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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2009,23:54) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,01:30) WorshippingJesus wrote: Quote Hi Charity The Father was not the killer!
Jesus wasn't a beggar!
The Lamb is alive!
WJ
According to the logic that you have layed out in this thread, the Father was no different from the killers. Much like the man who stands by while someone gets raped in front of him, the Father stood by and watched His son get killed. He had the power to stop it but did not.
Does that not make Him a very strong co-conspirator – a co-murderer – according to your logic? (If not, then I think you might see Mandy's point a little more clearly.)
Just wondering.
WITThat is the point.
God cannot be judged by human terms or laws of morality that apply to man.
He is above any judgment and any laws.
He cannot be judged a “killer” (muderer) because he takes life, for he also gave that life.
He is the potter and we are the clay. He is the owner of his creation and can do with it as he wills and who can accuse him of wrong!
WJ
My mistake. I see your point. However, I feel compelled to point out that if there are no standards accessible to humans by which to evaluate God, then any god, no matter what practices or beliefs come along with that god, can be considered good.For example, Satanists can not be held responsible for their allegience to Satan because once they view him as God, then they can no longer stand in judgment of anything he says or does.
A better example would be a muslim. Why would a muslim ever turn away from Allah? Shall he evaluate Allah's “fruits”, (including the Koran)? Not according to you! How dare he try to evaluate Allah by human standards!
I guess that the larger point, (about how scripture portrays God's character), is better exemplified by the question in the slavery thread. (See here.)
I would be interested in your comment on that issue.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,22:21) Hi WIT,
To whom does God owe anything?
Even mercy is not deserved by anyone.
I am not sure what you are saying here Nick.My post was about the crucifiction. Are you saying that Jesus deserved no mercy from God? If he didn't, then on what basis did his sacrifice have any meaning? (In other words, if even Jesus deserved death, then what kind of substitionary sacrifice is that for the rest of us?)
If I have misunderstood your point, please re-explain.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,06:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2009,23:54) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,01:30) WorshippingJesus wrote: Quote Hi Charity The Father was not the killer!
Jesus wasn't a beggar!
The Lamb is alive!
WJ
According to the logic that you have laid out in this thread, the Father was no different from the killers. Much like the man who stands by while someone gets raped in front of him, the Father stood by and watched His son get killed. He had the power to stop it but did not.
Does that not make Him a very strong co-conspirator – a co-murderer – according to your logic? (If not, then I think you might see Mandy's point a little more clearly.)
Just wondering.
WITThat is the point.
God cannot be judged by human terms or laws of morality that apply to man.
He is above any judgment and any laws.
He cannot be judged a “killer” (murderer) because he takes life, for he also gave that life.
He is the potter and we are the clay. He is the owner of his creation and can do with it as he wills and who can accuse him of wrong!
WJ
My mistake. I see your point. However, I feel compelled to point out that if there are no standards accessible to humans by which to evaluate God, then any god, no matter what practices or beliefs come along with that god, can be considered good.For example, Satanists can not be held responsible for their allegience to Satan because once they view him as God, then they can no longer stand in judgment of anything he says or does.
A better example would be a muslim. Why would a muslim ever turn away from Allah? Shall he evaluate Allah's “fruits”, (including the Koran)? Not according to you! How dare he try to evaluate Allah by human standards!
I guess that the larger point, (about how scripture portrays God's character), is better exemplified by the question in the slavery thread. (See here.)
I would be interested in your comment on that issue.
Hi WITQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,06:07) My mistake. I see your point. However, I feel compelled to point out that if there are no standards accessible to humans by which to evaluate God, then any god, no matter what practices or beliefs come along with that god, can be considered good.
But we do have a standard and it is called the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures written under the inspiration of that Spirit.The scriptures reveal to us not only God and his standards, but also his name, so we know that by his name, his Spirit that testifies to the name, and the inspired scriptures we know that we serve the “One True God”.
I do not presume to know better than the men who talked to God face to face, opened the red sea, stopped the earths rotation, called fire down from heaven, escaped a natural death, killed a thousand men with the Jawbone of an ass, raised the dead, killed lions and bears with their bare hands, and who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens and on and on. (Heb 11 hall of faith)
These men and woman were eye witnesses to the “One True God” therefore I believe their report and the written scriptures over my own understanding, and do not presume that I can make judgment against their testimony for in so doing I would be placing myself above what is written, instead I choose to follow the Holy Spirit and the inspired writings of those Holy men of God even when it does not fit into my own logic or understanding.
IMO men who approach the scriptures with preconceived ideas or concepts of who and what God is, will always have trouble reconciling the whole council of God found in the scriptures.
Who can know the mind of the lord for…
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
Ah, but God has revealed his mind to his people through his Spirit and the written words and testimonies of those who were eyewitnesses.
IMO this is why Trinitarians have no problem accepting the whole council of God revealed in the scriptures, that is why we are Trinitarians.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,06:07) For example, Satanists can not be held responsible for their allegience to Satan because once they view him as God, then they can no longer stand in judgment of anything he says or does.
See above. Spirit, Name and Scriptures. Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,06:07) A better example would be a muslim. Why would a muslim ever turn away from Allah? Shall he evaluate Allah's “fruits”, (including the Koran)? Not according to you! How dare he try to evaluate Allah by human standards!
See above.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 06 2009,06:07) I guess that the larger point, (about how scripture portrays God's character), is better exemplified by the question in the slavery thread. (See here.) I would be interested in your comment on that issue.
