, it will show in that you agree with him.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 06 2009,20:37)

WJ Why are you so untrusting of the brain and conscience that your 'god gave you'? Do you think your god is out to deceive you?

Stu, think of the brain as a computer. It can process information and store data. But the spirit of a person and morality is quite different. If you trust in the brain alone, then you will have no guiding light.

I am sure Hitler trusted his brain. He analyzed this and that, he believed in evolution, and he reasoned that blond blue eyed people had the right to challenge for world domination just as other forms of man have done before.

So where does trusting 100% in your own brain get you?

BTW, I mentioned Hitler so that means I have won this one. (NOTE: To the reader, the last line is a personal joke, not a statement).

[Maranatha]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2009,20:42)

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 07 2009,05:40) Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 07 2009,05:11) ……Murder is the willfull,vengefull,premeditated,malicious taking of life… As perpetrated by god, to take one example, when 'he' flooded the earth? Stuart Stu, God has the right to create life and to destroy it. He is God, you are not. You didn't create life so you have no right to destroy it either. If you built a house with your own hands and money, then you have the right to destroy it. You do not have the right to destroy your next door neighbour's house. That would be illegal, just as killing someone is illegal.

Excellent answer!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi WIT

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

WorshippingJesus, You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) I see, so it’s going to be a pick and choose post. Maybe it’s just me WIT, but it seems to me that your words “dead horse” applied to my thoughtful and time spent post is a little patronizing and condescending. No, that's not the case at all. From my post on page 20: Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,10:02) OK.  That horse has been thoroughly beaten. My original reference to “beating a dead horse” was in reference to my own post.  I had said and re-said the same thing a number of times, and I didn't want to keep doing so.  Whenever I refer to “dead horse territory”, I am essentially saying that I would have to repeat my own arguments to address yours. However, if you believe that I am short-changing anything, please let me know.  I don't dodge on purpose, but I also don't want to waste your time by retreading the same arguments.

Ok, Thanks for clearing that up. Since my answers to you will only be more of the same I am not going to beat a dead horse either. It’s obvious we will not agree so it would be a waste of time to continue. But I will answer your question.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 07 2009,03:26) This is a perfect illustration of the final point in my last post.  Let's look at that Abraham example. If a man/angel were to approach me and tell me that he was an angel of the Lord, and that the Lord wanted me to drag my two sons out into the forest and kill them, I would tell that man/angel to “go screw”, and that if the Lord wanted my sons dead, He would have to do it Himself.  Why?  Because killing my own sons, with my own hands, is beyond evil.  It is sick, demented, and dark beyond all imagination.  I would not think twice about whether or not God wanted me to do it, because if that's what God requires of His worshippers, then I can not follow God. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) Ok, so now we know your position on absolute surrender to the Living God. Don’t get me wrong but what faith are you of? Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 07 2009,03:26) WWYD?  (What would you do?) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) I would hope that I would have the faith of Abraham. You see God had already spoken to Abraham and given him a promise… And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:5, 6 You see Abraham believed God and knew that even if he was to carry out the Lord’s command and “kill” his son that his God was big enough and powerful enough to not only protect his son from any pain or suffering but also could even raise his son from the dead. This is a perfect picture of the Father giving up his only unique son as a living sacrifice. If you claim to know Jesus and are saved then welcome to the world of the New Covenant, Christianity, because the truth of the scriptures is God gave his only son on the cross as the “sacrificial Lamb of God”, and his blood was spilled out for our salvation. You may not like these terms, but you are part of a blood religion, for “WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SINS”.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You missed my point entirely.  I did not ask you to put yourself in Abraham's shoes, or to explain Abraham's motives to me.  I asked you to respond to a very specific scenario.

But you did ask me to look at Abrahams example, you said…

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 07 2009,03:26)

This is a perfect illustration of the final point in my last post.  Let's look at that Abraham example.

Then instead of looking at Abraham’s example of total abandonment to the Lord, you started ranting about how you would directly rebel against a direct command from the Lord and arrogantly telling the Lord he can do it himself. Maybe it’s because you do not believe God told Abraham to do it or maybe you are just being defiant, I don’t know, which is it?

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

There's no promise of a great nation to come, or anything else.  Use your own history with God, and respond to the question: What would you do if an angel of God asked you to kill your children?  Would you kill your children?  (Hint: There are only two answers – yes or no.) My response addresses that very specific scenario.  If you ignore that, then you will continue to miss the point.

I have answered the question, but apparently that is not good enough for you. Who says it has to be a yes or no answer? Were you there? You are asking me to give a yes or no answer to a hypothetical situation without any extenuating circumstances like those that surrounded Abraham. I can not tell you how I would react or what I would do if I had the experience that Abraham had. But I can tell you I wouldn’t take your attitude about it.

How about the Apostle Paul who was persecuting Jesus by taking part in the torture and killing of the saints when
Jesus came to him on the road to Damascus, and blinded him for three days and then totally turned him in the opposite direction.

Can you absolutely say what you would do if the Lord for instance appeared to you like he appeared to Isaiah when Isaiah said “Woe is me I am a man of unclean lips”? Isa ch 6.

Do you presume that you can stand in such glory and defy him as you say you would?

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) Is this a game? What does “religion” and having a living relationship with God by faith have to do with each other? No.  This is no game.  The quote that I have referenced twice now has nothing to do with a religion vs “living relationship with God by faith” debate.  It is entirely about religion/belief/faith/”living relationship with God by faith” as a mechanism for good people to do bad things when they let religion/belief/faith/etc. convince them that they are doing something right which would otherwise be clearly wrong. This only becomes a game if you want to turn this into a debate about religion vs “living relationship with God by faith”.  That's not the point at all.  It's an unecessary tangent.

But you ignore my point, that there are acts of evil that are committed in the name of God that are not of “True Faith”. Devils have faith and believe in God but that is not the same thing as a man acting out of “True Faith” or a direct mandate from YHWH, and not some presumption, but an absolute faith that is tied to a relationship with the living God. Do you believe there is such a thing WIT? A faith that goes beyond your reason and one that knows without a doubt the living God has spoken?

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) So God chose men to write under the inspiration of his hand knowing that man would filter his truth through their limited minds and then call the scriptures inspired when in fact they are corrupted? This is circular.  Who said that God intended for men to learn of his character through scripture?  The bible?  Circular.

And how is it circular, can you tell me “one thing’ that you know about the character of God that you did not get from or is not found in the Bible? I have asked this question and you haven’t answered it. Until you can give me another means by which we know his character then your point is a fallacy. If you say the Spirit, well we have seen how that works and saying that the Spirit showed you this or that does not invalidate the scriptures because the scriptures claim inspiration. So again this becomes a faith issue. You can choose to believe them or you can choose not to believe. So here is another question, what has the “Spirit” shown you personally about God’s character that is contrary to scriptures?  

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

What if God intended for people to discover Him through ALL of the tools available to them in their time?  Up until the 15th century, only a select few people were able to even read scripture.  Do you really think that God waited that long to make the primary way of getting to know Him avaliable to the masses?

Where do you get your information from? There were literally thousands of manuscripts available by the 2nd century. The then known Greek and Roman world were very educated and the disciples through the Spirit and both their own writings and the writings of the OT turned the then known world upside down! What do you know about God and his character from these “tools” or the “masses” that you speak of, that are not found in the scriptures? I find it interesting that you would mention “tools” and reject the greatest tool of all, The Bible. Of course you have said with your own words that you do not know if the God of the Bible is your God, so I guess I have my answer.

Remember, the Bereans “searched the scriptures” to see if the things the Apostles taught were true, not to see if they were false, and we know they were more noble.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) So then you do not agree with Jesus, the Apostles and the church fathers who spoke of the scriptures, quoted them and considered them inspired? Maybe you can give us some evidence that the eye witnesses or the church Fathers ever held your attitude about the scriptures. Maybe there is a church Father somewhere that claimed the Holy Scriptures as being corrupted. Call it a dead horse if you like, but you are in the wrong camp. Jesus didn't write scripture, and it's not entirely clear that any of the original 12 did either.  Most of the bible comes to us from second hand sources. To this day, there are disputes between the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant traditions as to what is inspired and what is not.  Furthermore, in the NT itself, there are references to books as scripture that no one in the mainstream of any denomination accepts – namely the book of Enoch. You will not find a church father who lists all the books of the bible “correctly” until the third century.  Even then, it wasn't “officially settled” until the 16th century. The illusion that the question of biblical inspiration was settled early on is completely false.