Hi WIT
God can do as he wills with men. He sent his people many times into slavery because of their sin, so that he might turn their hearts back to him.Cultures, times, societys, laws, all play a part as to how God responds to man through time.
I do not have all the answers and do not pretend to, but I will believe all scripture as his written truth.
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,07:27) WJ,
The whole counsel of God does not include any trinity?
So why do you accept it?
Must you?
Hi NHA little encouragement every now and then would be better than a constant attack wouldn't you say?
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,07:38) WJ,
Why would anyone encourage another to teach beyond scripture and risk the wrath of God?
NHDoes one have to totally agree with your doctrine to find encouragement?
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,08:06) WJ,
We would love to walk with you but not your strange gods.
Nick,Please don't speak for me. I am a part of the “we” that you speak of, and I like to hear about other's belief systems. It's one of the reasons I visit this site.
Besides, we're not talking about the Trinity here anyway. Why do you always taunt Keith about the Trinity no matter what subject he is commenting on? I think that behavior goes beyond fighting/debating the truth, and spills over into the abuse category. If you remember correctly, that is why Ken got kicked off this site. I couldn't go to any thread and speak at all without him taunting me about the Sabbath. Do you remember that? It was deemed abuse, and he was asked to leave. Think about it, Moderator.
Thank you,
MandyWorshippingJesus,
Your faith is amazing, but your logic is quite circular.
You wrote:
Quote But we do have a standard and it is called the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures written under the inspiration of that Spirit. The scriptures reveal to us not only God and his standards, but also his name, so we know that by his name, his Spirit that testifies to the name, and the inspired scriptures we know that we serve the “One True God”.
A muslim “has the spirit” too, and they have a holy book which testifies to the trueness of their god as well. (Honest! Google any apologetic website for muslims.) What would you say to a muslim to convince him that he is serving a false, bad god that he could not say to you as well?
That you hear from the Spirit? So does he! (For that matter, so does everyone on this forum – with the exception of Stu – and there are few agreements to be found among the various things the “Spirit” is telling each of us.)
That the bible speaks of the true God? The muslim's “holy” Koran speaks of Allah!
That you have seen miracles of faith? So has he!
That people's lives have been changed as a result of faith in the God of the bible? He reports the same!
Now take a look at this:
“Forbidden to you are…married women, except those you own as slaves.” (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
If a muslim reads this, your reasoning, applied to his situation, amounts to this: If you believe your book is holy, trust it. Don't question. Just believe.
My question to him is this: Look at this passage. Is this befitting of good god? Would a good god allow a man to violate another man's marriage AND own the husband and wife as slaves?
Now, you might say that the Koran isn't holy, so a muslim shouldn't listen to it anyway. But how do you convey that to him without asking him to judge the foundation of his faith? Why should he take a critical look at the elements that make up his faith while your attitude is that none of the elements that make up your faith are questionable?
OK. That horse has been thoroughly beaten.
I will leave you with this quote that concisely describes my underlying concern:
Quote With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. Steven Weinberg My hope is that people do not check their brains at the door when it comes to religion, and that they will stand against evil wherever it may be found.
Nick, You didn't even hear a word I said, did you?
Sigh…… I best use my breath for breathing.
Have a good one,
MandyHi not3,
Yes for a purveyor of strange doctrines about stranger gods he gets the sympathy vote.
Watch out or he will start calling you DEARQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2009,11:54) He cannot be judged a “killer” (muderer) because he takes life, for he also gave that life.
My mother gave me life. Would it be OK for her to take it?Hi,
The angry voices of the assembled ants were not heard by the farmer walking that way.
The heavy boot ensured they will not be heard again.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,11:28) Hi not3,
Yes for a purveyor of strange doctrines about stranger gods he gets the sympathy vote.
Watch out or he will start calling you DEAR
I caught the “Dear” comment. I think Keith is from the south though, isn't he? Well, anyway, I'm one of these gals that love it when a gentleman calls them, “Darling”, or “Sweatheart”. I guess that's because my Dad always called me “Love”. I was a big time “Daddy's girl”. I really miss my Dad. He died in 92, just 8 months after I was married.Obviously Keith has a lot invested in the Trinity belief. He listed his credentials for us. But more than that, I believe he has seriously sought the Lord, as we all have. From the same book that we all read, he has seen the Trinity in scripture. There does *seem* to be some scriptures that back his case. It's difficult for us to say who is in and who is out, imo.
On that Day, we will know. But I doubt God is going to judge the way we do…. I'm grateful for that.
Hi not3,
Do you think God will be very broadminded about false doctrines that have caused men to be lost?
I doubt it.Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 06 2009,13:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2009,11:28) Hi not3,
Yes for a purveyor of strange doctrines about stranger gods he gets the sympathy vote.
Watch out or he will start calling you DEAR I caught the “Dear” comment. I think Keith is from the south though, isn't he? Well, anyway, I'm one of these gals that love it when a gentleman calls them, “Darling”, or “Sweatheart”. I guess that's because my Dad always called me “Love”. I was a big time “Daddy's girl”. I really miss my Dad. He died in 92, just 8 months after I was married.Obviously Keith has a lot invested in the Trinity belief. He listed his credentials for us. But more than that, I believe he has seriously sought the Lord, as we all have. From the same book that we all read, he has seen the Trinity in scripture. There does *seem* to be some scriptures that back his case. It's difficult for us to say who is in and who is out, imo.
On that Day, we will know. But I doubt God is going to judge the way we do…. I'm grateful for that.
Hi not3,
Patronising is the way of the whore's seductions.
But we have a Father.
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