This is a diversion WIT, the discussion is primarily about the God of the Hebrew Scriptures, and the acts of God found in the Torah. (Although there are plenty of his horrendous judgments in the NT) The Hebrew Canon was settled long before the first century. Around two hundred years before Christ some 70 scholars translated the Torah into Greek, and it was available to Jesus and the Apostles. There will always be arguments about what should have been part of the NT Canon. 100s of scholars long before the 16th century translated from thousands of copies (as I have shown earlier in this thread) of the NT and in fact around 300 AD the Latin Vulgate which contained all 27 books of the NT was available. Unless you are a Hebrew or Greek scholar and have some kind of proof that the scriptures we have are a fraud then your argument is empty. This is why it is futile and fruitless to continue dialogue on a Biblical sight with “unbelievers” in the authenticity of the scriptures. For it is too convenient that when t
he scripture doesn’t agree with them then they can scream corrupt or as you have done here to question whether they should even be there. That is weak at best.

Why don’t you just answer the question? Do you know of any statement by Jesus or the Apostles or Church Fathers that speak of the scriptures that we have as being corrupt or takes your negative view of them? If you do, then please present your evidence, or else your argument is a red herring.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) This truly is sad that you can say that Jesus horrendous suffering by crucifixion was no sacrifice. I think you owe God an apology. Jesus suffered at the hands of evil men for no wrong by horrible beatings and then hung on the tree for 6 hours for you and your children. And you have the nerve as a believer to say that there was no sacrifice? Have you forgotten he was the sacrificial Lamb that was sent into the world by the Father for that purpose? Truly, am I talking to a believer here? The word “sacrifice” is a loaded term, and I should not have used it to make my point.  I apologize to anyone I offended by using the term loosely.

So do you admit then that Jesus is the “Sacrificial Lamb” that was slain, spoken of in Revelation?

For a Muslim that would be considered a human sacrifice.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

The original question was about using logic as a defense against a muslim's accusation that God cruelly sacrificed His son. From that perspective, I stand by my point that the imaginary muslim's accusation makes no sense, (i.e. is not logical).  Why doesn’t it if you tell him that God gave his unique Son to die for his sins? To that Muslim again that would be a human sacrifice. The plan of salvation was not that Jesus would die – end of story. The plan was that he would conquer death, and rule God's kingdom.  If the story ended at the cross, then the muslim would have a point.  In fact, it is in the Koran, not the bible, where Jesus dies in vain.  In the bible, God ultimately makes His son ruler of all.

Without his death there is no salvation or resurrection for him or for us. Do you believe Jesus own words when he says…

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and TO GIVE HIS LIFE A RANSOM FOR MANY. Matt 10:45

Jesus came into the world for this purpose. Of course it doesn’t end there for he conquered death as you say, but it seems to me you are diminishing his death simply because of his resurrection.

It seems that you are arguing that Jesus was not a human sacrifice, or that his suffering is lessened because of the resurrection.

What is a “ransom” to you? It is the price that God paid by giving up his only Son to die in our stead.

It is the Blood of Jesus that is the focus of salvation, and without it there is no hope. Just as without the resurrection there would be no hope. All the rest is simply a bonus.

The Muslim has a point, in that our faith is based on the shedding of human blood and in fact the eating and drinking of his body and his blood. Again,

“In fact, we can say that according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified by sprinkling with blood. WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD, THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS OF SINS. ” Heb 9:22,
And…

“Jesus said to them, “I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, UNLESS YOU EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, you have no life in you“. John 6:53

The Muslim would have a point.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) No he died! Then he was raised from the dead. WWYD, if that was your daughter or son and someone said “they just went through a lot of pain but ultimately they didn’t die?”. Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52) If my son was slated to become king of kings and be glorified for all eternity, I don't think I would quibble with anyone about whether or not he actually died. Though the process would be hard to watch, I think that I would be a pretty proud dad in the end.

So what are you saying? Are you saying if you knew that your son would be glorified as King of Kings forever that you would not fight to the bitter end for your sons life?

How is that any different than Abraham not fighting for his sons life but instead believing that God was powerful enough to protect his son and fulfill his promise to make his son a father of nations and that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed, no matter what God asked of him?

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) So where he ended up is supposed to diminish the tremendous sacrifice that the Father and Jesus paid? Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52) No, it puts the sacrifice in perspective. You wrote: WorshippingJesus,Mar. wrote: This is very weak. Like many others when you do not have a response just throw a Trinity stone. We are not even talking about the Trinity. What does Jesus sacrifice have to do with your statement? It makes no sense. Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52) No, I was not trying to throw a Trinity stone.  I was simply trying to make a point using your own frame of reference.  Allow me to restate the point this way: If God had fully sacrificed His son, they would be permanently separated, and Christians would weep at the very mention of what Jesus did for them, (i.e. permanently remove himself from God's presence on their behalf). Or, to put it yet another way: If I told you that you had to sacrifice your son for the good of mankind, would you expect to hang out with your son three days later?

Why do I feel like I am in a Sunday school class going over the first principles of the oracles of God? If Jesus sacrifice was not a “full sacrifice” then you would still be dead in your sins. Why did Jesus say “It is finished”? Paul the Apostle preached Jesus Christ and him crucified? The Gospel is not just about his resurrection but about his crucifixion. The sacrifice didn’t have to be a “permanent separation” for it was once for all…

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: “BUT THIS MAN, AFTER HE HAD OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER”, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. “FOR BY ONE OFFERING HE HATH PERFECTED FOR EVER THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED”. Heb 10:9-14

Jesus was the complete and perfect sacrifice once and for all forever.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

You wrote: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2009,15:38) In my opinion you have made one of the sickest and biggest insults I have ever heard against Jesus by diminishing the eternal price he paid for all believers to be saved.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

I think that's what you intended to threaten me with by quoting Luke 18:8.

No threat. Does it bother you when I quote a scripture? I noticed that you have failed to quote or mention a single scripture in all of your post. The only thing you have quoted has been a philosophical quote from Steven Weinberg condemning religion. His quote is not accurate for there are none that are good, not one, Jesus said so.

And again, he also said…

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, “SHALL HE FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH?” Luke 18:8

I think all believers including myself needs more faith, don’t you?

But then again, you haven’t told us of what faith you are of, another question you didn’t answer.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

What eternal price is Jesus paying?

 
You misunderstood me. He paid the price that is “Eternal”.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

To continue from the scenario above, if your son showed up on your doorstep after he had been sacrificed, would you continue to mourn his “loss”?

Of course not, but then I would not say to him, “That wasn’t so bad was it”?

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52)

As for which one of us is sick, I await your answer to the question, “Would you kill your kids if an angel of God asked you to do so?”

I have given you my answer now maybe you can answer a few of my questions.

WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2009,20:39)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 11 2009,06:11) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 10 2009,06:52) If God had fully sacrificed His son, they would be permanently separated, and Christians would weep at the very mention of what Jesus did for them, (i.e. permanently remove himself from God's presence on their behalf). Or, to put it yet another way: If I told you that you had to sacrifice your son for the good of mankind, would you expect to hang out with your son three days later? Things that make you go, “Hmmmm?” Pondering…. But herein lies a secret. We shall not all sleep and when we are departed from the body we are present with the Lord. So why would Christ need to be annihilated when we are not? Death for us is but moving to the next stage of life or death, but it is not final death if death is your direction, until the second death. Jesus sacrifice was suffering and death in the body. That is what happens to us too, but more than likely on a much smaller scale. Annihilation was not necessary so why is that even an option? It is not our option if our souls are saved. It is kind of like saying “why would I pay 1 million dollars for a product had a price tag of 1 thousand dollars.

Thanks for this perspective, t8.

Really, thanks….

Love,
Mandy

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